What is the Normal Christian Life?

[Rob V]

Of course I am coining the term normal Christian life from Watchman Nee whose book by the same title is a must read. I guess I want to approach the subject both as an argument as well as an appeal, garnered in 35 years of personal experience living as a believer in Christ. I have sojourned in many desert lands, done time in Egyptian prisons, as well as crossing the Jordan speaking metaphorically. To be honest these 35 years have taught me a few very basic things, nothing that radical on the surface, but ultimately radical in terms of the effects on the inner life, by which I am referring to the life of Christ indwelling me. Which is what I term the fundamental truth of Normal Christianity.
I could tell you of years of spinning my wheels trying to be a more devout Christian, or of the many years of disillusionment as to why I was not. What is true is true by its very nature, and what I have found true is that there is more than one set of hands trying to steer the ship, and not always at the conscious level, sometimes as with Paul in Romans 7... it is no longer I... The principles of normal Christianity are simple, but it starts with the understanding of human nature, and the nature of new birth by the indwelling of Christ. Fundamental is the idea of human depravity, which sounds pretty bad, but actually it is much worse than you could possibly begin to think. When Jesus said out of the heart comes....and the list is pretty ugly.... well he is talking about all humanity under the curse of sin. Our hearts are not transformable, that is our fleshly affections are perpetually bent on sin. So what good does the new birth effect in terms of reforming our old nature, the answer is none. The old nature is bound to sin and is never going to improve, by yielding to it we bring death to the work of the spirit for a time, by yielding to the spirit we bring death to our old nature. So if I can yield myself consistently to the Holy Spirit, indwelling me with Christ's nature, well then I can in effect live in near perfect communion with God. Working against that is the world and the Devil, and working for that is Christ intercession on my behalf and the empowering of the spirit, but even more fundamental to that is the truth about the cross.
That will be my next post.....

 

[BobRyan]

Of course I am coining the term normal Christian life from Watchman Nee whose book by the same title is a must read. I guess I want to approach the subject both as an argument as well as an appeal, garnered in 35 years of personal experience living as a believer in Christ. I have sojourned in many desert lands, done time in Egyptian prisons, as well as crossing the Jordan speaking allegorically. To be honest these 35 years have taught me a few very basic things, nothing that radical on the surface, but ultimately radical in terms of the effects on the inner life, by which I am referring to the life of Christ indwelling me. Which is what I term the fundamental truth of Normal Christianity.
I could tell you of years of spinning my wheels trying to be a more devout Christian, or of the many years of disillusionment as to why I was not. What is true is true by its very nature, and what I have found true is that there is more than one set of hands trying to steer the ship, and not always at the conscious level, sometimes as with Paul in Romans 7... it is no longer I... The principles of normal Christianity are simple, but it starts with the understanding of human nature, and the nature of new birth by the indwelling of Christ. Fundamental is the idea of human depravity, which sounds pretty bad, but actually it is much worse than you could possibly begin to think. When Jesus said out of the heart comes....and the list is pretty ugly.... well he is talking about all humanity under the curse of sin. Our hearts are not transformable, that is our fleshly affections are perpetually bent on sin. So what good does the new birth effect in terms of reforming our old nature, the answer is none. The old nature is bound to sin and is never going to improve, by yielding to it we bring death to the work of the spirit for a time, by yielding to the spirit we bring death to our old nature. So if I can yield myself consistently to the Holy Spirit, indwelling me with Christ's nature, well then I can in effect live in near perfect communion with God. Working against that is the world and the Devil, and working for that is Christ intercession on my behalf and the empowering of the spirit, but even more fundamental to that is the truth about the cross.
That will be my next post.....

Amen!

1 John 2:1 "I write these things to you - that you sin not"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"
1 Cor 6 and 1 John 3 both contain that famous "be not deceived" clause.

Romans 8:4-9 points out that the lost "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" but the saints walk not in the flesh -- but according to the Spirit - and are "putting to death the deeds of the flesh"

1 John 5:1-4 identifies the life and the walk - of the NT New Covenant Christian.

 

[bugkiller]

