What is the Mark of the Beast ?

[Paradise Haven]

What have I done to give you the impression that I don't already know all these things? I say those kinds of things to others all the time to try to get them to think of the big picture instead of thinking so narrowly all the time.

Sorry didn't mean no disrespect.

Why jump through all these hoops to try to make your interpretation make sense when you can simply acknowledge that it's a spiritual mark? Why is it that you think it has to be physical? I truly don't understand that at all.

The Bible describes the mark of the beast in a way that implies a tangible, physical aspect to its enforcement. Revelation 13:16-17 states that the mark is necessary for buying and selling, which suggests that it involves a practical, visible mechanism for economic control. From this standpoint, a purely spiritual mark would not fit the description of something that affects economic transactions and can be used to control who participates in the global economy.

To reconcile our views, one could argue that the spiritual aspect of the mark is linked to its physical implementation. The spiritual allegiance to the Antichrist's system may manifest through a physical mark or identification system that symbolizes and enforces this allegiance. In other words, the physical mark serves as a manifestation of the spiritual choice or commitment made by individuals. This view aligns with interpretations that see the mark as a literal tool for economic control while also representing a deeper spiritual reality.

While some may argue that the mark of the beast is symbolic or spiritual, the scriptural description of its role in economic transactions and control suggests that it also involves a physical, visible component. This physical aspect is necessary for enforcing the global system described in Revelation.

Explain how a physical mark could be used to make someone decide whether they want to follow Christ (or continue following Christ) or not? Is that not a decision that someone makes in their spirit?

Yes the decision is made from their spirit, but what is the decision (to take the mark).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Sorry didn't mean no disrespect.

The Bible describes the mark of the beast in a way that implies a tangible, physical aspect to its enforcement. Revelation 13:16-17 states that the mark is necessary for buying and selling, which suggests that it involves a practical, visible mechanism for economic control. From this standpoint, a purely spiritual mark would not fit the description of something that affects economic transactions and can be used to control who participates in the global economy.

To reconcile our views, one could argue that the spiritual aspect of the mark is linked to its physical implementation. The spiritual allegiance to the Antichrist's system may manifest through a physical mark or identification system that symbolizes and enforces this allegiance. In other words, the physical mark serves as a manifestation of the spiritual choice or commitment made by individuals. This view aligns with interpretations that see the mark as a literal tool for economic control while also representing a deeper spiritual reality.

While some may argue that the mark of the beast is symbolic or spiritual, the scriptural description of its role in economic transactions and control suggests that it also involves a physical, visible component. This physical aspect is necessary for enforcing the global system described in Revelation.


Yes the decision is made from their spirit, but what is the decision (to take the mark).

Please read my post #140 where I addressed this in a response to Tigger Boy.

 

[Paradise Haven]

Please read my post #140 where I addressed this in a response to Tigger Boy.

I understand some believe the mark is purely spiritual, I hold that it is both physical and spiritual, intertwined in its implications. If we consider it only a spiritual mark, practical questions arise, such as how an invisible mark would be used for everyday transactions like buying groceries or gas. A physical mark would logically be necessary for scanning and identification in these scenarios. Thus, understanding the mark as both physical and spiritual aligns with the scriptural portrayal of its comprehensive impact on daily life and spiritual allegiance. That is the only conundrum we have.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I understand some believe the mark is purely spiritual, I hold that it is both physical and spiritual, intertwined in its implications. If we consider it only a spiritual mark, practical questions arise, such as how an invisible mark would be used for everyday transactions like buying groceries or gas. A physical mark would logically be necessary for scanning and identification in these scenarios. Thus, understanding the mark as both physical and spiritual aligns with the scriptural portrayal of its comprehensive impact on daily life and spiritual allegiance. That is the only conundrum we have.

I understand that you hold to that, but you need to explain how a physical mark is one that all whose names are not written in the book of life have as well as how exactly a physical mark can be related to deception. Remember, the worship of the beast and the mark of the beast are related directly to deception. No offense, but so far you have done nothing close to convincing me that a physical mark can fit that description of what it entails. Also, have you considered that the mark of the beast is the spiritual opposite of the seal of God? Do you believe the seal of God is a physical seal?

There's also the issue of whether or not the mark of the beast is only a future entity, which I do not believe is the case. But, I guess that's another story. Again, it says all whose names are written in the book of life worship the beast and have its mark, so I take that literally to refer to literally all whose names are not written in the book of life. We know the beast is not just a future entity from reading Revelation 17:8. With all this said, we don't need to go into this here if you don't want to and we can continue discussing whether the mark is physical or spiritual instead.

