Discussion What is the sovereignty of God?

[lismore]

That would be all of mankind.

Yet all of mankind will not be saved -

any thoughts on Luke?

In the context of the passage, Paul proclaiming the gospel in Pisidian Antioch, it refers to those in that city who heard and responded to the gospel. Those appointed to life in Pisidian Antioch believed.

Re: Calvin or Arminius. I'm unacquainted with their theories and likely to remain so.
Re: WOF and healing, I'd rather not go there again.

A good starting place is right at the very beginning. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The creator did his work without assistance or advice from the creation. Nor was the creation consulted or given an opportunity to express it's 'will'. Nor was the creator diminished in any way by the process of creation. Jeremiah 18 is another good example. Have a blessed Christmas and New Year. God Bless

 

[whatisinausername]

What I posted is from a passage of the New Testament:

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48)

God Bless

That's a translation of a passage. You didn't answer my questions.

Do you believe God cannot choose to let people choose to accept His grace and be saved?

Seriously, can God offer a person a gift that they are free to accept or reject? Can He do that?

 

[Always in His Presence]

In the context of the passage, Paul proclaiming the gospel in Pisidian Antioch, it refers to those in that city who heard and responded to the gospel. Those appointed to life in Pisidian Antioch believed.

Then it is not germane to our conversation.

Re: Calvin or Arminius. I'm unacquainted with their theories and likely to remain so.
Re: WOF and healing, I'd rather not go there again.

It has ZERO to do with WOF and healing.

It has everything to with an example of God's will being known for a specific purpose - The Holy Spirit and Jesus both being present to perform God's will and yet God's will was not accomplished.

If God is Sovereign - in that His will is ALWAYS done - why was it not done there?

A good starting place is right at the very beginning. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The creator did his work without assistance or advice from the creation. Nor was the creation consulted or given an opportunity to express it's 'will'. Nor was the creator diminished in any way by the process of creation. Jeremiah 18 is another good example. Have a blessed Christmas and New Year. God Bless

There are numerous places in Scripture where God's will was known, but not done.

Go back to the garden - it was God's instruction not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil - yet God never one time circumvented human will and actions.


Scripture plainly shows that God's Sovereignty does not supersede human will

 

[Always in His Presence]

Mark 6:5 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.​

​

It does not say He would not - it said He could not. The will of God was prevented by unbelief.

 

[lismore]

That's a translation of a passage. You didn't answer my questions.

Do you believe God cannot choose to let people choose to accept His grace and be saved?

Seriously, can God offer a person a gift that they are free to accept or reject? Can He do that?

A translation of a passage is you answer you have been given. If you don't like this answer, sorry! But I'll leave you with another translation passage: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44) God Bless You

 

[jiminpa]

What if, in His sovereignty He honors our choices? It's the only thing I can reconcile with the Bible.

​

 

[whatisinausername]

In the context of the passage, Paul proclaiming the gospel in Pisidian Antioch, it refers to those in that city who heard and responded to the gospel. Those appointed to life in Pisidian Antioch believed.

Re: Calvin or Arminius. I'm unacquainted with their theories and likely to remain so.
Re: WOF and healing, I'd rather not go there again.

A good starting place is right at the very beginning. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The creator did his work without assistance or advice from the creation. Nor was the creation consulted or given an opportunity to express it's 'will'. Nor was the creator diminished in any way by the process of creation. Jeremiah 18 is another good example. Have a blessed Christmas and New Year. God Bless

A translation of a passage is you answer you have been given. If you don't like this answer, sorry! But I'll leave you with another translation passage: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day" (John 6:44) God Bless You

You didn't answer. It is very simple and can be answered with yes or no. Why are you refusing to answer a simple question?

Do you believe God cannot choose to let people choose to accept His grace and be saved?

Seriously, can God offer a person a gift that they are free to accept or reject? Can He do that?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Sovereignty means God can do what He wants within the parameters of His nature and His Word.
He is sovereign, but He cannot lie.
He is sovereign, but He cannot sin.
He is sovereign, but He cannot deny Himself or His own words.
He does not change and cannot change.
I have actually had people tell me to say God cannot sin is denying Him His sovereignty. But we know He cannot deny Himself.

