What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

Major1 · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
Must there be such a scripture? Does there absolutely have to be a verse spelling out that the positions of apostles and prophets have not ceased?

Because, come to think of it, there's not a verse that explicitly states that the positions of pastors, teachers, and evangelists have not ceased either, but nobody seems to have a problem with that.

Let me challenge your perspective a bit here. Consider Jesus. Whatever He did He did through the power of the Holy Spirit and what was ordained by the Father. His entire ministry, He led by example.

The only scriptures He had available to use was what is now known as the Old Testament; the Torah and the Prophets. There is not a single verse within the entirety of those texts that demonstrates that a man should spit on the ground, stir his saliva in the dirt to make clay out of it, and put it on a blind persons eyes to heal them of their blindness. Nor does it contain instructions to spit on people's eyeballs twice so that they can see. Jesus does precisely these things though.

Are we going to just say "well He can do weird stuff like that because He is God", or look at the bigger context? He was leading by example and the disciples followed that example.

No where does it say that this example would stop with the disciples either.

Are we really going to submit to a view that the Holy Spirit simply isn't going to demonstrate His power through those He indwells like that anymore simply because we have our leather bound Bibles and our big buildings with pews and 'greater intellectual understanding' now? And on top of that, claim that when He does demonstrate such power that it is illegitimate, or worse, the work of the Enemy? (Because somehow the enemy can somehow still demonstrate power but the Holy Spirit does not?)

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Bible is the Word of God. There is not a verse in scripture that emphatically states that 'something is not of God unless it is specifically described in detail in scripture'. Nor not any discourses on "that which is perfect" can prove that Paul is referring to the Bible. That is a result of confirmation bias of taking the doctrine of Sola Scriptura to the extreme.

Please understand that I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else over anything. Having said that allow me to speak to your comment as you said...………..

"Because, come to think of it, there's not a verse that explicitly states that the positions of pastors, teachers, and evangelists have not ceased either, but nobody seems to have a problem with that."

But the Bible says...…
1 Timothy 3:1-7 -
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."

Jere. 3:15 -
"And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."

Acts 20:28 -
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Since you were "incorrect" on the comment of PASTORS, Then I believe that it would help your understanding of the comment on spit and saliva to place on the eyes of the blind and it not being in the Old Test. to realize that Jesus Christ authored ALL of the Bible and as such He would be able to do whatever He choose to do.

IMO, you are rationalizing an opinion instead of simply accepting the written Word of God.

The facts are the facts and they can be accepted or rejected but they can not correctly be CHANGED or ALTERED to say what we want them to say.

In that understanding, then please understand that there is simply not ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that validates the succession of the apostle. NONE!

Major1 · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
Actually, I believe I have read (though I could be misremembering so take with a grain of salt) that speaking in tongues as the modern Charismatics do was manifest as early as the Quakers.

The practice of tongues is not only a recent phenomenon, but was common in pagan worship long before Christ came. Robert G. Gromacki, in The Modern Tongues Movement (pp 5-10), documents the history of “speaking in tongues” in antiquity. Some of these ecstatic babbling were reported in the “Report of Wenamon” (about 1100 BC), Plato’s Dialogues (5th century BC), and Virgil’s Aeneid (1st century BC). The Graeco-Roman mystery religions before and after the Christian era most probably practiced these babbling utterances.

Gromacki also documents this phenomenon in modern times among Muslims, Buddhists, and Eskimos. Worship rituals of Eskimos are an attempt to contact the spirit-world, and “are characterized by drum beating, singing, dancing, and nudity.” He cites a book by another author who observed an Eskimo ritual.
The Pagan Origins of Modern “Speaking in Tongues” | Doctrine Unites!

Albion · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
Actually, I believe I have read (though I could be misremembering so take with a grain of salt) that speaking in tongues as the modern Charismatics do was manifest as early as the Quakers.

Id say thats right, Jair. I was generalizing there because a number of groups of Christians were promoting the idea of the experience of the Scriptural gifts at about the same time in history--which is basically the time of the Quakers.

Albion · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
I may not agree with this 100%, but I have to say that's the most reasonable response from the cessationist viewpoint I've read or heard so far. This, I can at least understand and resonate with to a degree. A lot of this can come down to semantics though, i.e. what exactly are the gifts? When we say they have ceased do we only mean partially or completely? If they are still in operation are they expected to have 100% effectiveness? Etc.

Good questions for sure, but I'm not sure we will ever be able to fully grasp such things in detail and intellectual understanding the way we long to. At least not on this earth.

