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Yes, Neo, the coming of the Bible is in their eyes "the perfect". How they arrive at that conclusion is beyond me
All cessationest agree that the Bible is complete. It makes no difference how many of us disagree or how much we disagree on, it's has nothing to do with the matter at hand. But if we want to go that road, I could just as easily say the same of countinualist, I'm sure all of don't belive you can teach a person how to speak in tounges.
I belive tounges are genuine when I see them used as such.
Why would Paul need to tell the Corinthians that they won't need tounges anymore after Christ return, it would be obvious. Yet Paul is correcting the Corinthians on thier improper use of tounges.
The foreigners were the interpertators.
Diverse kinds of tounges is the same as saying diverse kinds of languages.
"Speaking in the tounges of angels" is a hyperbolic expression, Paul continues on to say " if I have not love, I'm like resounding gong."
The first of the four categories of Christians I will try to describe are
1. the Cessationists themselves. As seen obviously here in this thread, they are not a group with agreed-upon reasons that tongues/prophecy/word of knowledge have ceased; they are just dead-sure that they have ceased
2. by far the majority of Christians in the world today NEITHER speak in tongues/prophesy/declare a Word of Knowledge NOR do they adamantly claim these things cannot happen today, the gifts are not a part of their ongoing worship, yet they know, sitting in their Presbyterian or Baptist church that the Assembly of God church a block down the road has members speaking in tongues all the time and exhibiting gifts -- well, even if they don't know it, they have no SET POSITION against it happening. These are the biggest of the four groups
3. the Pentecostals and Charismatics who go to churches where sign-gifts are a regular part of worship. Unfortunately there may be a minority in this group who over-boardedly claim that speaking in Tongues is something every Christian should do. No. Paul asks the rhetorical question "do all speak with tongues?" and a no is assumed. The extremists who say you must speak in tongues to be saved are clearly mistaken.
4. Christians who have had the charismatic experience yet remain in denominations where the gifts are not a regular main part of worship. I am in this category. I visited pentecostal and assembly of God churches much, but I like Methodism. I attended for a while a charismatic Episcopal church and they went strictly by the book of one message in tongues at a time and it must be interpreted. This was quite different from a whole crowd of prayer-languagers raising hands and speaking en masse. I also attended some Charismatic Catholic services.
These are just broad general categories. As I have said, #2 is by far the largest population.
Adding apostleship and miracles and healing to the three designated gifts that will eventually expire is not warranted -- and Paul did not say he was "the last apostle" -- he said Christ appeared to him last out of those listed
1Co 15:5
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Paul said he was last to see Christ of those mentioned, not that he was the last apostle.
He said in next verse he was LEAST of the apostles, not LAST of the apostles.
Yes, Inner, you know me from Christforums.
And yes, as it was posted before, Cessationists disagree among themselves -- with some even in this thread taking the "completed Bible" angle, and one saying even the writer of Hebrews excluded himself from the era of the sign gifts, and it was also said that a church reaching maturity caused the gifts to cease. Hebrews was written before there was a completed New Testament.
So we see that Cessationists are "the blind men describing the elephant".
Some touched his trunk, tail or side and say "elephant is like a tree, rope, wall" or whatever.
About counterfeiting, this is a ridiculous point, equating to saying that because counterfeit money exists (which it undoubtedly does) that our genuine currency is not valid. That's silly. And it could be more serious than "play-acting" when the gifts are faked and not genuine, it may be human fakery or in some cases it could be satanic/demonic.
The eisogesis of the Cessationists is quite plain in two instances even in this thread so far-
1. assuming that "the perfect" means completed NT while the Bible does not say that,
2. and assuming the writer of Hebrews excludes himself from sign gift era when, in context, the THEM means those who actually heard the Lord, he is only excluding himself from those that heard the Lord teach.
