What is this healing by touch?

[Endure2]

caelum
you said

"blah blah blah... Case closed. ?"

thats what you chose to say?

i rest my case. your nothing but an arrogant child. it was never a challenge, i could care less about challenging anyone.



anthanasian creed,
i see why you believe the way you do, but i honestly feel like everything you said was either

1.souly people generated opinions.
2.irrelevant.

except for the scripture you quoted from phillipians 2.

but even that only shows how one man failed to be healed for reasons we dont know becuase it wasnt expounded upon.
it doesnt change the truth that the bible saying Jesus was wounded for my transgressions and bruised for my iniquities and by his stripes i am healed, puts healing in the entire new covenant, period. thats what im obligated to believe, not an unexplained experience of anyman, even an apostle.
though i know the reasons i showed as why i believed the way i do were sometimes only peoples experienced also,
someone being healed by touch proves it can happen.
someone not being healed, doesnt do away with that, only shows that under certain circumstances it doesnt happen.

i know of no scripture that truely teaches that any of what Jesus or the apostles did died with them. only one that speaks of a time when the gifts will be done away with, but it cant apply to this day and age for various reasons.

i do not believe that anyone has a seclusive gift of touching or anything today or ever did under the new covenant.
though i do believe that the power and gifts of God are open for all to come and have them today becuase paul the "gift" is given to all, and anyone who will obey God and receive it can walk in it.
you may choose to disagree, but such things like healing by the laying on of hands and passing through peoples shadows and the raising of the dead has been reported as recent as the last 2 hundred years and i believe that it is happening. i know of no reason why i shouldnt, except for my own ability to be skeptical.

what i do find the bible saying and describing is events very similair to people being "slain in the spirit" and the power of God being transfered by contact.
not anything that says that ever had to end with an age or the death of a person.

this has prompted me to go search a few scriptures im unsure of out some more, and i will post them i feel its neccesary.
but anyway... do you see what im saying?

you may not care for me too, but if youd like for me to locate and actually post any scripture i spoke of out of true interest and not just to prolong an argument, then i will try to do that for you.

Godbless.
Lee.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

(snip)

anthanasian creed,
i see why you believe the way you do, but i honestly feel like everything you said was either

1.souly people generated opinions.
2.irrelevant.

Sorry to disagree strongly about it being either "souly (sic) people generated opinions or irrelevant" It is neither. Having been a Christian for over 30 years and having been of the Pentecostal/Charismatic persuasion previously for over 10 of those years, i speak from personal experience on healing.

except for the scripture you quoted from phillipians 2.
but even that only shows how one man failed to be healed for reasons we dont know becuase it wasnt expounded upon.
it doesnt change the truth that the bible saying Jesus was wounded for my transgressions and bruised for my iniquities and by his stripes i am healed, puts healing in the entire new covenant, period. thats what im obligated to believe, not an unexplained experience of anyman, even an apostle.

You believe because of the testimony of Paul, the Apostle in question. I'd be VERY careful about comparing your beliefs above those of Paul or saying that his experiences somehow don't count. That would be very foolish - he was highly favoured of God, the chiefest of Apostles and the greatest Christian ever to live - not glorying in Paul but just stating fact. If healing did not cease to be in operation why did not Paul just lay his hands on Epaphroditus and heal him ?? Why did he also leave
Trophimus sick as well ?? (2 Tim 4:20)

though i know the reasons i showed as why i believed the way i do were sometimes only peoples experienced also,
someone being healed by touch proves it can happen.
someone not being healed, doesnt do away with that, only shows that under certain circumstances it doesnt happen.

You would have been more accurate to say that only IF God wills a person to be healed will they be and that there are some very Godly persons who died of horrible diseases (i referenced my mom in an earlier post) who loved Jesus and believed in healing yet were not healed. Ya, ya, i've heard all the rhetoric from certain Christians who would say that it was a "lack of faith" or "she must have had sin in her life, that is why she wasn't healed" Not only are such people setting themselves up as judge and jury of another person in violation of Scripture BUT are also undermining the faith the person does have and causing all sort of grief for the person not healed.

i know of no scripture that truely teaches that any of what Jesus or the apostles did died with them. only one that speaks of a time when the gifts will be done away with, but it cant apply to this day and age for various reasons.

And those reasons are ?? Jesus said the faithless and unrepentant seek signs and wonders - the just live by faith, even in times of suffering when it seems God is 1,000,000 miles away and the heavens are like brass. God can receive just as much glory from a saint who dies in sickness yet maintains their faith despite their sufferings as He does from someone whom He heals.
Satan in the last days will bring about "signs and wonders" by his pawns the Antichrist and false prophet. Those who put their trust in their experiences rather than the surety of God's Word will be open to the deception that will come in those days (which is even happening in these days we live in)

(snip) you may choose to disagree, but such things like healing by the laying on of hands and passing through peoples shadows and the raising of the dead has been reported as recent as the last 2 hundred years and i believe that it is happening. i know of no reason why i shouldnt, except for my own ability to be skeptical.

The question is not CAN God do such things (of course He can) but WHY He would do such things - what would be the need. I could perhaps see it happening in places where they don't have the Word of God - in order to authenticate the message of the missionaries but not here in North America where we have the Word of God.


what i do find the bible saying and describing is events very similair to people being "slain in the spirit" and the power of God being transfered by contact.
not anything that says that ever had to end with an age or the death of a person.

