What is the significance of predestination vs. free will?

[sad astronaut]

Here is a question I have, and it will sound rhetorical, but it is not. From what I understand, there are two major forms of thought regarding how salvation is obtained.
1) God chooses who is saved, through no choice of the person.
2) God may call people to be saved, but man ultimately makes the choice.

Here is my question. Why does it matter? If we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, what is the signficance of believing it took place completely determined by God or partially determined by us? Will believing one way or the other make a difference in the way we live the Christian life or how we spread God's word? I would think not.

I understand pride is an issue. My parents, who are reformed Baptist, state that people do not want to believe in theory 1) because of their sense of pride; they want to believe they had a sense of good inside them that allowed them to choose God. IMO, the idea that God chose me instead of you would allow just as much pride.

I'm not saying I believe in one theory or another, I just want to understand why it is a significant issue. I think the nature of God is too complex to completely understand, and I think many denominations try too hard to do the impossible.

 

[Knight]

In a way you're right. In the end it dosen't matter much. If someone has placed faith in Christ they are destined for glory regardless of wether they believe in election or not.

I believe in election because doctrine makes the most sense based on my studies of the scriptures.

The only trouble I see in the choice doctrine is that it usually comes with the belief that Salvation can be lost. (Not always but I have seen it.) To me, this can retard the growth of the Christian. If you're always concerned about losing your salvation and then getting it back how can you mature in your faith? This would also imply that Grace is conditional. We didn't do anything to deserve Grace in the first place so how can we lose it?

This is getting a little off topic but you see my point. In the end it won't matter. Someone who places true saving faith in our Lord Jesus Christ will be with Him in paradise.

 

[WesleyJohn]

The only trouble I see in the choice doctrine is that it usually comes with the belief that Salvation can be lost. (Not always but I have seen it.) To me, this can retard the growth of the Christian. If you're always concerned about losing your salvation and then getting it back how can you mature in your faith?

OTOH, I think that a complete belief in 'eternal security' can retard the growth of a Christian. If they believe that they are 'in the club' so to speak, and that they can do anything they want and 'not lose their membership' then they have left the door open for turning their back on God completely.

In regards to the OP, let me say this: I agree to a great extent with what you have said. If we focus on our relationship with God, then our salvation is secure, whether we were chosen, or we chose.

I have often used your argument in the 'eternal security' debate. I tell people that they shouldn't be concerned with whether they can lose their salvation or not, but that they should focus all of their energies onto loving 'the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.'

OTOH, I do think that from a theological standpoint, the argument is important. Theologians are concerned with the nature of God, and what God is like. As humans, we hope to understand as much of God's nature as we can, and both of these questions are part of a greater question: "What are the most basic characteristics of God." Our answers to the questions of eternal security and predestination tell a great deal about how we picture God.

Now, do I believe that your (or my) salvation is in question if you (or I) have an inaccurate picture of God in regards to these questions? Of course not. But the purpose of the questions are to help us understand the nature of God so that we can better model it to all the world.

Peace,

WJ

 

[Knight]

wesley,

That sounds like good advice. I agree that there are some who abuse the doctrine of election as a "free pass" to sin. Someone who behaves like this gives me great cause to doubt their claim of saving faith. (I'm not judging their salvation, merely their lifestyle.) It is by their fruit that you will know them.

What is usually left out of the election debate is the doctrine of regeneration. We are born again in Christ and become new creations. Does this mean we won't sin? No, we still struggle with the sin nature. However, this does mean that we can choose not to sin.

Here's the underlying question.

Which came first? Grace or Faith?

 

[WesleyJohn]

I would say that Grace always precedes Faith. However, I do believe that Prevenient Grace is universal but also resistable.

I think that I would then say that Faith precedes Saving Grace.

But I'm not sure this has much to do with the OP.

 

[Knight]

Grace always preceeds Faith. It has to.

In the context of this thread I don't think it matters in the end wether you believe in election or not. All who place Faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins will be with Him on the other side of glory.

However, I do think that this can affect your daily walk with the Lord.

