What is weight?

[mindlight]

I once saw a TV programme as a kid that zoomed out into space and then into the microscopic level right down to the swirling mass of atoms etc. It struck me that both out there and even in ourselves there is an enormous amount of empty space.

In the TE universe of big bangs and billions of years I understand one of the latest theories from scientists about mass is that it did not exist until the big bang and that the Higgs field was activated by the enormous energy release of the big bang and that mass was a response to the activation by this field. So people look for example for evidence of the "god" particle or Higgs Boson as a sort of left over from this field and a fundamental particle therefore explaining mass in the universe.

In the YEC universe I am a little less sure about how to consider this question. The easy answer is that God designed things the way they are and that mass is a response to his presence. But Christ demonstrated a mastery of the laws of physics by walking on water or ascending for example which seems to mock conventional understandings of mass. Also just appearing in a locked room seems to question conventional views like for example a thing less solid than another thing cannot pass through the first object.

Anyway I am genuinely interested in peoples thoughts on this question.

1) So what is mass?
2) Can the laws that govern the formation and constitution of mass be manipulated?
3) What does it mean to say a thing has weight, has more or less weight etc.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

1. Mass is a measurement of the resistance of an object to a change in velocity (speed or direction). An object will always have the same mass, no matter where it is. The SI unit of mass is the kilogram.

2. Not that I'm aware of, but I'm not a physicist.

3. Weight is a measure of gravitational force on an object. The equation for weight is W=mg, where W is weight, m is mass, and g is acceleration due to gravity. The SI unit of weight is the Newton.

This is all in scientific terms, of course. Colloquially, the term "weight" is often used instead of "mass".

 

[philadiddle]

But Christ demonstrated a mastery of the laws of physics by walking on water or ascending for example which seems to mock conventional understandings of mass.

I'll be interested in hearing from some of the more physics educated posters here too. But I did notice this one statement and found it rather odd. Why would Jesus mock His own creation? Or is our understanding of it so wrong that for whatever reason Jesus would want to mock it? It doesn't seem like that is what He was here for.

 

[washedagain]

What is weight?

Something I struggle with every day!

 

[mindlight]

1. Mass is a measurement of the resistance of an object to a change in velocity (speed or direction). An object will always have the same mass, no matter where it is. The SI unit of mass is the kilogram.

2. Not that I'm aware of, but I'm not a physicist.

3. Weight is a measure of gravitational force on an object. The equation for weight is W=mg, where W is weight, m is mass, and g is acceleration due to gravity. The SI unit of weight is the Newton.

This is all in scientific terms, of course. Colloquially, the term "weight" is often used instead of "mass".

I used the word weight in the title cause when you google on theological questions related to mass you usually get a discussion on transubstantiation. In more precise scientific terms what is mass would have been a better title. Thanks for the definitions which describe means by which mass has been measured and quantified. However I was also searching for an understanding of the origins of mass in this OP and some kind of perspective on how it should be regarded.

 

[mindlight]

I'll be interested in hearing from some of the more physics educated posters here too. But I did notice this one statement and found it rather odd. Why would Jesus mock His own creation? Or is our understanding of it so wrong that for whatever reason Jesus would want to mock it? It doesn't seem like that is what He was here for.

Yes and not only with Jesus . Elisha made an axe head float for instance. Phillip seems to have been instantly teleported from one place to another after talking with the Ethiopian, Peter also walked on water.

This defiance of basic understandings of mass implies a deeper appreciation not yet realised in any text book I have read

 

[philadiddle]

Yes and not only with Jesus . Elish made an axe head float for instance. Phillip seems to have been instantly teleported from one place to another after talking with the Ethiopian, Peter also walked on water.

This defiance of basic understandings of mass implies a deeper appreciation not yet realised in any text book I have read

But was this to show God's power over the laws of nature or was it to mock our understanding of nature?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I used the word weight in the title cause when you google on theological questions related to mass you usually get a discussion on transubstantiation. In more precise scientific terms what is mass would have been a better title. Thanks for the definitions which describe means by which mass has been measured and quantified. However I was also searching for an understanding of the origins of mass in this OP and some kind of perspective on how it should be regarded.

Anything that exists has mass. It's an intrinsic property of existence.

As for God defying the laws of nature in the Bible, I see two possibilities:

1. A miracle to demonstrate God's power over the laws of nature (as philadiddle said).

2. Hyperbole on the part of the Bible authors.

While God having a deeper understanding of nature is possible (even probable), there's no point discussing it unless God Himself chimes in, seeing as He's the only one with that deeper understanding.

 

[mindlight]

Anything that exists has mass. It's an intrinsic property of existence.

As for God defying the laws of nature in the Bible, I see two possibilities:

1. A miracle to demonstrate God's power over the laws of nature (as philadiddle said).

2. Hyperbole on the part of the Bible authors.

While God having a deeper understanding of nature is possible (even probable), there's no point discussing it unless God Himself chimes in, seeing as He's the only one with that deeper understanding.

God has substance but this substance cannot be equated with mass as we understand it.

God as Father does not have mass. God as Son has mass and also at the same time being God does not have mass, God as Spirit has no mass. Yet all mass exists only because God exists. So existence does not require mass nor is mass even a defining feature of existence.