Cessationists "touch the parts of the elephant" that concern tongues at Pentecost; failing to read that Paul says there are diverse kinds of tongues; they hammer in on Acts ch 2 as if that is the only use, purpose, or instance of Tongues -- it is not. Paul speaks of "the tongues of men and of angels" -- so the "human language only" crock is shut down and seen as invalid. Paul says he will pray in the spirit as well as pray with understanding also -- so much for the elephant-touchers who claim prayer language is invalid.
The PERFECT is something yet to come -- when Christ comes back -- this far from perfect world has had the New Testament for centuries.
Another huge difference from 'tongues at Pentecost' vs 'tongues later on in New Testament' is that at Pentecost NO INTERPRETATION WAS REQUIRED - the foreigners HEARD THE APOSTLES IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES! But later we see Paul saying someone who speaks in tongues should have it INTERPRETED; that can be by the speaker OR someone else.
But usually those Cessationists who have a bee in their bonnet for disclaiming tongues/sign gifts today totally ignore anything but the FIRST INSTANCE of tongues at Acts ch 2, completely ignoring 'diverse kinds of tongues' or 'tongues of men and of angels'.
All cessationest agree that the Bible is complete. It makes no difference how many of us disagree or how much we disagree on, it's has nothing to do with the matter at hand. But if we want to go that road, I could just as easily say the same of countinualist, I'm sure all of don't belive you can teach a person how to speak in tounges.
I belive tounges are genuine when I see them used as such.
Why would Paul need to tell the Corinthians that they won't need tounges anymore after Christ return, it would be obvious. Yet Paul is correcting the Corinthians on thier improper use of tounges.
The foreigners were the interpertators.
Diverse kinds of tounges is the same as saying diverse kinds of languages.
"Speaking in the tounges of angels" is a hyperbolic expression, Paul continues on to say " if I have not love, I'm like resounding gong."
So here we are debating something that wasn't a debate until the Holiness movement and after them the Pentecostal movement came onto the scene roughly give or take 1,800+ years into Christianity. Makes no sense that God would withhold the gift of prophecy for so long and from so many giants of the faith. Makes no sense considering the "fruit" of so many wanna be prophets. Continualism huh?
Ephesians 2:20 "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,"
So assuming continualism, to be consistent, we would have to assume a continuation of the offices of prophet and apostle, no?
No thanks, I'll pass.
Considering that a huge chunk of said 1800 years of church history was regulated to the early Roman Catholic Church who kept the lay people from reading and studying scriptures for themselves, why does this surprise you?
The history of the church and of religion is not an appropriate litmus test. The Holy Spirit and Scripture is. And Scripture clearly states "Earnestly seek the gift of prophecy" and "do not forbid the speaking of tongues".
If the RC church was responsible for the suppression of the charismatic gifts then why didn't they reappear at the Reformation when there was a great movement of the Holy Spirit? It wasn't until the start of the twentieth century that people started claiming to have gifts that had previously ceased.
Those verses don't say those gifts continue today. Paul was writing to a church which at the time still had those gifts present.
It took time for the reformation to break out of certain religious traditions. Not being open to the gifts easily could have been one of them.
Scripture also does not assert that they have ceased. It says that they will one day cease but any assertion that they have is speculation.
Both scripture and any amount of common sense assert cessation with absolute certainty. I extend the same invitation I have extended elsewhere to anyone here, or any of your brethren known to possess those gifts, to come to my city and heal my dying friend of his terminal cancer. And if that is not the gift which any of you possess, then please demonstrate which of those gifts you do possess. But of course, as is always the case, and contrary to the very purpose of the gifts, they are always for private interpretation or experience. they are never executed in plain sight for all to witness and marvel. They can never be proven without a doubt.It took time for the reformation to break out of certain religious traditions. Not being open to the gifts easily could have been one of them.
Scripture also does not assert that they have ceased. It says that they will one day cease but any assertion that they have is speculation.