Of course I am coining the term normal Christian life from Watchman Nee whose book by the same title is a must read. I guess I want to approach the subject both as an argument as well as an appeal, garnered in 35 years of personal experience living as a believer in Christ. I have sojourned in many desert lands, done time in Egyptian prisons, as well as crossing the Jordan speaking allegorically. To be honest these 35 years have taught me a few very basic things, nothing that radical on the surface, but ultimately radical in terms of the effects on the inner life, by which I am referring to the life of Christ indwelling me. Which is what I term the fundamental truth of Normal Christianity.
I could tell you of years of spinning my wheels trying to be a more devout Christian, or of the many years of disillusionment as to why I was not. What is true is true by its very nature, and what I have found true is that there is more than one set of hands trying to steer the ship, and not always at the conscious level, sometimes as with Paul in Romans 7... it is no longer I... The principles of normal Christianity are simple, but it starts with the understanding of human nature, and the nature of new birth by the indwelling of Christ. Fundamental is the idea of human depravity, which sounds pretty bad, but actually it is much worse than you could possibly begin to think. When Jesus said out of the heart comes....and the list is pretty ugly.... well he is talking about all humanity under the curse of sin. Our hearts are not transformable, that is our fleshly affections are perpetually bent on sin. So what good does the new birth effect in terms of reforming our old nature, the answer is none. The old nature is bound to sin and is never going to improve, by yielding to it we bring death to the work of the spirit for a time, by yielding to the spirit we bring death to our old nature. So if I can yield myself consistently to the Holy Spirit, indwelling me with Christ's nature, well then I can in effect live in near perfect communion with God. Working against that is the world and the Devil, and working for that is Christ intercession on my behalf and the empowering of the spirit, but even more fundamental to that is the truth about the cross.
That will be my next post.....

I wonder if you're not really talking about religious life.

bugkiller

 

[Rob V]

Yes I am talking about religious life, but in doing so we delve into theology as well, namely what is the nature of God. And how does he communicate his nature to creatures such as we.

I think the ultimate communication of His nature was the incarnation, but the incarnation was for one simple purpose, albeit not very simple. God needed to reconcile our sinful adamic nature to himself. In the jurisprudence of the Trinity that was not possible except that adamic nature be judged and destroyed. Well apart from God destroying all sinners there could be only one remedy. That being a substitute to take our judgement upon Himself who would have to be perfect and spotless, even as the law had laid out for substitutionary atonement. Christ was the spotless lamb, born of a virgin and free from adamic nature, God enfolded in flesh and blood. By His willing sacrifice he could stand in the place of all of Adam's sons, which He did on that rugged old cross over 2000 years ago. But something marvelous occurred on that cross that needs to be discussed further. Not only was the penalty of sin paid in full, but adamic nature that held us all in bondage to sin was struck down. That yoke that forever held man in chains of bondage to sin was loosed. Now those who would look to the perfect lamb, and his work of substitution could also be loosed from the adamic bondage that enslaved them. The key to unloose them was faith in that work on the cross, but without knowing the full implication that the cross has loosed them from the bondage of sin, well they have not all realized the scope that the cross encompassed in freeing sinners from wrath, but also bondage. Somehow the adamic nature that we all drag around till we shed this mortal coil, that adamic nature is no longer bound to us, although it certainly feels as if it were at times. Yet, we know that upon receiving the free gift of salvation we also realized that a new nature was placed within us, and that new nature is now bound to our hearts, much as the old nature which once enslaved us to sin, so now we are bound to an ever increasing amount of that unfolding new nature which is Christ's very life in us. We are forever sealed to the heart of God on the cross, and all of our sinful nature was transferred to Christ while we were in Christ being nailed to the cross, and God transferred all of Christ's nature to be revealed in us who believe. We will not fully realize that nature till we shed the mortal body, but we can have a perpetually increasing amount of Christ in our lives from that day forward. Tantamount to that reality is the realization that sin no longer holds me by it's chords, I no longer am a debtor to sin. I am judicially freed and released from the prison, no cuffs no chains. The only thing is I still carry that scar of having been incarcerated for those many years, and I need to be convinced I can live outside those bars. Sadly we still think we are prisoners, and do not fly to our freedom, and often times wander back into those walls thinking we are still their captive. We are free to no longer sin, but to dull of heart to believe it, and therefore not realize it.
Am I saying that you can now live a sinless life, well if that were so John would not have said, "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves". We are only held accountable for sin that we willingly submit ourselves to, but our fleshly bodies still resonate with sinful passions, thoughts, and desires. I drag around a fleshly body inclined to sin by habituation, it is its habit to sin, whether or not my will is involved in the process. I cannot control the flesh being enticed by sin, only that I do not have to let it carry out it's purpose, I am free to call it the dead rat that it is and live according to the new nature that I have within me. It is an act of faith, but faith in all the substantive truths I have mentioned above, and every bit as real as in the faith that saved us from wrath, we need only believe, and then act on our belief.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Yes I am talking about religious life, but in doing so we delve into theology as well, namely what is the nature of God. And how does he communicate his nature to creatures such as we.