Mass is a feature of creation but it is not its own origin. Nor is energy as we perceive it in this universe.

What has been made was made with a word of command out of the things which we cannot see.

If Christ is the origin of the water he walks on , the reason that it holds its properties in a coherent fashion,according to rules responsive to his person, then to walk on it, drink it or swim in it is his choice. We say a thing is a miracle cause it defies the way we have defined the world. But if our understanding excludes the Creator then it is false and we do not see the world let alone its maker as we should.

 

[shernren]

The Higgs excitation is not what you think it is. It is not condensed out of excess energy; rather, as the mass-energy density of the universe reduces as a result of the Big Bang's expansion, it drops below the Higgs threshold, where a phase transition occurs (like ice freezing out of water) which results in symmetry breaking as the W and Z bosons couple to the Higgs field (which gains a non-zero vacuum expectation value) while the photon does not.

This is more relevant to our discussion though:

If Christ is the origin of the water he walks on , the reason that it holds its properties in a coherent fashion,according to rules responsive to his person, then to walk on it, drink it or swim in it is his choice. We say a thing is a miracle cause it defies the way we have defined the world. But if our understanding excludes the Creator then it is false and we do not see the world let alone its maker as we should.

mindlight, do you believe that scientific laws are real?

Or to you are they only figments of our imagination?

In my house, my mum serves dinner at 7pm each day. Let's call this the 7pm rule.

Yes, she occasionally serves dinner at 8, or at 6, or sometimes we even go out. But the fact that she can do so does not come out of the 7pm rule: there is no hidden clause or secret phrase in the 7pm rule which we can say to make her serve dinner at 8pm as and when we please. Her serving dinner at a different time comes not from the 7pm rule but from her deeper identity as a free agent.

In the same way, the physical rules governing mass are real. Yes, God can bend them; but their "bend-ability" by God comes not out of the rules themselves - not, in other words, from anything accessible by us His creation - but out of His own sovereignty and His freeness.

 

[mindlight]

The Higgs excitation is not what you think it is. It is not condensed out of excess energy; rather, as the mass-energy density of the universe reduces as a result of the Big Bang's expansion, it drops below the Higgs threshold, where a phase transition occurs (like ice freezing out of water) which results in symmetry breaking as the W and Z bosons couple to the Higgs field (which gains a non-zero vacuum expectation value) while the photon does not.

Thanks for the clarification/correction......er....... I think ;-)

This is more relevant to our discussion though:

mindlight, do you believe that scientific laws are real?

Or to you are they only figments of our imagination?

In my house, my mum serves dinner at 7pm each day. Let's call this the 7pm rule.

Yes, she occasionally serves dinner at 8, or at 6, or sometimes we even go out. But the fact that she can do so does not come out of the 7pm rule: there is no hidden clause or secret phrase in the 7pm rule which we can say to make her serve dinner at 8pm as and when we please. Her serving dinner at a different time comes not from the 7pm rule but from her deeper identity as a free agent.

In the same way, the physical rules governing mass are real. Yes, God can bend them; but their "bend-ability" by God comes not out of the rules themselves - not, in other words, from anything accessible by us His creation - but out of His own sovereignty and His freeness.

The rules are not imaginary in that short of divine intervention they appear to work. But since we live in Gods universe the exception proves the rule. Also in the case of mass its possible that we still do not have wholly precise rules and understanding so it is right to look for continual improvement and revision of what we know

The free agency of your mother has certain limits while that of God is not so limited. Gods sovereignty is occasionally exercised through other agents than Christ for example the case of Elishas axe head or in the case of nature itself when the sun stands still, or when the waters of the Red sea part at Moses command. If one takes the bible seriously then with God our expectations should not necessarily be moulded by the socalled uniformitarian rules of science but rather by the fact that the rare and exceptional is not only possible but probable when God acts.

What do the rules about mass mean if an axe head floats or if the sun stands still or if Jesus ascends into the sky and beyond?

 

[shernren]

If one takes the bible seriously then with God our expectations should not necessarily be moulded by the socalled uniformitarian rules of science but rather by the fact that the rare and exceptional is not only possible but probable when God acts.

But when doesn't God act?

 

[mindlight]

But when doesn't God act?

If God is the origin of mass and if he behaves with integrity in all situations then it is clear that the rules we have applied for the naturalistic understanding of how mass works do not work.

It is the same God walking on water , making axe heads float, making shadows go backwards, making the sun stand still at the most significant human confrontation of all time at the battle of Gibeon, ascending to the heavens, and appearing out of nowhere in locked rooms as who lives and moves in the more normal and uniform events we observe and draw up rules for.

There is no energy, light or mass without God. Its not e=mc2 its e | m | c | 'other' according to Gods design.

 

[shernren]

If God is the origin of mass and if he behaves with integrity in all situations then it is clear that the rules we have applied for the naturalistic understanding of how mass works do not work.

And yet they do, don't they? You certainly act like they do.

For example, right now you are probably sitting on a chair as you read this. Why bother? After all, if God can make an axhead float on water, God can make you float on air, without any need for material support.

And when you go out for your groceries, how much food do you buy? You certainly don't buy five loaves of bread and two fishes and expect it to last you the whole year!

You may say that the rules don't work, but you certainly act like they do. Why is there a disconnect between what you're saying and what you're doing?