 

[Paradise Haven]

I understand that you hold to that, but you need to explain how a physical mark is one that all whose names are not written in the book of life have as well as how exactly a physical mark can be related to deception. Remember, the worship of the beast and the mark of the beast are related directly to deception. No offense, but so far you have done nothing close to convincing me that a physical mark can fit that description of what it entails. Also, have you considered that the mark of the beast is the spiritual opposite of the seal of God? Do you believe the seal of God is a physical seal?

We are going to go real deep in thought here and maybe this will help.

1. Antichrist is a man.
2. The beast is the Economic, Religious and social government the antichrist controls.
3. God and His Word is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. He doesn't need a physical sign to know who His true followers are.
4. Antichrist and His Government doesn't know the heart of man, therefore a physical sign is necessary to know they are part of the system. Possibly a barcode.
5.This distinction (one being physical (mark of the beast) and one being spiritual (Seal of God)) underscores the different purposes and manifestations of these marks in biblical prophecy, with the mark of the beast being a physical symbol of control and the seal of God representing a spiritual affirmation of faith.
6. One is spiritual and the other physical because God and the World system are always in opposition to each other. The world is all about the physical and how much stuff you have, while everything about God is in the Spiritual (Heaven is our Home. We are strangers and pilgrims sojourning in this land)

as well as how exactly a physical mark can be related to deception

A physical mark used for buying and selling can be intricately related to deception in several significant ways. Such a mark, whether it’s a barcode, microchip, or similar technology, may be presented as a practical necessity for daily transactions, promising convenience and enhanced security. The deception lies in this portrayal: the mark is marketed as beneficial or necessary for economic participation, while its true implication is a form of allegiance to a system opposed to God. This creates a false sense of security and normalcy, obscuring the mark’s deeper spiritual and moral consequences. By integrating the mark into everyday life, it becomes normalized, leading individuals to accept it without fully grasping its spiritual ramifications.

Furthermore, the mark can serve as a counterfeit of God’s divine seal, which signifies protection and ownership by God. This counterfeit mark represents submission to a deceptive authority, undermining genuine worship and loyalty to God. The pressure to accept the mark due to economic necessity creates a deceptive choice, forcing individuals to prioritize immediate practical needs over their spiritual integrity. Thus, the mark of the beast becomes a tool of profound deception, blending coercion, normalization, and false promises to lead people away from true spiritual allegiance and into a false system of worship.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We are going to go real deep in thought here

I'm all about that. I don't mind that at all.

and maybe this will help.

1. Antichrist is a man.

I disagree. Where is this taught in scripture? Look up the word "antichrist" in scripture and you should discover that there are many antichrists and all who deny Christ are antichrists and have "that spirit of antichrist" in them that denies Jesus Christ.

2. The beast is the Economic, Religious and social government the antichrist controls.

The heads of the beast always represent whatever world kingdom/empire is in control at any given point in history, so I see the beast as representing the world kingdom/system that opposes God. Jesus said this:

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

In my view, the beast basically represents "the world" in the sense of how Jesus referred to "the world" here. The beast makes war with the saints because the world hates us.

3. God and His Word is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. He doesn't need a physical sign to know who His true followers are.

No physical sign is needed to identify those whose names are not written in the book of life, either.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

4. Antichrist and His Government doesn't know the heart of man, therefore a physical sign is necessary to know they are part of the system. Possibly a barcode.

Again..

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

The world knows who are its own without the need for a physical mark.

5.This distinction (one being physical (mark of the beast) and one being spiritual (Seal of God)) underscores the different purposes and manifestations of these marks in biblical prophecy, with the mark of the beast being a physical symbol of control and the seal of God representing a spiritual affirmation of faith.

I see no need for such a distinction. The spiritual mark of the beast indicates that someone opposes God and the seal of God indicates that someone belongs to God.

6. One is spiritual and the other physical because God and the World system are always in opposition to each other. The world is all about the physical and how much stuff you have, while everything about God is in the Spiritual (Heaven is our Home. We are strangers and pilgrims sojourning in this land)

The world is not just all about the physical. The world worships many entities besides God including many unseen false idols and gods that are worshiped by those in false religions as well as themselves, celebrities, animals, science and so on. The world is in spiritual opposition to God.

A physical mark used for buying and selling can be intricately related to deception in several significant ways. Such a mark, whether it’s a barcode, microchip, or similar technology, may be presented as a practical necessity for daily transactions, promising convenience and enhanced security. The deception lies in this portrayal: the mark is marketed as beneficial or necessary for economic participation, while its true implication is a form of allegiance to a system opposed to God. This creates a false sense of security and normalcy, obscuring the mark’s deeper spiritual and moral consequences. By integrating the mark into everyday life, it becomes normalized, leading individuals to accept it without fully grasping its spiritual ramifications.

