What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

fhansen · 2025-11-05T20:36:01-0600

Clare73 said:
My text states that "he believed God and it (his belief/faith) was credited (imputed) to him as righteousness." (Ro 4:1-5. 22, 2 Co 5:21, Php 3:9).

The word ellogao (impute) does not mean "declared."

Most whose theology resembles your own have no problem with "declared" as they believe it refers to a legal change in status only in God's eyes. But I listed two other words there: "reckoned" and "credited". There are two Greek words used in Rom 4 for these concepts (and neither are used in the other passages you mentioned). The words are: elogisthē, used 5 times by my count, and logizetai, also 5 times.

elogisthē: reckon, account, charge, numbered
logizetai: count, reckon, credit, calculate

The only translation offhand where I could find "impute" was the KJV and NKJV, 5 times out of 10, sometimes used for elogisthē, sometimes for logizetai. "Reckon" was used more often than not in all translations, with "counted" or "credited" following.

But the real question here is, why does God reckon us righteous when we believe? Is it because He counts/reckons faith as righteousness, or is it because He merely now sees us as righteous because we believe? And what does impute mean here? How is it used?

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-06T04:17:01-0600

fhansen said:
Oh, so God created everyone to be sinners. Wow, what a god.

Read it and weep:

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

fhansen said:
Jesus came to heal the sick, but He can't do it.

Pretty sure believers still get sick. But there is a deeper type of sickness that can't be seen, nor will God eradicate it til the end of their time.

fhansen said:
Anyone who does God's will, with the help of His medicine His grace, by the Spirit, is a hypocrite.

Hypocrities are easily spotted. They think they're better than the other sinners.

They always promote works, to prove they are sinless or to prove to themselves and others they'll be saved.
They seldom claim they are present tense sinners
And they NEVER claim their own sin is "of the devil."

But it's not really the people doing the above anyway. It's the disobedience that God bound everyone with.

We're just supposed to know the cause and have dominion over, not eradication. Doesn't make us any better and a lot of times worse.

Eph. 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

God bound everyone to the spirit of disobedience.

Some have a slice of honesty to see it, and admit it. Doesn't make them (or me) any better than any common sinner. But it might be better than being a lying hypocrite.

Clare73 · 2025-11-06T08:56:40-0600

fhansen said:
Most whose theology resembles your own have no problem with "declared" as they believe it refers to a legal change in status only in God's eyes. But I listed two other words there: "reckoned" and "credited". There are two Greek words used in Rom 4 for these concepts (and neither are used in the other passages you mentioned). The words are: elogisthē, used 5 times by my count, and logizetai, also 5 times.

elogisthē: reckon, account, charge, numbered
logizetai: count, reckon, credit, calculate
The only translation offhand where I could find "impute" was the KJV and NKJV, 5 times out of 10, sometimes used for elogisthē, sometimes for logizetai. "Reckon" was used more often than not in all translations, with "counted" or "credited" following.
But the real question here is, why does God reckon us righteous when we believe?

The same reason he reckoned Abraham righteous when he believed in the promise (Ge 5:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).
It is through faith that we access Christ's righteousness imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19, Php 3:9).

Both words above mean "impute," to put down to a person's account.

Logizetai is better translated "reckon/account" (Ro 4:6 8, 11, 22, 23, 24, 2 Co 5:19, Jas 2:23)

fhansen said:
Is it because He counts/reckons faith as righteousness, or is it because He merely now sees us as righteous because we believe? And what does impute mean here? How is it used?

"Impute" is "to charge to, to lay to one's account, to reckon as."

God reckons (imputes, accounts) us as righteous when we believe because he thereby imputes (reckons, accounts, credits) Christ's righteousness to us (Ro 5:18-19, Php 3:9), just as he imputed (reckoned) Adam's sin to us (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19) by birth (Eph 2:3).

fhansen · 2025-11-06T09:25:55-0600

Clare73 said:
The same reason he reckoned Abraham righteous when he believed in the promise (Ge 5:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).
It is through faith that we access Christ's righteousness imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19, Php 3:9).