The question is how far does this go?
People take the term "all sovereign" to mean "God is in control of everything." Yet as we look around the would we have to conclude that this world is not under the control of a benevolent, loving God. Children die of cancer. Catastrophes take place and killing millions. Atheists and unbelievers use this misconception as proof against the existence of God. They even take these facts and state that God is evil because if He is in control of everything, then it is Him doing these evil things to us.
Many believers use this concept to justify their own faith and spirituality. Something happens to them and they immediately state that God did it for some unknowable reason or to teach them something. In doing so they seek to justify themselves and their faith. "My faith is perfect, It was God who did it! And we cannot say why!" So they err on the side of their faith and spirituality, rathering to defame God.
The reality is that God is not controlling everything. He never said He was and does not want to. The theological ramifications of this false teaching are faith destroying and baring false witness against God.
Most things in this universe happen according to the "course of nature." When God created all things, He imparted a portion of His power and sovereignty into the thing created. The thing created exists and can interact with other things in creation.

Example.

At rock exists on the side of a hill. Over the "course of nature" weather and erosion cause the rock to be loosed. The rock rolls down the hill and bonks someone on the head. Did God control this process and cause the person to be hit? I think not. It was fate and circumstance. It was like a billion other natural occurrences that happen every day. If the rock hits someone we call it an "accident." It was not intended by anyone including God. Did God know it was going to happen? Some "open theists" might say no. I think He did know it was going to happen but He did not stop it from happening either. Some will then say He "allowed" to happen as if this somehow implicates Him in the event. In truth this happened "by course of nature" along with a billion other things that occur every day. In this free creation, anything is "allowed" to happen by course of nature. Because anything can happen, any one event does not have any significance when it comes to God or His will. He allows everything to happen. God does not orchestrate or authenticate all the things that do happen. The best we can say is that God's involvement with His creation is mainly one of intervention. When He acts it is to intervene against things. Simple observation shows He does not intervene all the time, and in fact, His non-intervention is the rule not the exception.

1. Salvation is an intervention against the universal state of being lost.
2. Healing is an intervention against sickness.
3. Resurrection is an intervention against death.

In this fallen and falling creation, lostness, sickness, and death are par for the course of nature.
God is not the cause of the lostness, the sickness, or death. He is the savior intervening against these things. The language and the context of the Bible shows God is an intervener, not the cause. He is the shield against the arrows, the tower against the enemy, the healer against the sickness. He is not saving us from His own actions. He is not killing us only to raise us up.
He is sovereign and can intervene when that intervention does not contradict His nature and His word. It is evident that He does not always intervene.

 

[whatisinausername]

Sovereignty means God can do what He wants within the parameters of His nature and His Word.
He is sovereign, but He cannot lie.
He is sovereign, but He cannot sin.
He is sovereign, but He cannot deny Himself or His own words.
He does not change and cannot change.
I have actually had people tell me to say God cannot sin is denying Him His sovereignty. But we know He cannot deny Himself.

The question is how far does this go?
People take the term "all sovereign" to mean "God is in control of everything." Yet as we look around the would we have to conclude that this world is not under the control of a benevolent, loving God. Children die of cancer. Catastrophes take place and killing millions. Atheists and unbelievers use this misconception as proof against the existence of God. They even take these facts and state that God is evil because if He is in control of everything, then it is Him doing these evil things to us.
Many believers use this concept to justify their own faith and spirituality. Something happens to them and they immediately state that God did it for some unknowable reason or to teach them something. In doing so they seek to justify themselves and their faith. "My faith is perfect, It was God who did it! And we cannot say why!" So they err on the side of their faith and spirituality, rathering to defame God.
The reality is that God is not controlling everything. He never said He was and does not want to. The theological ramifications of this false teaching are faith destroying and baring false witness against God.
Most things in this universe happen according to the "course of nature." When God created all things, He imparted a portion of His power and sovereignty into the thing created. The thing created exists and can interact with other things in creation.

Example.

At rock exists on the side of a hill. Over the "course of nature" weather and erosion cause the rock to be loosed. The rock rolls down the hill and bonks someone on the head. Did God control this process and cause the person to be hit? I think not. It was fate and circumstance. It was like a billion other natural occurrences that happen every day. If the rock hits someone we call it an "accident." It was not intended by anyone including God. Did God know it was going to happen? Some "open theists" might say no. I think He did know it was going to happen but He did not stop it from happening either. Some will then say He "allowed" to happen as if this somehow implicates Him in the event. In truth this happened "by course of nature" along with a billion other things that occur every day. In this free creation, anything is "allowed" to happen by course of nature. Because anything can happen, any one event does not have any significance when it comes to God or His will. He allows everything to happen. God does not orchestrate or authenticate all the things that do happen. The best we can say is that God's involvement with His creation is mainly one of intervention. When He acts it is to intervene against things. Simple observation shows He does not intervene all the time, and in fact, His non-intervention is the rule not the exception.

1. Salvation is an intervention against the universal state of being lost.
2. Healing is an intervention against sickness.
3. Resurrection is an intervention against death.

