What is WOF?

[rahmiyn]

 

[KingZzub]

It is simply believing the Word of God over your circumstances.

For example if your circumstances were that you were sick, a Word of faith person would read the Bible and find out it said "By His stripes you were healed."

When a doubting Christian would say: the Bible doesn't mean that because I can't see it, a Word of Faith Christian says: the Bible does mean that and I will see it.

Have a read of Mark 11.23-24 as those verses sum up what makes someone a Word of Faith Christian.

We all should be word of faith according to Romans 10, but sadly so many Christians let life and circumstances push them around and don't push circumstances around.

Blessings,
Benjamin

 

[rahmiyn]

It is simply believing the Word of God over your circumstances.

For example if your circumstances were that you were sick, a Word of faith person would read the Bible and find out it said "By His stripes you were healed."

When a doubting Christian would say: the Bible doesn't mean that because I can't see it, a Word of Faith Christian says: the Bible does mean that and I will see it.

Oh, I see. Yes, I can understand how "healed" can be interpreted many ways. There's so much in the New Testament that would direct one to believe "healed" actually means delivered from the bonds of sin, which is death.

How would you explain something that happened in my life. There was a time when i felt a great urgency to pray for one of our pastors for healing from a stage-nine terminal cancer, one that two different doctors confirmed, one of the doctors being his own family member. Twice in six months I was compelled to pray for him (with another friend who also had the same strong desire to pray for him.) His cancer was healed, and his doctors claimed there could be no other answer than this was a miracle from God.

But then, in another situation, I just didn't have the same faith. In the first situation, it was as if the faith was planted inside me, and I was compelled to pray in so powerful a way that I could only attribute the urging as coming from God.

In the other case, there was nothing. To me, this indicated God's will was not for the second person to physically survive the illness. She had great faith that she would leave this life and go straight to the Father's arms, and so she had great faith in this. But, none of us had faith for her healing.

How can you explain the different faith experiences in these two cases? Would you say the woman who was not healed was not taking the Word as the truth?

What would you have said to her?

 

[heatherfb]

I am just getting to grips with many of these concepts myself but my understanding is that in the second situation that you mentioned if it was the woman's desire to go and be with God, then that is what ultimately happens. God is a perfect gentleman, He never forces anything upon us. Even if you had been praying in complete faith that that woman would be healed, she herself can negate that prayer by her own contrary desires.

That is my understanding but maybe someone can explainn it better than me.

H x

 

[rahmiyn]

Thank you, Heatherfb. Maybe another situation I experienced might provide a more poignant example.

In the church I left, there was a young boy who was stricken with an aggressive cancer. He was only nine, and we prayed so much over him. Twice, we fasted and held all-night vigils in our church. His parents' entire lives turned upside down with his care. When he did finally die, the pastor told the congregation he was in so much pain he asked the pastor to touch only his fingertip instead of laying hands on him one final time in prayer.

What followed is in part what caused me to leave the church. Some began to look for fault in the parents, as so many prayed with what they believed was great faith. Whispers of rumors began to spread, that a poster he had in his room might have indicated his parents were allowing demonic forces in his life. Others questioned the faith of the parents, or the validity of their Christianity.

I was devastated for the parents. Not only did they lose their son, they were left terribly bewildered as to why their prayers were not answered, and then on top of everything else, they finally left the church under a cloud of judgment and suspicion.

It was horrible. But, how would someone in the WOF movement have handled this family? How would they have comforted them when "lack of faith" could be the only answer?

 

[KingZzub]

Oh, I see. Yes, I can understand how "healed" can be interpreted many ways. There's so much in the New Testament that would direct one to believe "healed" actually means delivered from the bonds of sin, which is death.

Maybe I should have made myself clear. Another aspect of Word of Faith is taking the Bible literally. When VW said in another thread that non-WoF people don't take the Bible literally, I thought he was overstating the matter (Sorry, VW!) Having reflected upon it I think he is exactly right.

Let me say this: there is not one shred of NT evidence that the word healing means anything other than physical bodily healing. Never salvation or restoration. Healing means bodily healing.

