What is the purpose of many warnings in scripture in the NT ?

cygnusx1

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Seeing as there are dozens of warnings in the New Testament written to believers , it would be of value to disclose exactly what those warnings are for !

Are the warnings written to Christians serious ? Are they severe ? Are they concerning salvation ? Rewards ? Or the legitimacy or otherwise of our faith ?

Why would those who believe be exhorted to
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5). ?


Why the many warnings in Hebrews ?
 
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Ignatius21

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cygnusx1 said:
Seeing as there are dozens of warnings in the New Testament written to believers , it would be of value to disclose exactly what those warnings are for ! Are the warnings written to Christians serious ? Are they severe ? Are they concerning salvation ? Rewards ? Or the legitimacy or otherwise of our faith ? Why would those who believe be exhorted to "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5). ? Why the many warnings in Hebrews ?

If we look at the warnings given in the NT Epistles, we must first ask, "To whom were these warnings written?"

Well...to whom were these epistles written? To the churches...to the members and elders of communities consisting of baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the assurances of salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the dire warnings of lost salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

Who does John say we may see committing "sin which leads to death," for which we should not pray? "Brothers." In other words...baptized, professing Christians.

The only sane approach to interpreting these texts (as baptized, professing Christians) is to:

1. Take hope and comfort in the assurances of salvation, and the confidence that nobody can tear us away from God.
2. Tremble at the warnings of lost salvation, and never be overconfident that we ourselves, individually cannot ever fall away from the faith we now hold and profess.

As an aside, all speculation about these warnings being there "only for the reprobate" or some such thing, just don't hold any water. It makes no sense. The epistles were writen to baptized Christians, therefore all that they contain applies to baptized Christians.
 
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AndOne

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:sorry:
If we look at the warnings given in the NT Epistles, we must first ask, "To whom were these warnings written?"

Well...to whom were these epistles written? To the churches...to the members and elders of communities consisting of baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the assurances of salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the dire warnings of lost salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

Who does John say we may see committing "sin which leads to death," for which we should not pray? "Brothers." In other words...baptized, professing Christians.

The only sane approach to interpreting these texts (as baptized, professing Christians) is to:

1. Take hope and comfort in the assurances of salvation, and the confidence that nobody can tear us away from God.
2. Tremble at the warnings of lost salvation, and never be overconfident that we ourselves, individually cannot ever fall away from the faith we now hold and profess.

As an aside, all speculation about these warnings being there "only for the reprobate" or some such thing, just don't hold any water. It makes no sense. The epistles were writen to baptized Christians, therefore all that they contain applies to baptized Christians.

I pretty much agree with everything you say here. Although I think they were written for all Christians- including those who had or have yet to be Baptised.
 
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cygnusx1

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If we look at the warnings given in the NT Epistles, we must first ask, "To whom were these warnings written?"

Well...to whom were these epistles written? To the churches...to the members and elders of communities consisting of baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the assurances of salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the dire warnings of lost salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

Who does John say we may see committing "sin which leads to death," for which we should not pray? "Brothers." In other words...baptized, professing Christians.

The only sane approach to interpreting these texts (as baptized, professing Christians) is to:

1. Take hope and comfort in the assurances of salvation, and the confidence that nobody can tear us away from God.
2. Tremble at the warnings of lost salvation, and never be overconfident that we ourselves, individually cannot ever fall away from the faith we now hold and profess.

As an aside, all speculation about these warnings being there "only for the reprobate" or some such thing, just don't hold any water. It makes no sense. The epistles were writen to baptized Christians, therefore all that they contain applies to baptized Christians.

First , thanks for responding

Why would anyone who has faith be challenged to see if they are in fact "in the faith" ? If it is obvious that they are indeed " in the faith " which is what I conclude from you post , why any need to verify it ?

Btw , no salvation and "lost salvation" are decidedly different yet in the final analysis apostates end with no salvation.

Baptised professing Christians need warnings because they are just that "professing Christians " .
Why would anyone want , need or be instructed in the assurance of salvation if all faith saves ?
 
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OzSpen

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If we look at the warnings given in the NT Epistles, we must first ask, "To whom were these warnings written?"