In this fallen and falling creation, lostness, sickness, and death are par for the course of nature.
God is not the cause of the lostness, the sickness, or death. He is the savior intervening against these things. The language and the context of the Bible shows God is an intervener, not the cause. He is the shield against the arrows, the tower against the enemy, the healer against the sickness. He is not saving us from His own actions. He is not killing us only to raise us up.
He is sovereign and can intervene when that intervention does not contradict His nature and His word. It is evident that He does not always intervene.

Do you believe God cannot choose to let people choose to accept His grace and be saved?

Seriously, can God offer a person a gift that they are free to accept or reject? Can He do that?

 

[jiminpa]

Amen - He is Holy - If God's will is always done - how can we oppress it?

The Armenian/Calvinist dilemma -

Let me ask a different way. If God's sovereignty means that His will is always done -

Luke 5:17 17 Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.​

Here we have Jesus with a house full of people who were in need of healing. Jesus, anointed with the Holy Spirit in the house and scripture clearly states the will of God in that the "Power of the Lord was present to heal them". Yet none of them were healed.

If God's sovereignty means His will always done - why were none of them healed?

Why do we have to limit it to these 2 equally unbiblical philosophies? Why can't someone fall into the "I see this in the Bible," camp?

It's kind of like someone who sees that the Bible says that God is one, actually, factually and in practice, one, period, but yet He is also Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. That person is not really either trinitarian or oneness, but each would label him as the other.

 

[jiminpa]

Explain it to a 12 year old? I can't even explain it to myself.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Why do we have to limit it to these 2 equally unbiblical philosophies? Why can't someone fall into the "I see this in the Bible," camp?

It's kind of like someone who sees that the Bible says that God is one, actually, factually and in practice, one, period, but yet He is also Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. That person is not really either trinitarian or oneness, but each would label him as the other.

Did say either was correct or incorrect?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"If God's sovereignty means His will always done - why were none of them healed?"
The scripture says that the one who comes to God must "Believe that He is AND that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him."
Ask you average Christian if they believe this. "Do you believe that God is always a rewarder? Does He always answer your prayers?"
If they respond with anything other than a resounding "Yes" then you have your answer. They simple do not believe He is always going to heal. There is always some reason why He might not do it. They all acknowledge that He can, He just will not heal them. So the will of God is not always done. He wants us healed and saved in every way we can be saved. Jesus did everything necessary to accomplish that goal. Everything is included in the atonement. Failure to recognize this will hinder our faith. We just do not think He will. So we get what we believe. Hit and miss. Somethings yes, somethings no.
It is never a failure on the part of God. People perish for a lack of knowledge. In this case, the lack of knowledge is about His will to save, heal, and deliver us all.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Explain it to a 12 year old? I can't even explain it to myself.

Thank you saint.
I think there is a prevailing notion among believers that the truth about God is beyond our ability to perceive.
In one way I think this is true, at least in regards to the volume and scope of that knowledge. There is just to much "data" for our little minds to receive.
But in another way I disagree. The nature of the truth about God is not beyond our ability to perceive and receive. There is nothing about the knowledge of God, that is the nature of the information, that cannot be understood. God makes perfect sense. There is no illogic in God. Everything about Him and everything He says and does makes perfect sense. There is nothing regarding the truth about God that renders it beyond our ability to understand. Logic and truth is logical and truthful, regardless of what mind holds that truth. That being said, we can understand God, His word, and His ways. He makes sense. The roadblocks are two.
First we do not have all the information. There are mysteries about God and spiritual things that we do not possess. Mysteries are merely hidden truths. They are not truths that cannot be understood. We just do not have the information yet. Once received, that information will fit in with all the other truths we have received. No contradictions. No more "this is truth yet it is not truth."
Second, We need to understand that there are no contradictions in these truths. In theology we constantly hear the phrase "This is something yet it is not." Usually this is a tool of teachers who have contradictions in their teachings that they cannot resolve, so they try to make opposite elements true at the same time. A little Jedi mind trick if you will. That does not work. If you hear that phrase "this is truth yet at the same time the opposite is true," then take note.
On a side note of interest about unity. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals truth into our spirits. Everything He reveals make sense and there are no contradictions. Everything He reveals into my spirit will not contradict anything He reveals into your spirit. So in our spirits there is perfect unity. If contradictions occur, it is on the soulical or mental level. Once we all renew our minds with the contents of our spirits, then we will all be in unity in both spirit and soul. But it is a happy thing to know we all agree in our spirits. My spirit may not have all the truth that yours does, and your spirit may not have all the truth as my spirit, but what truth we both share, it is the same. No disunity at all. All these disagreements and arguments we see on CF and elsewhere exist on the soulical level.
So finally, to your statement about truth to a 12 year old. If people hold that God cannot be understood, or that He is "too big to be understood," then how can we explain it to another adult much less a child. They make it impossible to share unity in faith when we cannot even express that belief between each other?
Ultimately, if we hold that God cannot be understood and cannot be known, then we must ask if Jesus failed in His declared mission to show us the Father. I believe He did and He was successful.
Peace in Him