How would you explain something that happened in my life. There was a time when i felt a great urgency to pray for one of our pastors for healing from a stage-nine terminal cancer, one that two different doctors confirmed, one of the doctors being his own family member. Twice in six months I was compelled to pray for him (with another friend who also had the same strong desire to pray for him.) His cancer was healed, and his doctors claimed there could be no other answer than this was a miracle from God.

I would explain this first situation as an operation of the charismatic gift of faith (1 Cor. 12). In a situation like this the Holy Spirit fills you to the brim with faith then gives you an action to perform to release that faith (here a compulsion to pray). If you yield to the compulsion to perform the action, the faith is released and a miracle is received. It is a wonderful experience and a moving of the Holy Spirit as He wills. You have to yield to it and you can resist and grieve the Spirit, but you don't have to work it up or anything. It is easy - almost enjoyable.

But then, in another situation, I just didn't have the same faith. In the first situation, it was as if the faith was planted inside me, and I was compelled to pray in so powerful a way that I could only attribute the urging as coming from God.

Hence why I say this is the operation of the gift of faith. It was clearly a gift.

In the other case, there was nothing. To me, this indicated God's will was not for the second person to physically survive the illness. She had great faith that she would leave this life and go straight to the Father's arms, and so she had great faith in this. But, none of us had faith for her healing.

To me this indicates that God wanted you to grow up a little, spend a bit more time in the Word than you have done (and I am quite sure that during this time the Lord would have been trying to lead you into spending time in the Word) and not need the faith poured out on you via a gift, but you would have built your spiritual muscles to be strong enough to produce the faith.

You felt empty because you did not build up your faith through hearing the Word and speaking in tongues and meditating on the promises of God for healing.

You could have built up your faith and had a strong faith because of your feeding of the Word. I have a book Rivers and Wells by Benjamin Conway (Book) in Religion & Spirituality that will help you immensely in this issue.

How can you explain the different faith experiences in these two cases? Would you say the woman who was not healed was not taking the Word as the truth?

What would you have said to her?

I would have shown her the Scripture 1 Peter 2.24: by His stripes You were healed. I would have encouraged her to believe and confess that she was healed. Because the Bible says in James 2.24 that faith must have accompanying actions, I would have encouraged her to step out in faith and do something she could not do before.

I want you to know that my advice is not mere theory. I have seen people get up off their death bed. I have seen deaf ears open, I have seen people get up out of their wheelchairs and walk. I have seen many, many healings. The last time I preached on healing, everyone sick in the room was healed. The Word of God works and I have proved it experientially.

Hope this answers your questions,

Blessings,
Ben

 

[rahmiyn]

Thank you, Heatherfb. Maybe another situation I experienced might provide a more poignant example.

In the church I left, there was a young boy who was stricken with an aggressive cancer. He was only nine, and we prayed so much over him. Twice, we fasted and held all-night vigils in our church. His parents' entire lives turned upside down with his care. When he did finally die, the pastor told the congregation he was in so much pain he asked the pastor to touch only his fingertip instead of laying hands on him one final time in prayer.

What followed is in part what caused me to leave the church. Some began to look for fault in the parents, as so many prayed with what they believed was great faith. Whispers of rumors began to spread, that a poster he had in his room might have indicated his parents were allowing demonic forces in his life. Others questioned the faith of the parents, or the validity of their Christianity.

I was devastated for the parents. Not only did they lose their son, they were left terribly bewildered as to why their prayers were not answered, and then on top of everything else, they finally left the church under a cloud of judgment and suspicion.

It was horrible. But, how would someone in the WOF movement have handled this family? How would they have comforted them when "lack of faith" could be the only answer?

The same applies here? We couldn't have spent more time in the Word, fasting, praying, prayer vigils, on and on. How would you explain this?

 

[gennaoanothen]

The same applies here? We couldn't have spent more time in the Word, fasting, praying, prayer vigils, on and on. How would you explain this?

We walk by faith not sight.
The Word of God is above mans explanations.
The Word of God says the effectual fervant prayers of a righteous man avaieth much.
The Word of God says The prayer of faith, shall save the sick. James 5:15
The Word of God says Mark 16:18 Those that believe, in the Name of Jesus shall lay hands on the sick, and the sick shall recover.