It would have to be some sort of system that discerning people like us can see is set up specifically to deceptively influence people to follow after Satan and the world instead of God. I don't see how a physical mark can accomplish something like that. How exactly could having a microchip implanted in you mean that you are rejecting God and following after the world instead? What about the microchip would indicate who you are giving your allegiance to? How could they pull this off to make it so that by taking this microchip people are indicating that they are rejecting God?

Furthermore, the mark can serve as a counterfeit of God’s divine seal, which signifies protection and ownership by God. This counterfeit mark represents submission to a deceptive authority, undermining genuine worship and loyalty to God.

While this is a deceptive thing, at the same time it has to be clear what the ramifications would be of accepting a physical mark. Surely, it can't be so deceptive that even you and I could unknowingly accept the mark because people don't become lost by not knowingly rejecting God. People know that they reject God. So, I just can't see how such a physical mark could be implemented throughout the world where every person has to decide whether to accept it or not.

Think about this, too. If it was a physical mark and we literally couldn't buy or sell anything without it, then we (Christians) would all die because that would mean we couldn't buy the food and drinks that we need to survive. Is that what you think will happen? All Christians will die from starvation because of not accepting a physical mark of the beast?

The pressure to accept the mark due to economic necessity creates a deceptive choice, forcing individuals to prioritize immediate practical needs over their spiritual integrity. Thus, the mark of the beast becomes a tool of profound deception, blending coercion, normalization, and false promises to lead people away from true spiritual allegiance and into a false system of worship.

But, again, though it is deceptive, it would have to be clear that you are rejecting God by accepting it. It can't be something where you and I could accept it without having any idea that it means we're rejecting God by doing so. Salvation doesn't work that way. People who are saved clearly know what they believe and who they believe in as do people who don't. So, it isn't as if anyone can be tricked into accidentally accepting a physical mark, right? I'm sure you agree. So, I'm failing to see how such a physical mark could possibly be implemented so that every person in the world has to decide whether to accept it or not and where EVERYONE in the world whose name is not written in the book of life accepts it.

 

[Tigger Boy]

That hermeneutic does not apply to my understanding of the mark of the beast. I do not see the mark of the beast as being symbolic of something else besides a mark, I see it as being a spiritual mark that all unbelievers have in contrast to the spiritual seal of God that all believers have.

SJ, I have selected this statement from your post, because you dismiss the importance of " valid rules of interpretation/hermeneutics". Perhaps you have never considered why they are needed. First valid rules force the bible to be its own interpreter, of which I think you would agree is a good thing. The second reason is to prevent our personal bias from overshadowing the truths which God has revealed. A lack of understanding the importance of valid rules of interpretation in regards to Rev., explains why their is such diversity within the christian community on it's interpretation.

Please consider these thoughts, they are not mine, but insightful for all students of prophecy.

The Bible Will Tell Us Things That We Don’t Want to Believe
Experts widely disagree on Bible prophecy because every expositor has a different paradigm. The essential problem, of course, is that false presuppositions and false doctrines cannot produce valid conclusions. A valid rule is a rule that is always true. For example,2 + 2 always equals 4 because the laws of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division demonstrate the answer is true. Similarly, a valid rule will not have an exception even in Bible prophecy. If there is an exception in math, no one can determine if the answer is true or false. If there is an exception to a rule in Bible prophecy, no one has the authority to speak for God and tell the rest of the world when the rule should be applied or ignored.

Faulty rules can produce unrealistic hopes and reality can produce bitter disappointment. Logic and reasonableness do not alone ensure prophetic validity.

For thousands of years, people believed Earth stood still and the Sun orbited the Earth. After all, everyone could plainly see that the Sun traveled across the sky! Then, along came an obscure mathematician who said that the Sun stood still. Even though Copernicus proved that the Sun was not moving, he was severely punished for speaking out against the traditions of the elders and telling the truth. History declares that advocates of advancing truth are frequently punished. (Even Jesus was crucified for speaking the truth.) Nevertheless, God’s truth never stands still. The honest in heart always experience great joy whenever they find or receive more truth! The ongoing discovery of truth is a process that enables the Bible to reveal to us what we do not know and things we do not want to believe – at first. Unfortunately, many Christians do not want additional truth. Many people are content with their traditions (the familiar and predictable) and they are quick to discredit anything that is different before carefully analyzing it. Perhaps the greatest problem that human beings face today is that we cannot predict what our response to truth will be until more truth arrives and challenges our thinking and traditions.