 

[jiminpa]

Thank you saint.
I think there is a prevailing notion among believers that the truth about God is beyond our ability to perceive.
In one way I think this is true, at least in regards to the volume and scope of that knowledge. There is just to much "data" for our little minds to receive.
But in another way I disagree. The nature of the truth about God is not beyond our ability to perceive and receive. There is nothing about the knowledge of God, that is the nature of the information, that cannot be understood. God makes perfect sense. There is no illogic in God. Everything about Him and everything He says and does makes perfect sense. There is nothing regarding the truth about God that renders it beyond our ability to understand. Logic and truth is logical and truthful, regardless of what mind holds that truth. That being said, we can understand God, His word, and His ways. He makes sense. The roadblocks are two.
First we do not have all the information. There are mysteries about God and spiritual things that we do not possess. Mysteries are merely hidden truths. They are not truths that cannot be understood. We just do not have the information yet. Once received, that information will fit in with all the other truths we have received. No contradictions. No more "this is truth yet it is not truth."
Second, We need to understand that there are no contradictions in these truths. In theology we constantly hear the phrase "This is something yet it is not." Usually this is a tool of teachers who have contradictions in their teachings that they cannot resolve, so they try to make opposite elements true at the same time. A little Jedi mind trick if you will. That does not work. If you hear that phrase "this is truth yet at the same time the opposite is true," then take note.
On a side note of interest about unity. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals truth into our spirits. Everything He reveals make sense and there are no contradictions. Everything He reveals into my spirit will not contradict anything He reveals into your spirit. So in our spirits there is perfect unity. If contradictions occur, it is on the soulical or mental level. Once we all renew our minds with the contents of our spirits, then we will all be in unity in both spirit and soul. But it is a happy thing to know we all agree in our spirits. My spirit may not have all the truth that yours does, and your spirit may not have all the truth as my spirit, but what truth we both share, it is the same. No disunity at all. All these disagreements and arguments we see on CF and elsewhere exist on the soulical level.
So finally, to your statement about truth to a 12 year old. If people hold that God cannot be understood, or that He is "too big to be understood," then how can we explain it to another adult much less a child. They make it impossible to share unity in faith when we cannot even express that belief between each other?
Ultimately, if we hold that God cannot be understood and cannot be known, then we must ask if Jesus failed in His declared mission to show us the Father. I believe He did and He was successful.
Peace in Him

If we all saw things the same there wouldn't be any room for discussion.

Personally, I think that God shows us the parts of His nature that we can't fathom so we remember that He's infinite and we are not. A friend of mine just had a brush with death, (I may have mentioned this elsewhere), and came away having touched infinity. It changed her.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If we all saw things the same there wouldn't be any room for discussion.

Personally, I think that God shows us the parts of His nature that we can't fathom so we remember that He's infinite and we are not. A friend of mine just had a brush with death, (I may have mentioned this elsewhere), and came away having touched infinity. It changed her.

I think that Jesus and the Word has shown us all things we need to know, or should know, or could know. I am not sure what part of God's nature in unfathomable. I think you are meaning things that have not been revealed. The winning lottery number cannot be logically deduced so it is unfathomable. My death date in unknown, so it is unfathomable. And I think the only aspects of God that are unfathomable are the things not revealed. Whatever those things might be, they world not contradict the things that have been revealed. But I understand what you are saying. Encounters with God do leave one awed.

 

[jiminpa]

I think that Jesus and the Word has shown us all things we need to know, or should know, or could know. I am not sure what part of God's nature in unfathomable. I think you are meaning things that have not been revealed. The winning lottery number cannot be logically deduced so it is unfathomable. My death date in unknown, so it is unfathomable. And I think the only aspects of God that are unfathomable are the things not revealed. Whatever those things might be, they world not contradict the things that have been revealed. But I understand what you are saying. Encounters with God do leave one awed.

I mean that the finite cannot comprehend infinity. I mean that something that is both absolutely one and also three is beyond our comprehension. Sure, God tells us what we need to know in the Bible, but we are not able fully understand God. We can't even fully grasp the scope of His love for us.

We see as through dim glass.