God made His salvation relatively simple to understand, however, this by no means indicates that we worship a simple God whose ways and methods we can ever dream to fully comprehend.

The gifts are those referred to in Corinthians. Just about every serious commentator seems to agree to that. In addition, it is tongues that is the main concern because most so-called cessationists do not insist that there never is a case of a healing, etc.

But with tongues we have the one gift that anyone can imitate and claim (or believe) is real. So the bottom line is essentially this--tongues speaking in a known but foreign language is not what modern charismatics do anyway...and they did cease for all intents and purposes as the church established itself in the old Roman Empire.

It is certain that tongues speaking ceased to be a significant part of the life of the church. Continuationists will say that there must certainly have been some tongues-speakers somewhere that history failed to record, or that there was some conspiracy to not record it, but even if those unlikely explanations were true, it is not what they themselves say true Christians today or the church today ought to accept. It is not their own definition of continuationism.

Continuationists do not argue that there are occasional instances of someone speaking in an unknown but real tongue; they insist that any true believer can and ought to be doing it all the time, just as we can see during the typical Pentecostal worship service.

Jair Crawford · Jun 15, 2018

Major1 said:
Please understand that I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else over anything. Having said that allow me to speak to your comment as you said...………..

"Because, come to think of it, there's not a verse that explicitly states that the positions of pastors, teachers, and evangelists have not ceased either, but nobody seems to have a problem with that."

But the Bible says...…
1 Timothy 3:1-7 -
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."

Jere. 3:15 -
"And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."

Acts 20:28 -
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Since you were "incorrect" on the comment of PASTORS, Then I believe that it would help your understanding of the comment on spit and saliva to place on the eyes of the blind and it not being in the Old Test. to realize that Jesus Christ authored ALL of the Bible and as such He would be able to do whatever He choose to do.

IMO, you are rationalizing an opinion instead of simply accepting the written Word of God.

The facts are the facts and they can be accepted or rejected but they can not correctly be CHANGED or ALTERED to say what we want them to say.

In that understanding, then please understand that there is simply not ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that validates the succession of the apostle. NONE!

I apologize if I came across as excessively argumentative. That is not my intention although this is a subject I am greatly passionate about.

I will concede on the verses regarding pastors. Although one could make the argument that the original context was 'for those times', I obviously do not believe that to be the case.

I think you and I both agree to the fact that the succession of apostles is not explicitly stated. Where we disagree is what is beyond that point, in what the text does not say, and within the interpretation of what the text does say.

FenderTL5 · Jun 15, 2018

Albion said:
I don't get what you mean there. The gifts were important in establishing the church in a pagan world, and when that was accomplished, they gradually became less in evidence until they--and especially tongues--ceased to be part of the life of the church. That's all there is to it unless we want to talk about the artificial re-introduction of tongues and claims of the other gifts in some denominations less than 200 years ago. But for continuationists to argue that this means there never had been any ceasing is not credible.

I agree.
Further, the identification of the movement itself as a "Second Outpouring or "The Former and Latter rain" and a host of other descriptors about the events of Azusa and/or Agnes Ozman would actually concede a period of cessation at the very minimum.

Jair Crawford · Jun 15, 2018

Albion said:
The gifts are those referred to in Corinthians. Just about every serious commentator seems to agree to that. In addition, it is tongues that is the main concern because most so-called cessationists do not insist that there never is a case of a healing, etc.

But with tongues we have the one gift that anyone can imitate and claim (or believe) is real. So the bottom line is essentially this--tongues speaking in a known but foreign language is not what modern charismatics do anyway...and they did cease for all intents and purposes as the church established itself in the old Roman Empire.

It is certain that tongues speaking ceased to be a significant part of the life of the church. Continuationists will say that there must certainly have been some tongues-speakers somewhere that history failed to record, or that there was some conspiracy to not record it, but even if those unlikely explanations were true, it is not what they themselves say true Christians today or the church today ought to accept. It is not their own definition of continuationism.

Continuationists do not argue that there are occasional instances of someone speaking in an unknown but real tongue; they insist that any true believer can and ought to be doing it all the time, just as we can see during the typical Pentecostal worship service.

It's true that the Glossolalia type (the type that sounds like incoherent babbling to most) is what is typical in most Pentecostal churches.

However, I will say, I have been to a Pentecostal service one time, where people were praying in Glossolalia tongues, and then, it would start changing... it would morph in some people from babbling, to babbling in the sound of a particular dialect, to then even certain actual words coming out in those dialects. It was very interesting! So I'm not sure we can say that the Holy Spirit no longer gives the supernatural ability to speak other languages.