Question SJ, do you understand the rules of interpretation, if any, that were used to arrive at the interpretation you consider to be a correct interpretation of Rev., prophecies and if so are you willing to share them on this thread with those of us who are following the dialogue?

 

[Paradise Haven]

3. God and His Word is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. He doesn't need a physical sign to know who His true followers are.

This concept emphasizes that God does not require physical signs to understand the true nature and allegiance of individuals. His omniscience allows Him to perceive the innermost motives and spiritual conditions of the heart, making external markers unnecessary for His divine assessment.

No physical sign is needed to identify those whose names are not written in the book of life, either.

Consider this scenario: If two individuals, one belonging to God and the other to the world system, are dressed identically and their actions or fruits are not apparent, how would the world system determine which person has the authority to buy and sell? The absence of a physical mark or outward sign makes it challenging for the system to differentiate between them based solely on their appearance. This underscores the need for a tangible and visible means of identification, such as the mark of the beast, to enforce control and distinguish those who conform to the system from those who do not.

I disagree. Where is this taught in scripture? Look up the word "antichrist" in scripture and you should discover that there are many antichrists and all who deny Christ are antichrists and have "that spirit of antichrist" in them that denies Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as God.

How exactly could having a microchip implanted in you mean that you are rejecting God and following after the world instead? What about the microchip would indicate who you are giving your allegiance to? How could they pull this off to make it so that by taking this microchip people are indicating that they are rejecting God?

Taking the mark is automatic rejection of God. The act of accepting the chip is accompanied by pledges of loyalty to the global authority, making it a deliberate rejection of God. This scenario creates a clear divide between those who conform to the world system and those who remain faithful to God, with the chip symbolizing that choice.

Think about this, too. If it was a physical mark and we literally couldn't buy or sell anything without it, then we (Christians) would all die because that would mean we couldn't buy the food and drinks that we need to survive. Is that what you think will happen? All Christians will die from starvation because of not accepting a physical mark of the beast?

Revelation 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth,"

This verse is a promise given by Jesus to the faithful church of Philadelphia. This verse is seen as an assurance of divine protection and deliverance for those who remain steadfast in their faith and obedience to God's Word. It emphasizes the importance of perseverance and faithfulness in the midst of trials and tribulations. The "hour of temptation" is understood as a period of great testing and tribulation that will affect the entire world, likely referring to the events of the end times described in Revelation. The promise to "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is interpreted as God's commitment to safeguard His faithful followers from the severe trials that will test the inhabitants of the earth. This protection may be seen as either spiritual preservation during the tribulation or a promise of being taken out of the world before the worst of the tribulation occurs. This verse reassures believers of God's faithfulness and the reward for their steadfastness in keeping His Word.

 

[Tigger Boy]

It would have to be some sort of system that discerning people like us can see is set up specifically to deceptively influence people to follow after Satan and the world instead of God. I don't see how a physical mark can accomplish something like that. How exactly could having a microchip implanted in you mean that you are rejecting God and following after the world instead? What about the microchip would indicate who you are giving your allegiance to? How could they pull this off to make it so that by taking this microchip people are indicating that they are rejecting God?

SP, As you can see I'm following this dialogue. You raise legitimate concerns, I hear you. At this point in our dialogue, I don't believe either you or PH understand fully the timing of the mark, sense the conditions the world will face at that time has not been mentioned. Therefore I will go even deeper than PH. The timing of the mark is near the end of the tribulation. The tribulation is an all out battle between God and Satin for the worship of those living on earth in its final days just prior to Christ return. Each individual mature enough will be forced by circumstances to make a decision for or against the worship of Christ.

God knowing the darkness with regard to His gospel, that satin has spread throughout the earth, has predetermine events to awaken earths inhabitants to their spiritual condition. Since these will be earths last days this battle will exceed any battle or war ever fought on planet earth. It will be a physical war over spiritual loyalty to Christ of Satin.

One cannot understand Rev., story until all the peaces fit properly together. What starts the tribulation is when Jesus opens the forth seal. (Rev. 6:7,8) Under this seal Jesus, yes Jesus, will kill one forth of the earths population. You most likely will be shocked at that statement, but let me remind you Jesus killed all of earths inhabitants, children, and babies, but eight during the
the flood, and the first born of all of the Egyptians when He freed Israel from Egypt.