I think the ultimate communication of His nature was the incarnation, but the incarnation was for one simple purpose, albeit not very simple. God needed to reconcile our sinful adamic nature to himself. In the jurisprudence of the Trinity that was not possible except that adamic nature be judged and destroyed. Well apart from God destroying all sinners there could be only one remedy. That being a substitute to take our judgement upon Himself who would have to be perfect and spotless, even as the law had laid out for substitutionary atonement. Christ was the spotless lamb, born of a virgin and free from adamic nature, God enfolded in flesh and blood. By His willing sacrifice he could stand in the place of all of Adam's sons, which He did on that rugged old cross over 2000 years ago. But something marvelous occurred on that cross that needs to be discussed further. Not only was the penalty of sin paid in full, but adamic nature that held us all in bondage to sin was struck down. That yoke that forever held man in chains of bondage to sin was loosed. Now those who would look to the perfect lamb, and his work of substitution could also be loosed from the adamic bondage that enslaved them. The key to unloose them was faith in that work on the cross, but without knowing the full implication that the cross has loosed them from the bondage of sin, well they have not all realized the scope that the cross encompassed in freeing sinners from wrath, but also bondage. Somehow the adamic nature that we all drag around till we shed this mortal coil, that adamic nature is no longer bound to us, although it certainly feels as if it were at times. Yet, we know that upon receiving the free gift of salvation we also realized that a new nature was placed within us, and that new nature is now bound to our hearts, much as the old nature which once enslaved us to sin, so now we are bound to an ever increasing amount of that unfolding new nature which is Christ's very life in us. We are forever sealed to the heart of God on the cross, and all of our sinful nature was transferred to Christ while we were in Christ being nailed to the cross, and God transferred all of Christ's nature to be revealed in us who believe. We will not fully realize that nature till we shed the mortal body, but we can have a perpetually increasing amount of Christ in our lives from that day forward. Tantamount to that reality is the realization that sin no longer holds me by it's chords, I no longer am a debtor to sin. I am judicially freed and released from the prison, no cuffs no chains. The only thing is I still carry that scar of having been incarcerated for those many years, and I need to be convinced I can live outside those bars. Sadly we still think we are prisoners, and do not fly to our freedom, and often times wander back into those walls thinking we are still their captive. We are free to no longer sin, but to dull of heart to believe it, and therefore not realize it.
Am I saying that you can now live a sinless life, well if that were so John would not have said, "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves". We are only held accountable for sin that we willingly submit ourselves to, but our fleshly bodies still resonate with sinful passions, thoughts, and desires. I drag around a fleshly body inclined to sin by habituation, it is its habit to sin, whether or not my will is involved in the process. I cannot control the flesh being enticed by sin, only that I do not have to let it carry out it's purpose, I am free to call it the dead rat that it is and live according to the new nature that I have within me. It is an act of faith, but faith in all the substantive truths I have mentioned above, and every bit as real as in the faith that saved us from wrath, we need only believe, and then act on our belief.

Amen brother!! In have been contending with God about this very thing... my habitual, inbred desires to sin but praise to the Almighty! He is faithful to grant victory over these temptations. I am humbled into the dust that the God of eternity would still love me in spite of my failings... all He desires is love through obedience. Increase my faith Father...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

We've received reconciliation to God according to the sin(singular) nature, into grace by which we stand Romans 5:1-11
therefore sins(plural) have been dealt with.
But sin can take on a singular effect and can be quite active, indwelling and working thru mankind, working against the will

Romans 7:17
Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me.
Romans 7:20
But if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me.​

It's almost like a personified sinful nature that's at the root of all outward sinful acts even tho we should recognize inwardly that reconciliation has been completed with God. Reconciliation that's based on Christ's redemption and accomplished thru God's justification. Reconciliation that is the result of justification by faith.

2 Corinthians 5:18—19
But all things are out from God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Christ and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; Namely, that God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and has put in us the word of reconciliation.​

The forgiveness of sins(plural) that we have and do receive is not enough for that personal enemy of God that needs to be reconciled to resolve the conflict. The sin(singular) nature even tho it has been defeated, yet it is still an active force working in us. The human spirit is willing but the flesh still weak. Until the flesh no longer rules, nor the power of good and evil in knowledge of the mind, and until the human spirit works in accordance with the Holy Spirit, the old man, the sinful nature, remains. Perfection is the goal, release from the flesh moves from glory to glory, the image becoming clearer, thru the trials that are endured. Wretched creature to new creation.

