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This has always seemed like semantics to me. Because both of those examples are really not at all that different, no?
Whether we pray for divine healing or are led by the Holy Spirit to lay hands on someone in faith that they be healed (as the apostles did), it is still God doing the healing.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there are people who go to hospitals. We just don't hear about it because those people aren't interested in making a show of it, but interested in what God is doing.
As for the stadiums? Mammon.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there are people who go to hospitals. We just don't hear about it because those people aren't interested in making a show of it, but interested in what God is doing.
As for the stadiums? Mammon.
Exactly my point. If someone is healed it is by the hand of the Lord, no one else. That is entirely different than what the apostles were doing. They were healing people by their own hands, through the power granted them by Jesus Christ.
Actually, no I do not think so. Because for one thing these things don't happen 100% of the time.
Even Jesus entered areas where he could not heal people as documented in Mark.
The idea stems from the belief that Jesus, though fully divine, relinquished Himself fully to the limitations of being fully human (with the exception of course being without sin). Thus His power to perform miracles are as a result of the indwelling Holy Spirit that came upon Him like a dove following His baptism.
Actually, no I do not think so. Because for one thing these things don't happen 100% of the time. Even Jesus entered areas where he could not heal people as documented in Mark.
And even when Jesus did miracles, and though people flocked to Him, people soon began to over rationalize again. Even the disciples feared of starving, right after witnessing Him feed the 4000 and the 5000.
We do the same today. The news media wouldn't come close to such a thing within a ten foot pole for fear of damaging their credibility no matter how real the circumstance, because it would be controversial simply to cover the subject.
All of this to show, even back in Jesus day, that faith really is the key.
The reason that cessationists say that they have ceased is because they ceased. It is not more complicated than that.Scripture also does not assert that they have ceased. It says that they will one day cease but any assertion that they have is speculation.
There is another view that is not the Pentecostal/Charismatic view, but is also not "Cessationism". Orthodoxy has never believed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased, or that there is any reason that they should have. The past 2000 years are filled with stories of signs, wonders, miracles, and other various manifestations of the work of the Holy Spirit. However, the difference is that not all gifts are always necessary and useful at all times, and we don't have the specific expectation that any specific gift will be manifest at any specific time or under any specific set of circumstances. "The wind blows where it will."
The idea stems from the belief that Jesus, though fully divine, relinquished Himself fully to the limitations of being fully human (with the exception of course being without sin). Thus His power to perform miracles are as a result of the indwelling Holy Spirit that came upon Him like a dove following His baptism.
The same thing happened with the apostles after Pentecost and the same thing can happen through the Holy Spirit living in us, performing miracles. The big difference between the disciples and us, and Jesus, is of course that He did not sin, and He had perfect faith as a result.
This is my interpretation. In my opinion it does not detract from Jesus' divinity at all. Though I understand people might disagree.
As for the Matthew passage, I am aware of it and it does have implications of spiritual meaning, but I believe the Mark verse is likely the more historical parallel as it was written first.
I think that's close to what the average cessationist of whatever church background is likely to say.
That is, the gifts may not ever have ceased unless we mean by the word absolutely and everywhere all the time. There may have been rare instances of someone being so gifted, and there probably was. But that is also not to say there has been an unbroken continuity of any of the gifts through all history since the founding of the church.
The problem is that this is what the continuationist insists upon--that there never has been a gap or letup in the experiencing of the gifts, and he will insist upon it even while he admits that there is no known evidence that this actually was so.
Wonderful. Now you just said that...………
"I believe the Mark verse is likely the more historical parallel as it was written first".
That being said and since you have made that the line in the sand, may I then point out Mark 16:14-17...…………..
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues".
And before you post it....YES I am aware that verses 9-20 have been called into question. But the fact is ……..THEY ARE STLL IN THE BIBLE.
Eleven = THEM. Them = Apostles. The Apostles BELIEVED and they were given the SIGN Gifts right here and they could and did do what Jesus did.
Now then.....the truth is that no matter what is said or posted, there is not one single Scripture anywhere in the Bible that tells us that the office was the Apostle was to continue after the last one died.
If there was such a Scripture, it would already be posted on every Catholic, and Mormon and Pentecostal church door.
I don't get what you mean there. The gifts were important in establishing the church in a pagan world, and when that was accomplished, they gradually became less in evidence until they--and especially tongues--ceased to be part of the life of the church. That's all there is to it unless we want to talk about the artificial re-introduction of tongues and claims of the other gifts in some denominations less than 200 years ago. But for continuationists to argue that this means there never had been any ceasing is not credible.
I think that's close to what the average cessationist of whatever church background is likely to say.
That is, the gifts may not ever have ceased unless we mean by the word absolutely and everywhere all the time. There may have been rare instances of someone being so gifted, and there probably was. But that is also not to say there has been an unbroken continuity of any of the gifts through all history since the founding of the church.
The problem is that this is what the continuationist insists upon--that there never has been a gap or letup in the experiencing of the gifts, and he will insist upon it even while he admits that there is no known evidence that this actually was so.
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