The circumstances you have described, (if true), are not greater than God and His Word, you do not display a faith icon, take your words of doubt to some other thread, as for me I serve the Lord. period

 

[gennaoanothen]

When I pray for the sick, they get healed, in the Name of Jesus.

 

[rahmiyn]

We walk by faith not sight.
The Word of God is above mans explanations.
The Word of God says the effectual fervant prayers of a righteous man avaieth much.
The Word of God says The prayer of faith, shall save the sick. James 5:15
The Word of God says Mark 16:18 Those that believe, in the Name of Jesus shall lay hands on the sick, and the sick shall recover.

The circumstances you have described, (if true), are not greater than God and His Word, you do not display a faith icon, take your words of doubt to some other thread, as for me I serve the Lord. period

I do agree with most of what you say, I'm just not convinced the interpretations are right. But, taking your final words, I will leave this thread, and I will seek the Lord for his wisdom, as I do believe I still have lots to learn from Him.

 

[gennaoanothen]

Father,
I thank you that you grant to rahymin wisdom and direction concerning the promises of your word, may your Word be her guide, and only your Word. in Jesus Name amen

 

[KingZzub]

The same applies here? We couldn't have spent more time in the Word, fasting, praying, prayer vigils, on and on. How would you explain this?

You have just answered the question quite clearly.

I hold healing crusades across the United Kingdom and in other nations as well. I have seen many, many people healed of many, many conditions. Our next crusade is in Ilford (east London, UK) in August, and you are more than welcome to attend.

Often people come to me and say something like: "I have prayed, I have fasted, I have spoken the Word, I have had vigils, etc, etc. why am I not healed?"

And I tell someone who says that the reason why they are not healed is obvious. They are entirely focused on their effort and their works. They use the word "I" and "we" a lot.

Healing is not in response to how much we pray, how much time we spend in the Word (Only in the sense that time in the Word builds faith), how much time we spend fasting, or what posters we have on the wall.

It is in response to our faith: our belief that Jesus Christ paid the complete price for our healing as expressed through our confession and our actions.

I don't go into a pulpit and tell people: if you pray enough, fast enough and fight enough God will notice, take pity and heal you. I tell people the truth: Jesus Christ has ALREADY paid the complete price for your healing, and all you have to do is believe it and receive it.

Why did this boy die: because the parents didn't believe it and receive it. Should they take the blame? No - they are free from condemnation in Christ. Should we lie to them and tell them God wants another flower in his flower garden, or should we tell them the truth and make sure they don't lose another child?

Blessings,
Ben

 

[rahmiyn]

Why did this boy die: because the parents didn't believe it and receive it. Should they take the blame? No - they are free from condemnation in Christ. Should we lie to them and tell them God wants another flower in his flower garden, or should we tell them the truth and make sure they don't lose another child?

Blessings,
Ben

You know Ben? As a loving parent, I can't imagine we could say anything that would not make them feel condemnation and guilt. It is this part that I can't reconcile with Jesus' teachings on love.

The other thing that bothers me is how most of the apostles lives ended. They were killed. Why didn't they rely on physical healing, if physical healing is the assured end to all physical infirmity?

Why did Paul tell Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach ailment instead of telling him to believe for a complete healing?

Yes, I believe some people are healed. And for years our pastor taught a similar teaching you are teaching here. But when he was stricken with cancer, and after his initial healing it returned, he changed. I think it had something to do with the little boy's death too. He came to believe that physical healing, miracles, are God's way of planting faith among new believers. But as you mature, he said, God asks us to give thanks for everything that comes our way, because death is not something we always want to avoid.

But, for the parents, I will always stand firm that this particular doctrine ended up leaving them in despair. And I can not align with such. I would rather embrace death than risk being a part of hurting a family the way that family was hurt.

 

[KingZzub]

You know Ben? As a loving parent, I can't imagine we could say anything that would not make them feel condemnation and guilt. It is this part that I can't reconcile with Jesus' teachings on love.