Well...to whom were these epistles written? To the churches...to the members and elders of communities consisting of baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the assurances of salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the dire warnings of lost salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

Who does John say we may see committing "sin which leads to death," for which we should not pray? "Brothers." In other words...baptized, professing Christians.

The only sane approach to interpreting these texts (as baptized, professing Christians) is to:

1. Take hope and comfort in the assurances of salvation, and the confidence that nobody can tear us away from God.
2. Tremble at the warnings of lost salvation, and never be overconfident that we ourselves, individually cannot ever fall away from the faith we now hold and profess.

As an aside, all speculation about these warnings being there "only for the reprobate" or some such thing, just don't hold any water. It makes no sense. The epistles were writen to baptized Christians, therefore all that they contain applies to baptized Christians.
Well said, brother Ignatius. That was an excellent summary. We can have confidence in God's salvation, but the warnings about falling away are serious.

For my study yesterday, I was reading Ignatius of Antioch's writings for his definition of heresy.
 
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sdowney717

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:sorry:

I pretty much agree with everything you say here. Although I think they were written for all Christians- including those who had or have yet to be Baptised.

Yes of course, these letters were written to churches full of believers.
There would be some in a church who were not following God, some people today would call them back-sliddin. Some also who really did not have any saving faith.

So then these admonitions to keep people focused on the goal.
For example pressing on, forgetting what lies behind, running the race set before you.
And also these scary verses are rightfully meany to be scary, AND also as an explanation of what will happen to those who abandon the faith.

Heb 3
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”[c]
Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Jude
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
 
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OzSpen

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First , thanks for responding

Why would anyone who has faith be challenged to see if they are in fact "in the faith" ? If it is obvious that they are indeed " in the faith " which is what I conclude from you post , why any need to verify it ?

Btw , no salvation and "lost salvation" are decidedly different yet in the final analysis apostates end with no salvation.

Baptised professing Christians need warnings because they are just that "professing Christians " .
Why would anyone want , need or be instructed in the assurance of salvation if all faith saves ?
I thought that that was where you wanted this OP thread to go to defend your Calvinistic view that salvation cannot be lost.

I urge you to allow for open discussion without hampering it with this kind of response.
 
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Steeno7

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If we look at the warnings given in the NT Epistles, we must first ask, "To whom were these warnings written?"

Well...to whom were these epistles written? To the churches...to the members and elders of communities consisting of baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the assurances of salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

To whom are the dire warnings of lost salvation written? To baptized, professing Christians.

Who does John say we may see committing "sin which leads to death," for which we should not pray? "Brothers." In other words...baptized, professing Christians.

The only sane approach to interpreting these texts (as baptized, professing Christians) is to:

1. Take hope and comfort in the assurances of salvation, and the confidence that nobody can tear us away from God.
2. Tremble at the warnings of lost salvation, and never be overconfident that we ourselves, individually cannot ever fall away from the faith we now hold and profess.

As an aside, all speculation about these warnings being there "only for the reprobate" or some such thing, just don't hold any water. It makes no sense. The epistles were writen to baptized Christians, therefore all that they contain applies to baptized Christians.

Written to Christians, for sure, but not everything written applies to Christians.
 
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Ignatius21

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cygnusx1 said:
First , thanks for responding Why would anyone who has faith be challenged to see if they are in fact "in the faith" ? If it is obvious that they are indeed " in the faith " which is what I conclude from you post , why any need to verify it ? Btw , no salvation and "lost salvation" are decidedly different yet in the final analysis apostates end with no salvation. Baptised professing Christians need warnings because they are just that "professing Christians " . Why would anyone want , need or be instructed in the assurance of salvation if all faith saves ?

My simple answer to all of these points is this: faith can be lost, and therefore salvation is not a "done deal" for any of us (bound as we are by space and time) until the last judgment is pronounced.

It ain't over till it's over! In the meantime we live confidently with the tension between being already, but not yet, saved...with fear and trembling.
 
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cygnusx1

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I thought that that was where you wanted this OP thread to go to defend your Calvinistic view that salvation cannot be lost.

I urge you to allow for open discussion without hampering it with this kind of response.

You haven't a clue where I want this thread to go if you think I aim to defend OSAS , the subject of salvation doesn't fit into a simplistic notion like that , your presumption precedes you.
 