Both scripture and any amount of common sense assert cessation with absolute certainty. I extend the same invitation I have extended elsewhere to anyone here, or any of your brethren known to possess those gifts, to come to my city and heal my dying friend of his terminal cancer. And if that is not the gift which any of you possess, then please demonstrate which of those gifts you do possess. But of course, as is always the case, and contrary to the very purpose of the gifts, they are always for private interpretation or experience. they are never executed in plain sight for all to witness and marvel. They can never be proven without a doubt.
Watching Benny Hinn slap people across the forehead on TV does not a biblical sign gift make. This is one of the biggest blights to the truth that ever existed. It's what makes most of the secular world take one look at "Christianity" and dismiss it as a mythical fairy tale. Heartbreaking and infuriating.
Why not? Because if you or anyone else possessed the powers associated with healing that the apostles possessed, you wouldn't have to go to the hospital to find them. They would be beating down your door. You wouldn't be able to get away from them. They would cut a hole in your ceiling to get to you. They would look for every opportunity to pass under your shadow if nothing else.Your statement on scripture and common sense is in and of itself an assertion based on your interpretation. But let me ponder your invitation for a moment and subsequent comments;
Actually I share your frustration with celebrity TV "healers" like Hinn. I should aside that in my opinion, it is perfectly possible that Hinn has been able to lay hands on people and God heal them, but it's his turning it into a business that makes me question things.
That being said, I do not believe the gift of healing has ceased. I would have no problem laying hands on your friend and declaring healing in faith. I do not have much experience with this and I do not know all the answers to how God moves in these ways, but I believe He does move.
(I should also note that I am by NO means anti-doctor. That can be dangerous.)
I've heard people say that if people like Hinn truly had the gift of healing, he would be praying in hospitals not on TV. That could be true. But I can tell you that if God moves me to do so, I would LOVE to do just such a thing! People often use that as a rebuttal but I say, yes! Let's gather at the hospitals and see what He does!
Why not?
Exactly my point. If someone is healed it is by the hand of the Lord, no one else. That is entirely different than what the apostles were doing. They were healing people by their own hands, through the power granted them by Jesus Christ.Although I have never encountered a genuine Christian healer I do know two things. First, the world is full of charlatans of all sorts who mock Christianity as they fleece the flock. Their judgement is sure and it is coming. Second, God in His providence does miraculously heal some rare individuals of physical diseases. Those whom I have known who have been healed give glory to God alone and confess that no other Christian was the means of their healing.
Your statement on scripture and common sense is in and of itself an assertion based on your interpretation. But let me ponder your invitation for a moment and subsequent comments;
Actually I share your frustration with celebrity TV "healers" like Hinn. I should aside that in my opinion, it is perfectly possible that Hinn has been able to lay hands on people and God heal them, but it's his turning it into a business that makes me question things.
That being said, I do not believe the gift of healing has ceased. I would have no problem laying hands on your friend and declaring healing in faith. I do not have much experience with this and I do not know all the answers to how God moves in these ways, but I believe He does move.
(I should also note that I am by NO means anti-doctor. That can be dangerous.)
I've heard people say that if people like Hinn truly had the gift of healing, he would be praying in hospitals not on TV. That could be true. But I can tell you that if God moves me to do so, I would LOVE to do just such a thing! People often use that as a rebuttal but I say, yes! Let's gather at the hospitals and see what He does!
Why not?
Exactly my point. If someone is healed it is by the hand of the Lord, no one else. That is entirely different than what the apostles were doing. They were healing people by their own hands, through the power granted them by Jesus Christ.
Exactly my point. If someone is healed it is by the hand of the Lord, no one else. That is entirely different than what the apostles were doing. They were healing people by their own hands, through the power granted them by Jesus Christ.
Common sense???
You are very correct and IF there was such a thing as faith healing by men, why do you think that we never ever see any of them in a hospital going from room to room healing everyone there.
We see them in football stadiums, and auditoriums and churches always taking up a "Love offering" but never in hospitals.
What does your common sense tell you????
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