I am also a loving parent, having 4 children, and I don't find this difficult at all. The truth is what sets us free, not falsehoods. I would rather know my child died because I failed to receive healing than be deceived into thinking that there was something wrong with the transmission. Because then I would blame God, rather than take it on the chin and move on with life.

I am not clear on why you cannot reconcile this with Jesus' teaching on love. When the disciples came ot Jesus (in Matthew 17) and asked why they could not heal a young boy who was epiletic, Jesus didn't tell them "I love you all loads and these things just happen", he said "because of your unbelief".

The other thing that bothers me is how most of the apostles lives ended. They were killed. Why didn't they rely on physical healing, if physical healing is the assured end to all physical infirmity?

This is a simple question with a simple answer. None of the apostles died of cancer - they were killed by other people. We are redeemed from sickness, we are not redeemed from persecution. We cannot apply the Scriptures that pertain to one topic to the other!

Why did Paul tell Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach ailment instead of telling him to believe for a complete healing?

Timothy knew to believe for a complete healing and was presumably standing in faith. Paul did tell him to have a spirit of power, love and sound mind, and that he should stand and so on, but I guess this piece of personal advice was just to make it easier on him.

If someone is young in faith, like Timothy was, I would have no problems saying while you are standing in faith against the headache, take a panadol. I wouldn't personally take one, I would rather just stand on the Word and receive my healing. Not that I have had headaches for years and years, I honestly cannot remember the last time I had one.

Yes, I believe some people are healed. And for years our pastor taught a similar teaching you are teaching here. But when he was stricken with cancer, and after his initial healing it returned, he changed. I think it had something to do with the little boy's death too. He came to believe that physical healing, miracles, are God's way of planting faith among new believers. But as you mature, he said, God asks us to give thanks for everything that comes our way, because death is not something we always want to avoid.

I wouldn't call that maturity, I would call that losing your first love and becoming luke warm. I can't stand how a lack of faith and lukewarm stands on the Word of God are marketed to people as mature Christianity.

The Bible says resist the devil, not thank God for the works of the devil. Anything that steals, kills and destroys you is from the devil (John 10.10) and you should not accept it.

Gloria Copeland defines heresy as any doctrine that calls you to lay down at the feet of the devil.

But, for the parents, I will always stand firm that this particular doctrine ended up leaving them in despair. And I can not align with such. I would rather embrace death than risk being a part of hurting a family the way that family was hurt.

You would rather leave them vulnerable to whatever attack the devil throws at them in the future.

I disagree with you that the doctrine of divine healing as revealed by Scripture is a pastorally difficult doctrine to present to people. However, even if your conclusion is correct you cannot use a doctrines consequences to determine truth.

If the parents had a 19 year old child die in a car crash who was a practising satanist, not a Christian, never been born again, died cursing and rejecting Jesus, would you tell them the truth about salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, or would you tell them something more palatable to help them through their despair?

Blessings,
Ben

 

[rahmiyn]

I am also a loving parent, having 4 children, and I don't find this difficult at all. The truth is what sets us free, not falsehoods. I would rather know my child died because I failed to receive healing than be deceived into thinking that there was something wrong with the transmission. Because then I would blame God, rather than take it on the chin and move on with life.

Well, I would rather blame my own lack of faith. But, I wouldn't presume on the parents because of their pain.

I am not clear on why you cannot reconcile this with Jesus' teaching on love. When the disciples came ot Jesus (in Matthew 17) and asked why they could not heal a young boy who was epiletic, Jesus didn't tell them "I love you all loads and these things just happen", he said "because of your unbelief".

Yes, he does say that, which is the part that makes me want to continue seeking him on that.

This is a simple question with a simple answer. None of the apostles died of cancer - they were killed by other people. We are redeemed from sickness, we are not redeemed from persecution. We cannot apply the Scriptures that pertain to one topic to the other!

So, you're saying that only physical illness is from Satan. Aren't those who killed the apostles led by Satan as well? Isn't this like saying we stand firm against Satan for some things and not for others? And why wouldn't "belief" ward off persecutions as well?