You will never see a place in the Word where a believer falls backwards in God's presence. The only place in the NT where someone falls backwards in Christ's presence is in John 18 when the officers of the chief priest come to arrest Him. All others (believers) fell down forward or prostrate on the ground.

this has prompted me to go search a few scriptures im unsure of out some more, and i will post them i feel its neccesary.
but anyway... do you see what im saying?

I see clearly what you are saying - it is nothing new to me - i've heard it all before.

you may not care for me too, but if youd like for me to locate and actually post any scripture i spoke of out of true interest and not just to prolong an argument, then i will try to do that for you.

I do care for you - that's the reason for the interaction. Please post away and by all means back up your POV with Scripture .


Godbless.
Lee


God bless you too Lee



Ray

 

[Endure2]

hello again,

well i hope you do understand that your time spent in whatever part of christianity, cant influence my belief in what i do, it simply isnt wise to let such things be evidence in deciding my truths.
i hope you understand.


the answer to your question about paul is simply that we do not know why.
but what we do know, is what the book plainly says, so that is what we are obligated to believe. if the bible says healing is part of the new covenant then it it is. paul was not flawless, paul had flesh too, he did not get everything right, his experiences should not be considered as irrefutable or God inspired as scripture. paul made mistakes too.

well i believe that God wills for all to be healed, period. i dont believe God picks who to heal and who to not. the new covenant applies to us all, and all our sins, not just some and some of our sicknesses.
im not going to criticise your mother or anyone else, but i dont serve your mother, i serve God and what he says, thats what im obligated to do.
why wasnt your mother healed?... i dont know. what i do know is what the book says, and that is you can be healed, so thats what ill believe, your mother wasnt perfect, the book is.

The question is not CAN God do such things (of course He can) but WHY He would do such things - what would be the need. I could perhaps see it happening in places where they don't have the Word of God - in order to authenticate the message of the missionaries but not here in North America where we have the Word of God.

well the obvious answer is, it doesnt really matter whether you see why or not. people in america are sick too, and bottom line truth is that God wants them well, regardless of why they arent. the not wise thing to do is begin to say "God shouldnt do this... becuase well that isnt a very smart thing to do..." were the ones who cant get out of the bed in the morning without God, i mean, we dont wake ourselves up.
if God can do something, then God can do something, it can happen, its foolish a petty human who God found choking in his own blood helplessly and saved him, to begin to say "THATS NOT GOD...BECUASE I DONT SEE WHY HE WOULD DO THAT.." i mean...THERES A WHOLE LOT THAT WE DONT SEE!
WE REALLY ARENT ALL THAT SMART....

you said that people dont fall backward, they fall foward or prostate...
well if you want to let such reasoning influence you thats fine, but no i wont.

you said it was nothing to new to you, youve heard it all before, even the scriptures i did not tell you that i had thought of...
well friend if you choose to assume you already know all that i have to say... im not going to comment on that... but... ok then.

while i appreciate your concern for me, i wasnt asking whether or not you cared for me, though thankyou.

 

[Endure2]

i thought i should post this.
i dont enjoy debating over scripture, becuase i have found that truth is not found by analysing the facts, but rather hearing from the Lord, so i do not intend for these scriptures to be a new oppurtunity for debate. but this is why i believe the way i do.

matt 9.18
...but come and lay thy hand upon her and she shall live.
mrk 6.5
...he laid his hands on a few sick folk and he healed them.
mrk 5.23
... i pray thee, lay thy hands on her and she, that she may be healed...
mrk 16.18
...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.
acts 8.17-18
then laid their hands on them, and they received the holyghost.
...Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands the holygost was given...
acts 6.6
...and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
acts 13.3
and when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
acts 19.6
and when paul had laid his hands on them, they holyghost came upon them; and they spake with tongues and prophesied.
acts 28.8
...paul entered in, and prayed and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
luke 4.40
...and he laid his hands on everyone of them and healed them.
luke 13.13
and he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight and gloried God.

i just really dont know anything else to believe, except apparently there something to this laying hands on people. they could have written that they just prayed for them and God answered it, but very often they seemed to carefully make note of the fact they laid their hands on the people, so it seems to be the laying on of hands had something to do with it.

now i know as well as anyone else, there are phonies out there, there are fakes out there, but it seems to me because of the repeated descriptions in the bible, that this is how the new testament church ought to pray and deal with sicknesses and other issues. when you pray for a person, the bible teaches to lay your hands on them, and that is part of the biblical procedure of ministering to the sick and needy through Christ. this is how the church fathers did it, this is how our Lord and example did it, it is certainly wrong to lie and manipulate people, but the bible does teach that their is power in the laying on of hands. Jesus told us in mark, that we shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover if we believe, thats the way he laid it out for us. if you could just forget the part about the hands and it all still work the same, then i dont believe the wise God inspired men who wrote the book would have repeatedly placed it in the scriptures.

Lee.

 

[LegomasterJC]

I am one of those that has experienced this (the true form not the telivised showy form) It is not because the Holy Spirit fills you that you fall down. Not all people fall down either. My dad doesn't my mom does. There are also scriptural refrences of people falling down because of the power of God. My favorite is when Jesus says I am to the soldiers coming to get him and they all fall down at once. It is the power of God that humbles people to the ground. When I am slain in the Spirit, I feel much peace and love. That is completely different than the falling to the ground caused by demons. That kind comes with tenseness and writhing and anger.

 

[*zilverlokje*]

I've witnissed this kind of healing once too.
My friend had been stabbed, so I layed my hands on him and prayed for the wound to heal. That night the wound was already starting to heal, it was less painful and the bleeding had stopped. Two days later the wound was healed, totally gone..... it was as if it had never been there.

 

[Endure2]

amen!