Plus, when you get into testimonies from out in the mission field, then you start to hear of things that sound like they could be straight out of Acts!

Now, of course, like healing, there is always the issue of semantics. Is this a gift still? Or God doing the miraculous? I don't know. But I'm also not sure if said semantics are all that important in the long run.

My main peeve is when God's legitimate miracles are clearly happening, but people dismiss it as 'fake' or even 'demonic' just because it seems weird to them. Not saying any of you do this, but I know of many who do.

Albion · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
It's true that the Glossolalia type (the type that sounds like incoherent babbling to most) is what is typical in most Pentecostal churches.

However, I will say, I have been to a Pentecostal service one time, where people were praying in Glossolalia tongues, and then, it would start changing... it would morph in some people from babbling, to babbling in the sound of a particular dialect, to then even certain actual words coming out in those dialects. It was very interesting! So I'm not sure we can say that the Holy Spirit no longer gives the supernatural ability to speak other languages.

Well, I don't know what that would prove. Various studies have shown that people speaking in tongues do so with the accents that they came in with. Boston accents or Southern drawl comes through in the sounds made by people who are supposedly speaking in someone elses language, not their own.

My main peeve is when God's legitimate miracles are clearly happening, but people dismiss it as 'fake' or even 'demonic' just because it seems weird to them. Not saying any of you do this, but I know of many who do.

But really, do you believe that bah bah bah bah bah or the main way of talking by these folks--with a vowel following every single-syllable word--is a foreign language (laba klama ka ka malla lakada, etc.)? These are typical. So, no, and then they start telling us that its an "angelic" language as though angels have physical tongues, lips, and vocal chords.

None of this means--to me--that they are lesser Christians than I am, but this aspect of their faith and their insistence that everyone needs to do it, is not persuasive. If healings or any other of the gifts were as common among them as making sounds, I would probably reconsider, and logically-speaking that should be the case...but of course it is not.

Jair Crawford · Jun 15, 2018

Albion said:
Well, I don't know what that would prove. Various studies have shown that people speaking in tongues do so with the accents that they came in with. Boston accents or Southern drawl comes through in the sounds made by people who are supposedly speaking in someone elses language, not their own.

But really, do you believe that bah bah bah bah bah or the main way of talking by these folks--with a vowel following every single-syllable word--is a foreign language (laba klama ka ka malla lakada, etc.)? These are typical. So, no, and then they start telling us that its an "angelic" language as though angels have physical tongues, lips, and vocal chords.

None of this means--to me--that they are lesser Christians than I am, but this aspect of their faith and their insistence that everyone needs to do it, is not persuasive. If healings or any other of the gifts were as common among them as making sounds, I would probably reconsider, and logically-speaking that should be the case...but of course it is not.

I think if we are honest, it starts off as simply making a joyful noise unto the Lord.

I believe that in turn can become trusting Him to intercede on our behalf, as scriptures state. And that in certain cases this can lead to actual words in languages as per the spiritual gift.

We will always run into problems when we try to explain these things though, or try to make what He does fit a formula. That's the antithesis of the supernatural.

Major1 · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
I apologize if I came across as excessively argumentative. That is not my intention although this is a subject I am greatly passionate about.

I will concede on the verses regarding pastors. Although one could make the argument that the original context was 'for those times', I obviously do not believe that to be the case.

I think you and I both agree to the fact that the succession of apostles is not explicitly stated. Where we disagree is what is beyond that point, in what the text does not say, and within the interpretation of what the text does say.

NO you did not in any way.

I appreciate your passion as it is the only way to grow and learn.
I always enjoy talking with people who are eager to learn the truth of the Scriptures.

I will say however that when the Scriptures are presented and our thinking differs from them, then it is us that must change to conform to them.

I just wanted to impress upon you that I am a Bible teacher and not an arguer.
I work to be a Sola Scriptura believer when possible.

Major1 · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
It's true that the Glossolalia type (the type that sounds like incoherent babbling to most) is what is typical in most Pentecostal churches.

However, I will say, I have been to a Pentecostal service one time, where people were praying in Glossolalia tongues, and then, it would start changing... it would morph in some people from babbling, to babbling in the sound of a particular dialect, to then even certain actual words coming out in those dialects. It was very interesting! So I'm not sure we can say that the Holy Spirit no longer gives the supernatural ability to speak other languages.

Plus, when you get into testimonies from out in the mission field, then you start to hear of things that sound like they could be straight out of Acts!