This coming destruction is further mentioned in (Rev. 7:1-3) Note in this text that the physical earth/land sea and trees are harmed. How will God accomplish this? He reveals how in the first four trumpet judgements. (Rev. 8:7-12) They are physical events sent by God, affecting the entire planet, which He owns. This will surely get the attention of the remaining inhabitants on earth to consider the eternal gospel.

But who will take the gospel to the world? God has predetermined that He will choose 144,000, servants/prophets.
(Rev. 7:1-3)These will be selected from all cultures of various religions of the world. Just like in bible times Jesus will select His prophets not on their head knowledge but rather their hearts. He will give them His words and they will speak them within their culture and religion. They will be filled with Holy Spirit power in it's "Latter Rain", and the eternal gospel will go to the whole world as never before in a very short time.

Due to the first four trumpets, that are very physical, the first beast of (Rev.13;1-10) will emerge. It will consist of seven heads (which are seven diverse religious leaders of different countries) and ten horns. (which will be world leaders) Satin will give it his power and authority, and it will last 42 months, and deceive the inhabitants of earth. (Satin will be leading its leaders, but they won't realize it then) When the tribulation is nearing its end, when the gospel has stalled due to those who refuse to except it. God then allows the sounding of the fifth and sixth trumpet judgements, these are two woes. These are designed to reveal the man of sin/satin in human form, "thee Antichrist, with a capital"(A) (1 Thess.2: 1-5) (2 Thess.2:11,12) who until this time has been living in the spirit realm. God allows him and his demons to take on bodily form (Rev. 9:1-12) Note within theses texts theses demons can't do further damage to the grass, earth/dirt plant or tree. Why? Because food is getting scarce! And they could only torment the unbelievers. This appearing of Satin in human form is also mentioned in (Rev. 13:11-18) Satin will perform great signs even calling fire down from heaven, by these signs he will deceive the inhabitants of the world in thinking he is Christ, when in reality he is thee "Antichrist".

God allows Satin and his demons to appear so the wicked who have refused to excepts the external gospel that has been preached with great power for the past 1260 days (42 months), will come to their senses and except the gospel. When the sixth trumpet sounds, Jesus will remove the barrier that He imposed on Lucifer and his demons during the fifth trumpet, (not to kill anyone), however, this limitation will be removed in the sixth trumpet. They will be allowed to kill one-third of mankind.

Now that you understand the back story leading up to the time of the mark lets look at it from the beast/Satins perspective, as to how he will do this. The world is in shambles, survival mode, the gospel has been preached for nearly 42 months, house to house, one forth of the worlds population is dead, transportation, communication, electrical grid, fuel supplies, manufacturing, shipping, and food is greatly diminished. Satin will usurped the power that belonged to the first beats and will forced the world to make an image to it (a look alike) (Rev. 13:11-18) He will set himself up as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, by establishing a one world church/state government, with him on the thrown. He will inform the world that since he, God is here on earth, that all forms of religion most end and all must worship him. Now of course their will be many believers on earth by then so Satin sets a loyalty test, to prove those who are willing of their free will to worship him, in the same way that the King of Babylon did durning the time of Daniel's three friends, those refusing to worship him were supposed to be killed.

Satin will require a physical mark, on the right hand or on the forehead (not in either, most likely a tattoo) it will be simple to receive, can't be lost or stolen, nothing technical to scan it, easily visible, can't change your mind after receiving it. One must not think this test of worship and loyalty will be a deception in any form, because God though His servant prophets has been boldly speaking the three angles message since the tribulation started. (Rev. 14:6-12) The first message: Fear God, He has come to pass judgement of the living. Second: Fallen! Fallen! [proven false] is Babylon the Great [first beast of Rev. 13] Third message: Do not worship the beast [Satin] and his image [one world church/state] or receive his mark [physical] or they shall drink the wine of God's fury [seven last bowl judgements]

Based on prophecy Satin is allowed too kill the remaining one third of the population of earth. This will be the saints and the 144,000 servant prophets. They will be willing to die for their faith in Christ and He will give them a martyrs faith to do so. (See Rev. 6:9-11) Those choosing the mark will have clearly rejected the clear message of the third angel and the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and except the mark in order to get access to food. It will not be until the seven bowl judgements are poured out on those who receive the mark, that they finally realize that they have been deceived by Satin into believing that he the Lamb like beast is not God, but rather the Antichrist.

I am quite sure this will be the first time for both you and PH, to hear this interpretation of Revelations prophecies. And your first response will be to reject it which is normal. I ask that you both read it through a couple of times and the texts in support. Does it reveal the actions of God in the past, does it reveal God's warning to all, and how He plans that all shall hear, and, understand the eternal gospel, to reject the Lamb like beast mark, because if they do they shall receive the full measure of His wrath and be destroyed. Nobody can claim they have been deceived into worshiping the Lamb like beast, because prophecy spells it all out clearly for those willing to consider it.