Timothy knew to believe for a complete healing and was presumably standing in faith. Paul did tell him to have a spirit of power, love and sound mind, and that he should stand and so on, but I guess this piece of personal advice was just to make it easier on him.

If someone is young in faith, like Timothy was, I would have no problems saying while you are standing in faith against the headache, take a panadol.

But, doesn't this contradict what you are saying below:

The Bible says resist the devil, not thank God for the works of the devil. Anything that steals, kills and destroys you is from the devil (John 10.10) and you should not accept it.

Gloria Copeland defines heresy as any doctrine that calls you to lay down at the feet of the devil.

When Paul was making it easier on Timothy, wasn't he doing what GC warns us against? And for the reason below:

You would rather leave them vulnerable to whatever attack the devil throws at them in the future.

If the parents had a 19 year old child die in a car crash who was a practising satanist, not a Christian, never been born again, died cursing and rejecting Jesus, would you tell them the truth about salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, or would you tell them something more palatable to help them through their despair?

Blessings,
Ben

I would say nothing and leave the final judgment of the 19-year-old to God. I would try to comfort the parents in their grief in any way I could. I really do believe it is okay to leave conviction at such times up to the Holy Spirit, as I have more faith in how the Spirit convicts a soul than in anything I might say.

 

[KingZzub]

Well, I would rather blame my own lack of faith. But, I wouldn't presume on the parents because of their pain.

People in pain are perfect? What a strange way of looking at it. Not saying that I wouldn't take responsibility - the entire church is responsible. Of course if the parents chose to go to a church where the Word is not preached clearly and without tradition, then there is a fault.

Yes, he does say that, which is the part that makes me want to continue seeking him on that.

Until he changes his mind? Jesus also tells Peter after he successfully walks on water that he had little faith, he tells the disciples who in a storm the first thing they do is turn to him that they had no faith, and he once called a woman who came to him for healing for her daughter a dog.

Loving people is not whitewashing the truth or softsoaping it. I am not saying we should not be compassionate with people, but we have to let people know the truth. I have had people leave our church because I told them the truth. God bless them I love them, and it was because I love them I told them.

If a couple divorce is God guilty for that? Is that just one of those things? Or would you tell a couple in pain that they were at fault in that situation?

So, you're saying that only physical illness is from Satan. Aren't those who killed the apostles led by Satan as well? Isn't this like saying we stand firm against Satan for some things and not for others? And why wouldn't "belief" ward off persecutions as well?

Suffering A Mixed Bag - Tree of Life Church, London. Let me refer you to this article on our church website explaining some of the different causes of suffering. You can stand against satan directly, but not against satan through another person because they have free will. I can provide a longer response to this, but not at the moment.

But, doesn't this contradict what you are saying below:



When Paul was making it easier on Timothy, wasn't he doing what GC warns us against? And for the reason below:

No, it makes perfect sense. What would make no sense is Paul telling Timothy to drink for his stomachs sake if the sickness or ailment was the will of God. Then he would be commanding Timothy to go against God!

I would say nothing and leave the final judgment of the 19-year-old to God. I would try to comfort the parents in their grief in any way I could. I really do believe it is okay to leave conviction at such times up to the Holy Spirit, as I have more faith in how the Spirit convicts a soul than in anything I might say.

So you don't see your responsibility as teaching the truth in love then? The Holy Spirit still speaks through men and women in love relationships with one another, that is why we must not forsake the assembling of the brethren.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[rahmiyn]

People in pain are perfect? What a strange way of looking at it. Not saying that I wouldn't take responsibility - the entire church is responsible. Of course if the parents chose to go to a church where the Word is not preached clearly and without tradition, then there is a fault.

I'm puzzled by this response. I can't find where I indicated "people in pain are perfect."

[/quote]Loving people is not whitewashing the truth or softsoaping it. I am not saying we should not be compassionate with people, but we have to let people know the truth. I have had people leave our church because I told them the truth. God bless them I love them, and it was because I love them I told them.[/quote]

But, I take how Jesus treated Mary and Martha when Lazarus had died. He did not say anything to them about their lack of faith or God's will. He cried. And then he brought Lazarus back to life. In the same way, I would cry with them, but I would not presume to know who was at fault, faith wise.

