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What is the purpose of life? [moved]

Bungle_Bear

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You would take no responsibility for setting up an event which you could have prevented? And how can you argue that Fido is at fault while, at the same time, Fido is not to blame?
 
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timothyu

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And how can you argue that Fido is at fault while, at the same time, Fido is not to blame?
How is any animal in creation at fault for killing and eating another without remorse? They have no concept of right or wrong in following instinct.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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How is any animal in creation at fault for killing and eating another without remorse? They have no concept of right or wrong in following instinct.
You tell me. You're the one who said that Fido would be at fault. Just as in the bible, the way things are set up means the outcome is inevitable. It's interesting that you would deny any responsibility, even though you could have put the "dog biscuit of knowledge of good and evil" in a container in a cupboard that Fido cannot access.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Our bodies and brains are made of normal matter - which follows the laws of nature (physics, chemistry, biology). Our destructive behaviour is a product of our heritage - it's what happens when a cognitively sophisticated ape develops technology and culture - and is still driven by the same unsophisticated feelings and emotions.

We are not content with that and think ourselves better because we came to know self.
I agree with that. Human exceptionalism seems particularly strong among religious folk who need to feel we're special or 'chosen' in some way (e.g. by some deity).
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Yes, I know the traditional story, but none of that answers why a supposedly perfect entity would have wants, needs, or desires - i.e. is it perfect except that it needs the extra satisfaction of sharing its love for itself? because that, obviously, wouldn't be perfection.

Or why an omniscient entity would need to create anything, given it already has complete knowledge of everything that could possibly happen.

Or why a supposedly all-loving, all-merciful entity would condemn to eternal suffering(!!) those of its creations unable to accept one particular religion out of hundreds (or thousands) of equally irrational beliefs, for which there is no evidence, which is documented only by one particular collection of ancient stories (out of thousands) full of magic and contradictions, and subject to multiple interpretations, all claiming to be 'correct'.

Beats me...
 
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timothyu

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even though you could have put the "dog biscuit of knowledge of good and evil" in a container in a cupboard that Fido cannot access.
Hardly beneficial. If you are say trying to quit smoking, do you demand the world put away tobacco so you are not tempted (a pattern today's cancel culture believes) or do you overcome while surrounded by temptations? Hide the temptation away and you have accomplished nothing
Our destructive behaviour is a product of our heritage - it's what happens when a cognitively sophisticated ape develops technology and culture - and is still driven by the same unsophisticated feelings and emotions.
Yet we are the only ones with a concept of self awareness.
.
 
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pitabread

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Yet we are the only ones with a concept of self awareness.

Is actually true?

Thinking of experiments like the "mirror test", there seem to be some animals that also demonstrate at least rudimentary self awareness.
 
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Psalm 27

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Ecclesiastes 12
 
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timothyu

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I don't understand the question.

When humans became self aware they changed. How did these supposedly limited self aware animals change in comparison to their species or others once they became self conscious? Did their natural habits now embarrass them?
 
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pitabread

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When humans became self aware they changed.

They did?

How did these supposedly limited self aware animals change in comparison to their species or others once they became self conscious? Did their natural habits now embarrass them?

I still don't know what you mean by "change in comparison to their species"?

The question seems nonsensical.
 
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Ophiolite

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You appear to be recommending that someone who is trying to overcome sexual voyeurism should spend a lot of time in lap dancing clubs, but be sure to close their eyes.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Yet we are the only ones with a concept of self awareness.
Well, it's not easy to test without language, but no.

As far as we can test for it, there are many species that show various types of self-awareness; the most popular test for self-awareness is the mirror test, which tests whether the creature understands that a mirror reflection is of itself. Quite a number of disparate species can do this, including some birds - there's even (disputed) experimental evidence that some fish can do it.

Other tests involve whether a creature has a mental self-image, e.g. to allow mentally projecting itself into novel situations - again, quite a few species show this, including some birds, and rats. Rats, chimps and dolphins (and probably many other species as yet untested) have also been shown to be capable of metacognition - i.e. showing awareness of the limits of their knowledge in some situation and acting accordingly.

Even octopuses (octopi?) appear to have a degree of self-awareness and theory of mind (they often go together) which is unusual in non-social creatures - particularly molluscs!

It's interesting that chimps pass the mirror test, but macaques don't. This sort of high-level cognitive difference in ability between closely related species is not unusual.

So, many species show different sorts of self-awareness to varying degrees. What usually happens with human exceptionalists at this point is a form of begging the question, where they narrow the definition of self-awareness to a specifically human level, then triumphantly claim that only humans have that level of self-awareness - "Only humans have human self-awareness!". Well, duh.
 
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timothyu

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You appear to be recommending that someone who is trying to overcome sexual voyeurism should spend a lot of time in lap dancing clubs, but be sure to close their eyes.
No I am saying they can walk by rather than demand they all close.
 
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timothyu

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As far as we can test for it, there are many species that show various types of self-awareness
Recognising themselves in a mirror is not self awareness. It is merely recognition. They may see who they are but do not realise who they are. Even you must understand that difference when you look in a mirror if indeed you are human.
 
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Ophiolite

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Recognising themselves in a mirror is not self awareness. It is merely recognition. They may see who they are but do not realise who they are. Even you must understand that difference when you look in a mirror if indeed you are human.
I guess I'm not human, since I don't understand what you mean.
 
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