But do they repent after the AntiChrist is revealed to them, no not according to (Rev.19: 11-21). Instead they join Satin to fight Jesus and His army when He returns to receive the righteous.

Blessings

 

[Spiritual Jew]

SJ, I have selected this statement from your post, because you dismiss the importance of " valid rules of interpretation/hermeneutics".

No, I do not. If you're going to continue saying things like this to me then the discussion will have to end. So, do you plan on doing that? Who are you to tell me what rules of interpretation/hermeneutics I should be using? Who made you the authority on that?

Perhaps you have never considered why they are needed.

Insulting comments like this are completely unnecessary. My hermeneutics are that spiritual discernment is necessary to interpret the deeper things taught in scripture, as Paul taught (1 Corinthians 2:9-16) and to use scripture to interpret scripture. We should never interpret any verse or passage in such a way that contradicts any other scripture. We should not bring doctrinal bias into our study of scripture. We must interpret it objectively and we must always interpret it in context. So, tell me again how I supposedly dismiss the important "valid rules of interpretation/hermeneutics".

First valid rules force the bible to be its own interpreter, of which I think you would agree is a good thing.

Oh, now you think I agree with this after telling me I supposedly "dismiss the importance of valid rules of interpretation/hermeneutics? Make up your mind. Do I dismiss them or agree with them? And, again, who are you to tell me what those valid rules should be?

The second reason is to prevent our personal bias from overshadowing the truths which God has revealed. A lack of understanding the importance of valid rules of interpretation in regards to Rev., explains why their is such diversity within the christian community on it's interpretation.

I agree. But, you acting as if I don't already know this is very offensive and any more comments like that after this will force me to ignore you from then on.

Please consider these thoughts, they are not mine, but insightful for all students of prophecy.

The Bible Will Tell Us Things That We Don’t Want to Believe
Experts widely disagree on Bible prophecy because every expositor has a different paradigm. The essential problem, of course, is that false presuppositions and false doctrines cannot produce valid conclusions. A valid rule is a rule that is always true. For example,2 + 2 always equals 4 because the laws of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division demonstrate the answer is true. Similarly, a valid rule will not have an exception even in Bible prophecy. If there is an exception in math, no one can determine if the answer is true or false. If there is an exception to a rule in Bible prophecy, no one has the authority to speak for God and tell the rest of the world when the rule should be applied or ignored.

You need to humble yourself and acknowledge that you do not have superior knowledge to me in this area. I fully understand how we should approach the interpretation of scripture and do not need you to teach me that.

Faulty rules can produce unrealistic hopes and reality can produce bitter disappointment. Logic and reasonableness do not alone ensure prophetic validity.

Of course. Did I ever say otherwise? I did not. Yet, you are acting as if I did. You should apologize to me for judging me like this. You imagine that you are here to be my teacher, but I don't need that from you. I know how to properly interpret scripture and I know that we all need the Holy Spirit as our guide.

For thousands of years, people believed Earth stood still and the Sun orbited the Earth. After all, everyone could plainly see that the Sun traveled across the sky! Then, along came an obscure mathematician who said that the Sun stood still. Even though Copernicus proved that the Sun was not moving, he was severely punished for speaking out against the traditions of the elders and telling the truth. History declares that advocates of advancing truth are frequently punished. (Even Jesus was crucified for speaking the truth.) Nevertheless, God’s truth never stands still. The honest in heart always experience great joy whenever they find or receive more truth! The ongoing discovery of truth is a process that enables the Bible to reveal to us what we do not know and things we do not want to believe – at first. Unfortunately, many Christians do not want additional truth. Many people are content with their traditions (the familiar and predictable) and they are quick to discredit anything that is different before carefully analyzing it. Perhaps the greatest problem that human beings face today is that we cannot predict what our response to truth will be until more truth arrives and challenges our thinking and traditions.

Why do you imagine that I don't already know these things? What exactly did I say or do to make you think that? You are coming across here as very arrogant and that you think you are "holier than thou". Humble yourself.

Question SJ, do you understand the rules of interpretation, if any, that were used to arrive at the interpretation you consider to be a correct interpretation of Rev., prophecies and if so are you willing to share them on this thread with those of us who are following the dialogue?

So, you decided at the beginning of your post to accuse me of dismissing the importance of valid rules of interpretation, but now you are asking me of I understand their importance. Why didn't you ask me first before making that accusation? See above for the answer to your question.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

SP, As you can see I'm following this dialogue. You raise legitimate concerns, I hear you.