If a couple divorce is God guilty for that? Is that just one of those things? Or would you tell a couple in pain that they were at fault in that situation?

I have had people come to me before making similar decisions, in one case the decision was whether to have an abortion or not. And I always tell them the truth then, before they act. But, once they've made the wrong decision, even if it was against godly advice, I can only comfort them in their suffering. Yes, the pain they feel is a result of their actions, but I don't say that unless they are ready to receive it. I pray for them too, because I know the Lord can bring anyone to repentance, if they are willing.

There have been times when I've said their pain is a result of their decision, but I try to focus on God's forgiveness and urge them to repent, be forgiven, and go in peace. I have done that before too.

Suffering A Mixed Bag - Tree of Life Church, London. Let me refer you to this article on our church website explaining some of the different causes of suffering. You can stand against satan directly, but not against satan through another person because they have free will. I can provide a longer response to this, but not at the moment.

Thank you for the link. I'll look over it when I have more time. (Right now, I'm about to go run errands.)

No, it makes perfect sense. What would make no sense is Paul telling Timothy to drink for his stomachs sake if the sickness or ailment was the will of God. Then he would be commanding Timothy to go against God!

I do very much agree with this!! I would never tell someone that illness or sickness is God's will. But, I'm not sure why some prayers of faith result in healing (and has happened in my own experience), and some do not (which has also happened in my own experience--except I will agree that in these cases, I simply did not have faith.) Why was I able to have faith in one case and not the other? I don't know.

 

[rahmiyn]

Hello Ben,

I read the link, but the one question I still have is Job. How does one explain Job's suffering in terms of the different reasons for suffering the article points to. In a way, Job's friends all offered their reasons, many of which align with what is taught in this link, But God rebuked them (and Job as well!!).

How would you explain Job's suffering in terms of the linked article?

 

[tm2cruz]

Hello Ben,

I read the link, but the one question I still have is Job. How does one explain Job's suffering in terms of the different reasons for suffering the article points to. In a way, Job's friends all offered their reasons, many of which align with what is taught in this link, But God rebuked them (and Job as well!!).

How would you explain Job's suffering in terms of the linked article?

Guys I haven't read all your posts in this thread, I just want to read the last post... Hehe!
Anyway, in the book of Job I believe it reveals what is really going on in the spirit or invisible world. Some things happen because of the Devil. God has a plan for our lives and they're good but Satan have a plan for our lives too but they're bad. Troubles and obstacles are part of our life but it's up to us to trust in the Lord or curse God. If you follow God, He will not guarantee you will not experience troubles or oppositions. Expect opposition from Satan if you're following God. If you're not following God you will receive less oppositions. Psalm 23 talks about the valley of shadow of death, see the process there. It says "I will fear no evil", if you're in the valley of shadow of death you will experience fear.
If you want to point out the deaths, check the death of Jesus and His disciples. When Jesus died, the gospel spread more. When the disciple was tortured or died, the gospel spread more. You need to understand these situations in order for you to understand the theme of Job.
In John 12:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain."
Matthew 5:10-12 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."


It's a promise if you serve God you will surely face oppositions. Job served God I believe and it's up to Him to trust/seek God or not. That's the Word of Faith because we trust His Word. Word of Faith cannot promise you that you will live forever.

 

[KingZzub]

There are a couple of reasons. The main thing we must remember about Job is that Job was not redeemed from sin, sickness and poverty like we are. He did not live in the New Covenant like we do.

I have no fear I am going to be a modern day Job because there is no such thing as a modern day Job.

Another two issues are that we must remember that satan did what he did to Job. God didn't steal from him, make him sick or hurt him in anyway. Job did not have the authority over the devil that we have because he was not redeemed.

Secondly, God restored the fortunes of Job and gave him twice as much as he had before. Since Job was the richest man in the east before and ended up with twice as much, that meant that Job was richer than any two men in the area added together. Sounds great to me. If that is what it is like in the OT, imagine what it must can like for you and me in the New Covenant.

Blessings,
Ben