Now, of course, like healing, there is always the issue of semantics. Is this a gift still? Or God doing the miraculous? I don't know. But I'm also not sure if said semantics are all that important in the long run.

My main peeve is when God's legitimate miracles are clearly happening, but people dismiss it as 'fake' or even 'demonic' just because it seems weird to them. Not saying any of you do this, but I know of many who do.

As I have stated before, when the door is cracked open for a "few" things, the nature of man takes over and pretty soon that morphing will become an all out flood.

I do not know how many Pentecostal services I have been. It always begin with one or two people. But then when others in attendance see that, in order for them to appear as "Spiritual" they too join in because it looks like the thing to do.

That is the human nature of man. We just cannot help ourselves. When ONE person gives a testimony of what God did for them, then 2 other people just have to do the same thing so as not to be out done by others.

That is exactly like the man who goes fishing and brings home a one pound bass.
But what does he say when asked how big the fish was...…."It was 8 pounds if it was an ounce!"

Healing is the very same way. When gullible people believe something they are going to make it happen!

Sally got healed last night and I am going to be tonight. It is human nature my dear sister!

Major1 · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
It's true that the Glossolalia type (the type that sounds like incoherent babbling to most) is what is typical in most Pentecostal churches.

However, I will say, I have been to a Pentecostal service one time, where people were praying in Glossolalia tongues, and then, it would start changing... it would morph in some people from babbling, to babbling in the sound of a particular dialect, to then even certain actual words coming out in those dialects. It was very interesting! So I'm not sure we can say that the Holy Spirit no longer gives the supernatural ability to speak other languages.

Plus, when you get into testimonies from out in the mission field, then you start to hear of things that sound like they could be straight out of Acts!

Now, of course, like healing, there is always the issue of semantics. Is this a gift still? Or God doing the miraculous? I don't know. But I'm also not sure if said semantics are all that important in the long run.

My main peeve is when God's legitimate miracles are clearly happening, but people dismiss it as 'fake' or even 'demonic' just because it seems weird to them. Not saying any of you do this, but I know of many who do.

I would say to you that I have been to the mission field several times.
Hattie twice, Nicaragua, Africa 3 times.

Those so called "miracles" that I have personally observed can be attributed to enthusiasm, adrenaline and most of all from false teachers.

When someone tells a group of people who are basically undereducated and have never been exposed to spiritual things that "GOD OWES YOU A MIRACLE---EXPECT IT or DEMAND IT"...…...that is exactly what they do. They make it happen when there is nothing there. Human nature again says that we (Humans) want something for nothing.

But when the teachers and preachers are gone, the excitement is over and the adrenaline go away, there they are, sick in pain and now they are confused.

Jair Crawford · Jun 15, 2018

Major1 said:
As I have stated before, when the door is cracked open for a "few" things, the nature of man takes over and pretty soon that morphing will become an all out flood.

I do not know how many Pentecostal services I have been. It always begin with one or two people. But then when others in attendance see that, in order for them to appear as "Spiritual" they too join in because it looks like the thing to do.

That is the human nature of man. We just cannot help ourselves. When ONE person gives a testimony of what God did for them, then 2 other people just have to do the same thing so as not to be out done by others.

That is exactly like the man who goes fishing and brings home a one pound bass.
But what does he say when asked how big the fish was...…."It was 8 pounds if it was an ounce!"

Healing is the very same way. When gullible people believe something they are going to make it happen!

Sally got healed last night and I am going to be tonight. It is human nature my dear sister!

This is undoubtedly true. I do believe, however, that this doesn't mean we should throw out the proverbial baby with the proverbial bath water. I don't believe that there is zero legitimacy in any of it in other words.

Jair Crawford · Jun 15, 2018

Major1 said:
I would say to you that I have been to the mission field several times.
Hattie twice, Nicaragua, Africa 3 times.

Those so called "miracles" that I have personally observed can be attributed to enthusiasm, adrenaline and most of all from false teachers.

When someone tells a group of people who are basically undereducated and have never been exposed to spiritual things that "GOD OWES YOU A MIRACLE---EXPECT IT or DEMAND IT"...…...that is exactly what they do. They make it happen when there is nothing there. Human nature again says that we (Humans) want something for nothing.

But when the teachers and preachers are gone, the excitement is over and the adrenaline go away, there they are, sick in pain and now they are confused.

I am sure this happens. But again this does not exclude legitimacy entirely.

I can tell you from my own experience, when I first experienced intense stuttering in prayer was not during a Pentecostal altar call, but during legitimate prayer during worship. I immediately knew what was happening but felt the Lord prompt me to keep praying.