Oh, you do? Really? Despite the fact that I supposedly dismiss valid rules of interpretation? Interesting.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Consider this scenario: If two individuals, one belonging to God and the other to the world system, are dressed identically and their actions or fruits are not apparent, how would the world system determine which person has the authority to buy and sell? The absence of a physical mark or outward sign makes it challenging for the system to differentiate between them based solely on their appearance. This underscores the need for a tangible and visible means of identification, such as the mark of the beast, to enforce control and distinguish those who conform to the system from those who do not.

It seems that you are not addressing anything that I'm saying. I have already addressed this. I already pointed out this scripture:

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

I trust that Jesus knew what He was talking about here and He indicated that the world recognizes and loves its own. And no physical mark is necessary for that to be the case.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as God.

Where do you see the term "antichrist" here? You should not use the term "antichrist" in a way that scripture does not.

As for this passage, have you considered that phrases like "the man of sin" can be used in a general sense rather than in reference to an individual man?

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Is this passage referring to an individual "man of God" or to the people of God in general? The latter, right? That is how I understand the reference to "the man of sin" in 2 Thess 2:3-4. It is referring generally to the people Paul described later in 2 Thess 2.

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Similar to how "the man of God" refers generally to people who are "thoroughly furnished unto all good works" by all scripture inspired by God, I believe "the man of sin" refers generally to people who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved" and who "believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness".

Notice the reference to "that wicked" in verse 8. Consider this passage...

1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Is Paul referring to an individual person when he refers to "that wicked person" here? No. He is referring generally to anyone who is "a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner".

Taking the mark is automatic rejection of God. The act of accepting the chip is accompanied by pledges of loyalty to the global authority, making it a deliberate rejection of God. This scenario creates a clear divide between those who conform to the world system and those who remain faithful to God, with the chip symbolizing that choice.

How can a physical mark reflect a decision that someone makes in their hearts and minds? I see no reason why the mark of the beast has to be physical just as I see no reason for the seal of God to be physical.

Revelation 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth,"

This verse is a promise given by Jesus to the faithful church of Philadelphia. This verse is seen as an assurance of divine protection and deliverance for those who remain steadfast in their faith and obedience to God's Word. It emphasizes the importance of perseverance and faithfulness in the midst of trials and tribulations. The "hour of temptation" is understood as a period of great testing and tribulation that will affect the entire world, likely referring to the events of the end times described in Revelation. The promise to "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is interpreted as God's commitment to safeguard His faithful followers from the severe trials that will test the inhabitants of the earth. This protection may be seen as either spiritual preservation during the tribulation or a promise of being taken out of the world before the worst of the tribulation occurs. This verse reassures believers of God's faithfulness and the reward for their steadfastness in keeping His Word.

Of course. Did you somehow think I didn't know this? If so, what would make you think that?

As for whether it is talking about spiritual preservation during a time of tribulation or a promise of being taken out of the world, we can look at the only other verse in scripture that contains the Greek words "tereo" (keep) and "ek" (from) used together.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil.

So, using scripture to interpret scripture, we can conclude that Revelation 3:10 has nothing to do with anyone being taken out of the world, but rather with being protected while facing trials and tribulation while in the world.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

God knowing the darkness with regard to His gospel, that satin has spread throughout the earth, has predetermine events to awaken earths inhabitants to their spiritual condition. Since these will be earths last days this battle will exceed any battle or war ever fought on planet earth. It will be a physical war over spiritual loyalty to Christ of Satin.

One cannot understand Rev., story until all the peaces fit properly together. What starts the tribulation is when Jesus opens the forth seal. (Rev. 6:7,8) Under this seal Jesus, yes Jesus, will kill one forth of the earths population. You most likely will be shocked at that statement, but let me remind you Jesus killed all of earths inhabitants, children, and babies, but eight during the
the flood, and the first born of all of the Egyptians when He freed Israel from Egypt.

This coming destruction is further mentioned in (Rev. 7:1-3) Note in this text that the physical earth/land sea and trees are harmed. How will God accomplish this? He reveals how in the first four trumpet judgements. (Rev. 8:7-12) They are physical events sent by God, affecting the entire planet, which He owns. This will surely get the attention of the remaining inhabitants on earth to consider the eternal gospel.

There is a major problem with your literal interpretations of the highly symbolic book of Revelation. It is causing you to contradict other scripture. It's interesting that you criticized me for supposedly dismissing valid rules of interpretation when you violate major rules of interpretation of scripture that I use which include interpreting scripture in context while considering the type of text being used (literal, symbolic, poetic, Apocalyptic, hyperbolic, etc.) while also making sure not to contradict any other scripture in the process.