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;​

Great thread and great topic!

 

[bugkiller]

Yes I am talking about religious life, but in doing so we delve into theology as well, namely what is the nature of God. And how does he communicate his nature to creatures such as we.

But I don't classify Christianity as religious. The reason is Christianity transcends all organized religious bodies. I don't have a church life because I refuse to submit to the half truths taught and practiced. I refuse all mixtures of law and grace required in most religious circles.

bugkiller

 

[Rob V]

Thanks for the comments, when I diatribe it is simply to flesh out my own thoughts, pardon the expression. Bringing the scripture directly into the discussion is imperative, and Cassia thank you for doing so. My understanding of sanctification, the process of Christ's kingdom in my life, well that has changed over time. I now trust completely in the accomplished work of Christ on my behalf. I believe that Faith alone prevails, but Faith in the fact that I am also free to choose good over evil, though we do all fail. Much of my Christian life, years 1-15 was marked by striving to become all God wanted me to be, I was somewhat aware of the notion of a "Spiritual Rest", a place where working and striving were replace by believing and trusting.
It just took me a long time to understand that, couple that with several years in some denominations that promoted the external to a large degree, well I got messed up. After a broken engagement to a girl I met in college, under circumstances that just overwhelmed us both, I dropped out of college. I left the Church for about 6 years of my life, I felt disillusioned because I thought I had done everything right to that point, serving God, desiring His will, being willing to sacrifice my future for Missionary service. Of course that making God your debtor thing is always going to turn out bad, and rightly so. In the true light of the Holy Spirit, I think pride was sneaking into my heart and self was gaining control, although it was a very sanctified version of self, if you know what I mean. After six years of walking in disillusionment, I crawled back to church hungover after a late Friday night at the bar.
When your at that point, sinful, broken, feeling God owes you nothing but the judgement you rightly deserve, your ready to begin again. Things were very dry at first, not much feeling, but I stuck my nose in the scriptures and over time spiritual life was springing back up, those dry bones in Ezekiel taking on flesh. During this process I was struggling with Sin daily, I always felt like I was falling short. God showed me such amazing Grace, and I truly had a deep hunger and thirst for righteousness, more than ever before. I remember sitting at work one day at my desk, the presence of God came over me in waves of love. Pressing down into my soul. When you have this experience you know it is God's Spirit, nothing else is like that. It was as if God was saying to me "I know you want me", to keep thirsting and hungering. I got all bent out of shape on the baptism of the Holy Spirit for a while, reading books, constantly asking for a powerful work of God to come over me. Funny thing is it already had come over me. Something I never before realized was the work of the Spirit through revelation. God would just give me these impressions of Jesus, his nature, his love, and perhaps most of all his humility, and these deep impressions, not pictures or emotions, but truth being pressed into my soul, well that would break my heart, and I would weep uncontrollably. It is something hard to describe, but it is like God is stamping the impression of Christ on your soul, and you begin to see Him with the inner man. It changes you. It is like a lighthouse beacon, discerning what is of Christ, and what is not. You begin to see how terribly rotten self and pride are anew, ever worse than before. It is hard to stand the exposure, and I know I have retreated from that light since then at times, but I always seem to come back to it, I love Jesus. So that is a bit of where I am coming from, but if you knew me you would say I was a pretty rotten man, and I know I am much worse than that. The thing is, I am not the Christ, just a dark backdrop for him to shine forth. I know it is just my experience, and I do not hold it as anything special, God is working in all believers equally. I share it to hopefully encourage someone else who is going through difficult times, for them to know you always can be restored. But realize God will use your failures to show you more of Himself in ways you might not have been open to had you not.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Yes, I think you spoke into what both bugkiller and I were both relating to.

quote] the presence of God came over me in waves of love. Pressing down into my soul. When you have this experience you know it is God's Spirit, nothing else is like that. It was as if God was saying to me "I know you want me", to keep thirsting and hungering. [/quote

I ran from God when that happened to me. It was very costly lesson but one that taught much about the spiritual realm. Scary actually and what I wouldn't give a penny for to experience again is something I could never buy with any amount of money. Money that I would forfeit immediately for the knowledge of good and evil achieved. I came to know what "count the cost" is all about. I think that having biblical descriptions of the process really helps.

[quote It is like a lighthouse beacon, discerning what is of Christ, and what is not.[/quote

That's exactly what it was like, knowing what was from the hand of God and what was from the hand of satan. Very humbling when self is just an awareness