Albion · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
I think if we are honest, it starts off as simply making a joyful noise unto the Lord.[/quote
If you want to look at it that way, but of course glossolalia is not simply making a joyful noise unto the Lord--and definitely not when you consider what proponents of glossolalia claim about it.

[quote I believe that in turn can become trusting Him to intercede on our behalf, as scriptures state. And that in certain cases this can lead to actual words in languages as per the spiritual gift.

Let me understand this correctly. Are you saying that actual languages may in some cases be spoken but that is about as far as you are going?

If that is the case, almost everything that charismatics claim about that experience is rejected--that tongues never ceased, that they are or some of them are angelic language, that unless you do this you are not a full or real Christian or at least you are not as full, etc. as they are, and so on.

If you want to say that there are occasionally events in which it seems that a real foreign language that the speaker does not have any familiarity with may get spoken, just as there is an occasional healing, word of knowledge, etc. and that these are miraculous just like God performs once in a while under other circumstances...

then I am more sympathetic.

Major1 · Jun 15, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
I am sure this happens. But again this does not exclude legitimacy entirely.

I can tell you from my own experience, when I first experienced intense stuttering in prayer was not during a Pentecostal altar call, but during legitimate prayer during worship. I immediately knew what was happening but felt the Lord prompt me to keep praying.

Could also be that you were nervous from praying out loud in public?

Since it was a prayer during worship services, could be that you had others praying in tongues and it influenced you.

Isn't that a possibility?

Major1 · Jun 15, 2018

Albion said:
Let me understand this correctly. Are you saying that actual languages may in some cases be spoken but that is about as far as you are going?

If that is the case, almost everything that charismatics claim about that experience is rejected--that tongues never ceased, that they are or some of them are angelic language, that unless you do this you are not a full or real Christian or at least you are not as full, etc. as they are, and so on.

If you want to say that there are occasionally events in which it seems that a real foreign language that the speaker does not have any familiarity with may get spoken, just as there is an occasional healing, word of knowledge, etc. and that these are miraculous just like God performs once in a while under other circumstances...

then I am more sympathetic.

I understand your stance.

I will say to you that in all of my experiences in different churches with different people, what I have seen is that the Charismatics believe that tongues never ceased, that they are or some of them are angelic language, and that unless you do this you are not a full or real Christian or at least you are not as full, as they are.

The truth is that every time I have been in a Charismatic meeting, the question is always asked...…"Are you born again with the EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues"????

Jair Crawford · Jun 15, 2018

It was loud worship music so I was not worried about people hearing me. And it only started out stammering but became full on out loud as I kept praying. It is something I will truly never forget.

I will say I am troubled that there are still so many Charismatic churches that push tongues so far as to require it as an evidence for Salvation. That is unequivocally a false teaching. Every Pentecostal leaning church I have been to has moved away from such erroneous teachings and I would not stay connected to any church that still taught this false doctrine.

As for events I would say they do not have to be, nor are they necessarily occasional. They could be frequent. But nobody is "less of a Christian" if they are not operating in the gifts.

Major1 · Jun 16, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
It was loud worship music so I was not worried about people hearing me. And it only started out stammering but became full on out loud as I kept praying. It is something I will truly never forget.

I will say I am troubled that there are still so many Charismatic churches that push tongues so far as to require it as an evidence for Salvation. That is unequivocally a false teaching. Every Pentecostal leaning church I have been to has moved away from such erroneous teachings and I would not stay connected to any church that still taught this false doctrine.

As for events I would say they do not have to be, nor are they necessarily occasional. They could be frequent. But nobody is "less of a Christian" if they are not operating in the gifts.

You said...…….
"nobody is "less of a Christian" if they are not operating in the gifts."

And I am saying that no one is "MORE of a Christian" if they are operating in what they think are the gifts.

Major1 · Jun 16, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
It was loud worship music so I was not worried about people hearing me. And it only started out stammering but became full on out loud as I kept praying. It is something I will truly never forget.

I will say I am troubled that there are still so many Charismatic churches that push tongues so far as to require it as an evidence for Salvation. That is unequivocally a false teaching. Every Pentecostal leaning church I have been to has moved away from such erroneous teachings and I would not stay connected to any church that still taught this false doctrine.

As for events I would say they do not have to be, nor are they necessarily occasional. They could be frequent. But nobody is "less of a Christian" if they are not operating in the gifts.

Your words were...………
"It was loud worship music ".

Thanks for your honesty. By your own words then you can see that from the music will come an adrenaline rush and excitement which leads to doing what you think is expected of you.

What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

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