It is through faith that we access Christ's righteousness given to us.

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

fhansen · 2025-11-06T09:41:22-0600

Clare73 said:
"Impute" is "to charge to, to lay to one's account, to reckon as"

Yes, to recognize as. God reckons man righteous when man turns to Him in faith, because man could refuse that just and righteous gift. But now, by his faith, man is reconciled with God, repenting and accepting the forgivness won for us by His Son on the cross. By this new relationship, with the branch now connected to the Vine, man receives true righteousness, the righteousness he was made for, If he remains in Him, then he will produce much good fruit. If he strays, and remains apart, man will suffer death all over again, because God is our life. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

Clare73 · 2025-11-06T09:44:50-0600

fhansen said:
It is through faith that we access Christ's righteousness given to us.

Note whose righteousness it is. . .it is not our own righteousness.

fhansen said:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

fhansen · 2025-11-06T09:52:26-0600

Clare73 said:
Note whose righteousness it is. . .it is not our own righteousness.

And it becomes ours personally. That's what union with God is meant to do.

Clare73 · 2025-11-06T10:03:57-0600

fhansen said:
And it becomes ours personally. That's what union with God is meant to do.

Our sinful nature by birth (Eph 2:3) has not been removed.

Union with Christ is the imputation of his righteousness, credited/counted to us as our own (Ro 5:18-19), just as Adam's sin was imputed/credited to us and counted as our own (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19), it being the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's rIghteousness being imputed/credited to us and counted as our own (Ro 5:18-19), neither of which we actually incurred.

fhansen · 2025-11-06T10:07:23-0600

Clare73 said:
Union with Christ is the imputation of his righteousness, credited/counred to us as our own (Ro 5:18-19). just as Adam's sin was imputed/credited to us and counted as our own (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19).

And as has been clearly demonstrated, Adam's unrighteousness became our own, and so Jesus' righteousness now becomes our own. We're given a new heart and spirit at justification, IOW.

Clare73 · 2025-11-06T10:17:07-0600

fhansen said:
And as has been clearly demonstrated, Adam's unrighteousness became our own, and so Jesus' righteousness now becomes our own. We're given a new heart and spirit at justification, IOW.

According to the NT, both are accounted/imputed as our own (Ro 5:14, Php 3:9).

Righteousness does not sin, only Christ is actually righteous, our righteousness is imputed (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9).

fhansen · 2025-11-06T10:21:00-0600

Clare73 said:
Our sinful nature by birth (Eph 2:3) has not been removed.

Our wills have not been removed, meaning we can still follow God or follow man: ourselves. His gift is the overcoming of the old man, or else we could never be set free from sin (Rom 6:22). We're immediately made new creations but we're not frorced to walk in that righteousness, in the Holy Spirit. But if we do, to the extent that we remain in Him and He in us, we will indeed, overcome the flesh, with eternal life the result (Rom 6:22).

Clare73 · 2025-11-06T10:25:44-0600

fhansen said:
Our wills have not been removed, meaning we can still follow God or follow man: ourselves.

Can you choose to live a completely sinless life?

fhansen · 2025-11-06T10:30:31-0600

Clare73 said:
Can you choose to live a completely sinless life?

No, do you think it's ok to live a completely sinful life? Can grave deeds of the flesh keep one from heaven, as Scripture maintains they will?

Clare73 · 2025-11-06T10:31:23-0600

fhansen said:
No, do you think it's ok to live a completely sinful life?

Then your will is not free to choose to be sinless.

Your will has only partial freedom, not complete freedom.

And you don't see "free will" in the Bible.

fhansen · 2025-11-06T11:13:53-0600

Clare73 said:
Then your will is not free to choose to be sinless.

It's a matter of who you choose to serve, God or mammon. Nearness to God equates to freedom from sin, If we sin, then we've exercised our freedom to remain apart from Him, as John's letters so eloquently emphasize.

Clare73 · 2025-11-06T11:18:19-0600

fhansen said:
It's a matter of who you choose to serve, God or mammon. Nearness to God equates to freedom from sin,

Who made that rule?

So those humans who are near to God never sin?

What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

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