 

[Reformationist]

Here is a question I have, and it will sound rhetorical, but it is not. From what I understand, there are two major forms of thought regarding how salvation is obtained.
1) God chooses who is saved, through no choice of the person.
2) God may call people to be saved, but man ultimately makes the choice.

Here is my question. Why does it matter? If we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, what is the signficance of believing it took place completely determined by God or partially determined by us? Will believing one way or the other make a difference in the way we live the Christian life or how we spread God's word? I would think not.

I understand pride is an issue. My parents, who are reformed Baptist, state that people do not want to believe in theory 1) because of their sense of pride; they want to believe they had a sense of good inside them that allowed them to choose God. IMO, the idea that God chose me instead of you would allow just as much pride.

I'm not saying I believe in one theory or another, I just want to understand why it is a significant issue. I think the nature of God is too complex to completely understand, and I think many denominations try too hard to do the impossible.

It is significant to every single area of our theology because it foundationally pervades every aspect of our worship. If we look to ourselves or our own actions as the causal agent in our salvation then we relegate grace to the product of "making the right decision" rather than understanding that "making the right decision" is the product of God's efficacious grace.

Anthropocentric theology is a short hop from Pelagian heresies that focus on the creation rather than the Creator.

To be honest, if I attributed my salvation to being a reward for correctly responding to the grace of God then I'm not sure I could even give Christ credit for anything. I prefer to acknowledge Christ as always having been my actual Redeemer and Savior rather than just my potential Redeemer and Savior who's Will can only be accomplished if I give my assent.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I would say that Grace always precedes Faith. However, I do believe that Prevenient Grace is universal but also resistable.

I think that I would then say that Faith precedes Saving Grace.

So your salvation is the result of not resisting the compulsion of the Holy Spirit?

To state that we get one kind of resistable grace which may or may not lead to faith which then may or may not lead to another resistable grace is to say that salvation is not by the grace of God but rather the result of not resisting the grace of God.

Is not faith itself a grace of God or do you believe faith in God to be something that man is morally inclined to do even after his Fall?

God bless

 

[Hunose]

You said:
"Here is my question. Why does it matter? If we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, what is the signficance of believing it took place completely determined by God or partially determined by us? Will believing one way or the other make a difference in the way we live the Christian life or how we spread God's word? I would think not."

Like many of the others, in a sense I conclude that it makes little difference theologically. That is, if you believe you chose God and, in fact, He chose you, you're still connected. D. L. Moody spoke of the Gates of Heaven with the sign over the top, "Whosoever will". When you cross the threshold and look back, the sign says, "Chosen from before time."

For me, however, it is extremely signficant. This story illustrates why. You're standing in heaven after it's all said and done, chatting with some angels. One says, "You know, we watched the whole thing as it happened, and it was marvelous. However, there was one thing we couldn't understand because we aren't human. Perhaps you can explain it. On that day when that missionary fellow came to your door and told you the Gospel, you accepted it with joy. Then he went to your neighbor, and he rejected it. What was the difference?"

I can come up with no possible answer to that question that does not make me "better" somehow than those who don't choose Christ. For me, grace is MAGNIFIED if my choice was not part of the equation. If my choice IS part of the equation, then there really is something better in me than in others.

 

[Allen2]

Good debate guys: I DO think it is important to know what the church has taught since its earliest days. The Fathers and the Church Councils were not infallible but if we approach them humbly and with discernment we will learn and grow;
Eg., the early church probably believed universally in the "free will" doctrine. They believed 2 things:
1. Free-will is a gift given to us by God.
2. We possess free-will because we are made in God's image.
The notion that faith is an irresistible gift did not appear until Augustine, who originally also believed in free-will, "For it is ours to believe and to will, but it is His to give to those who believe and will the power of doing good works thru the Holy Spirit".
Augustine's views on irresistible faith and predestination unto salvation for the elect are novelties that had great and lasting impact on theology for centuries. In my judgment, rather than a restoration of Paul's teaching on God's sovty and grace, Augustine in departing from the Church's understanding of the 1st 3 centuries , took the wrong exit and developed a deterministic doctrine that is clearly contradictory to the warm and universal love of God for each and every sinner. God bless, Al