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sdowney717

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There is a constant contrast being made between believers and unbelievers throughout the epistles. Fail to recognize that, and you will end up applying what is about unbelievers onto yourself.

Yes these descriptions of such persons not being saved are written as a warning to all regarding the destiny of unbelievers. Whether they claimed to believe at one time does not matter as it is said of them they did not believe what God had said and so were destroyed.

Jude
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
 
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Hillsage

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First , thanks for responding

Why would anyone who has faith be challenged to see if they are in fact "in the faith" ? If it is obvious that they are indeed " in the faith " which is what I conclude from you post , why any need to verify it ?


Being "in the faith" is different than being "of the faith". You must be 'of the faith' to be saved for the life hereafter, but you must be walking 'in the faith' to receive the promises of a 'heavenly life' here and now. Jesus came that we might have "life AND life abundant". One 'life' is for the hereafter and is accomplished by 'you being IN Christ' based upon His walk and NOT YOURS. Whereas the life that is for here and now is accomplished by your walk and 'Christ being IN you'.

I think that the 'hard line' you continually hold up concerning 'eternal salvation' for everyone, simply isn't attainable by anyone...except Jesus. I simply prefer to believe that scripture really is true and He really does not 'loose some'. I also will not limit God or His timing concerning His 'accomplishing all things according to His will'.
 
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cygnusx1

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My simple answer to all of these points is this: faith can be lost, and therefore salvation is not a "done deal" for any of us (bound as we are by space and time) until the last judgment is pronounced.

It ain't over till it's over! In the meantime we live confidently with the tension between being already, but not yet, saved...with fear and trembling.

We agree faith can be lost , temporary faith is a reality .

We also agree , although for different reasons that salvation is not a done deal , ie , it's not complete till it's complete , and fear and trembling certainly fit with a puzzling question , the question of assurance ; why do we need assurance and how do we get it ?

Yet , why would those "in the faith " need to check , test themselves , to affirm it is so ? surely those of faith are "in the faith" so why a test ? And why a self test ?

My point is not at all to defend the infantile OSAS dogma , and certainly not to just push my own view of Calvinism , but to ask pertinent questions regarding faith , assurance , warnings , the place of obedience , works , and the deadly nature of sin.

Just what is the sin unto death ?

What does it mean to sin wilfully and be exposed to a position of no longer any covering (Hebrews) ?

There are possibly three distinct views that can be taken about testing ;

1 . The Arminian view , that warnings are given to aid security of salvation
2. The Calvinist view that warnings as well as assurances are necessary to weed out the genuine faith from the spurious.
3 . The Antinomian view , that a loss of rewards is all that is at stake .

These views can be examined and tested by scripture , which is what I hope will happen.
 
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cygnusx1

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Yes these descriptions of such persons not being saved are written as a warning to all regarding the destiny of unbelievers. Whether they claimed to believe at one time does not matter as it is said of them they did not believe what God had said and so were destroyed.

Jude

Excellent scripture citation!

Jude

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

That is exactly the type of scripture I am thinking of , thanks !

So many warnings and promises , one wonders if they are numbered equally ....


Paul spoke of "Believing in vain" (Cor. 15:2).


...
 
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Ignatius21

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Excellent scripture citation!

Jude

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

That is exactly the type of scripture I am thinking of , thanks !

So many warnings and promises , one wonders if they are numbered equally ....


Paul spoke of "Believing in vain" (Cor. 15:2).


...

Jude's reference is very much like those given throughout Hebrews. God saved people out of the land of Egypt, but afterward destroyed those who did not believe. I think this is the only way we can understand the "already but not yet" tension of our own salvation in this life. All who followed Moses out of Egypt were saved...yet some still fell away later. All who floated on the Ark with Noah were saved...yet one of his sons went on to be cursed and become the father of the enemies of Israel. We do not know what will happen tomorrow. We can look around at our fellow Ark passengers, and all we can say today is that we are all on the Ark together--we are all saved. We can look at those following the pillar of cloud with us today and see that we're all journeying toward the Promised Land together--we are all saved. We are all looking today at the Son of Man, lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness--we are all saved.

Tomorrow, the passenger next to you could jump overboard.

Tomorrow, the guy looking at the cloud could yell "To heck with this, I'm thirsty!" and wander away and be lost.

Tomorrow, your sister could waver and look away from the serpent on the pole, and be bitten by the firey serpents below, and fall in the desert.

Tomorrow, you could do any of these things. And so could I.

Thus, the warnings. We can say, when it's all finished and can see who arrived in the Promised Land "Oh, so it was God's mysterious plan to preserve Sally through the whole journey but to let Jimmy fall away." But we aren't there yet. We must look to ourselves, lest we fall.

Consider Hebrews 3:

Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2 who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house.

...

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
11 As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’”

12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


He's drawn an exact parallel to the wandering in the wilderness, between Moses, and Jesus (the greater-than-Moses). To whom is this addressed? To the "holy brothers" of whom Jesus is the high priest of "our confession." What warning is given to these confessing, holy brothers? The warning not to fall away like those in the wilderness who turned against Moses. They started out OK, but fell away due to sin and the hardness of their hearts.

Take care...who? "Brothers." Where might evil, unbelieving hearts yet be found? In his audience of "holy brothers" who confess Christ and follow Him. The assurance is given, that they have already come to share in Christ, if they persevere to the end. Already, but not yet. If they fall away, they will become like those mentioned by Jude.

And lastly consider Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Who are those who have been enlightened? It's a reference to baptism. I cannot be dissuaded from that interpretation. "Enlightenment" was synonymous with "baptism" from the earliest Christian writings. Hence, again, my point in earlier posts: both the assurances and the warnings are written to confessing, baptized Christians in the Church.

It may be fun to sip coffee and argue about the mysterious purposes of God in election and all that. But at the end of the day, all we can do is tremble before these words and be watchful and vigilant over our own hearts and minds, lest our lamps go out.
 
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cygnusx1

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Jude's reference is very much like those given throughout Hebrews. God saved people out of the land of Egypt, but afterward destroyed those who did not believe. I think this is the only way we can understand the "already but not yet" tension of our own salvation in this life. All who followed Moses out of Egypt were saved...yet some still fell away later. All who floated on the Ark with Noah were saved...yet one of his sons went on to be cursed and become the father of the enemies of Israel. We do not know what will happen tomorrow. We can look around at our fellow Ark passengers, and all we can say today is that we are all on the Ark together--we are all saved. We can look at those following the pillar of cloud with us today and see that we're all journeying toward the Promised Land together--we are all saved. We are all looking today at the Son of Man, lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness--we are all saved.

Tomorrow, the passenger next to you could jump overboard.

Tomorrow, the guy looking at the cloud could yell "To heck with this, I'm thirsty!" and wander away and be lost.

Tomorrow, your sister could waver and look away from the serpent on the pole, and be bitten by the firey serpents below, and fall in the desert.

Tomorrow, you could do any of these things. And so could I.

Thus, the warnings. We can say, when it's all finished and can see who arrived in the Promised Land "Oh, so it was God's mysterious plan to preserve Sally through the whole journey but to let Jimmy fall away." But we aren't there yet. We must look to ourselves, lest we fall.

Consider Hebrews 3:



He's drawn an exact parallel to the wandering in the wilderness, between Moses, and Jesus (the greater-than-Moses). To whom is this addressed? To the "holy brothers" of whom Jesus is the high priest of "our confession." What warning is given to these confessing, holy brothers? The warning not to fall away like those in the wilderness who turned against Moses. They started out OK, but fell away due to sin and the hardness of their hearts.

Take care...who? "Brothers." Where might evil, unbelieving hearts yet be found? In his audience of "holy brothers" who confess Christ and follow Him. The assurance is given, that they have already come to share in Christ, if they persevere to the end. Already, but not yet. If they fall away, they will become like those mentioned by Jude.

And lastly consider Hebrews 6:



Who are those who have been enlightened? It's a reference to baptism. I cannot be dissuaded from that interpretation. "Enlightenment" was synonymous with "baptism" from the earliest Christian writings. Hence, again, my point in earlier posts: both the assurances and the warnings are written to confessing, baptized Christians in the Church.

It may be fun to sip coffee and argue about the mysterious purposes of God in election and all that. But at the end of the day, all we can do is tremble before these words and be watchful and vigilant over our own hearts and minds, lest our lamps go out.

I agree with your points 99%
 
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