You have a great deal of physical chaos and destruction occurring throughout the world in the time just before Jesus returns, but Jesus Himself said this:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus, like Paul in 1 Thess 5:2-11, indicates that people will being going about their normal activities before Jesus returns. They will have no idea of what is coming. He will come as a thief in the night to bring "sudden destruction" upon them from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). They will be in spiritual darkness and have no awareness at all of what is coming just like the unbelievers in the days of Noah and the days of Lot.

You contradict this by saying the events described in Revelation that you referenced "are physical events sent by God, affecting the entire planet, which He owns. This will surely get the attention of the remaining inhabitants on earth to consider the eternal gospel". How does this line up with what Jesus and Paul taught about how things will be before Jesus returns? Not at all. Instead, they will be saying "peace and safety" before He returns (1 Thess 5:2-3) while they go about their normal activities. Please think about this and adjust your understanding of the book of Revelation to fit with what is taught in the rest of scripture.

Here is another rule I go by that you apparently don't. You should form the foundation of your doctrine on clear, straightforward scripture and then interpret more difficult and highly debatable scripture, such as that found in the book of Revelation, according to the doctrine you have established using the clear and straightforward scripture.

But who will take the gospel to the world? God has predetermined that He will choose 144,000, servants/prophets.
(Rev. 7:1-3)These will be selected from all cultures of various religions of the world. Just like in bible times Jesus will select His prophets not on their head knowledge but rather their hearts. He will give them His words and they will speak them within their culture and religion. They will be filled with Holy Spirit power in it's "Latter Rain", and the eternal gospel will go to the whole world as never before in a very short time.

Again, you need to learn to interpret scripture with scripture and you need to understand that Revelation is not just a book about the future. The 144,000 are said to be "firstfruits". Is there other scripture that refers to those firstfruits? I believe there is.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting...18 .Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The book of Revelation is not a book just about the future, as the following verse makes clear:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

It's also not a book that introduces a bunch of new doctrine that is not taught anywhere else in scripture.

 

[Paradise Haven]

It seems that you are not addressing anything that I'm saying. I have already addressed this. I already pointed out this scripture:

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

I trust that Jesus knew what He was talking about here and He indicated that the world recognizes and loves its own. And no physical mark is necessary for that to be the case.

I apologize for not addressing your point earlier. I understand that Jesus taught that the world would recognize and hate those who belong to Him, as stated in John 15:18-19. This clearly highlights the spiritual discernment between those who follow Christ and those who are of the world. I fully agree that the spiritual nature of the mark is what truly matters.

Considering the context of the end times described in Revelation, it seems plausible that the Antichrist will also implement a physical form of control to enforce allegiance and maintain order amidst the chaos. In a world facing unprecedented turmoil, a tangible mark could serve as a means for the Antichrist to systematically distinguish and control those who comply with his regime. While the spiritual aspect remains paramount, the physical mark could be a practical tool for enforcing the allegiance and economic control necessary for his global dominance.

I believe that both the spiritual and physical dimensions of the mark play crucial roles in the unfolding of end-time events. I appreciate your understanding and hope this clarifies my perspective.

Where do you see the term "antichrist" here? You should not use the term "antichrist" in a way that scripture does not.

As for this passage, have you considered that phrases like "the man of sin" can be used in a general sense rather than in reference to an individual man?

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Is this passage referring to an individual "man of God" or to the people of God in general? The latter, right? That is how I understand the reference to "the man of sin" in 2 Thess 2:3-4. It is referring generally to the people Paul described later in 2 Thess 2.

The passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 clearly refers to an individual rather than a general group of people when it mentions "the man of sin" and "the son of perdition." Basic grammar and the context of the passage support this interpretation. The definite article "the" before "man of sin" indicates a specific individual rather than a collective group. Additionally, the passage describes specific actions and characteristics of this person: he opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, and he sits in the temple of God, showing himself as God. These are not descriptions of a general group of people but rather of a singular figure who will embody opposition to God in a unique and unprecedented way.

Moreover, the term "son of perdition" is a title that has been used in Scripture to refer to a particular individual who is destined for destruction, similar to how it was used for Judas Iscariot in John 17:12. This reinforces the idea that 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is referring to a specific person.

Practical Symbolic Exegesis helps to understand that this figure, known as the Antichrist in other parts of Scripture, will play a pivotal role in the end times. This individual will be the ultimate representation of rebellion against God, deceiving many and demanding worship. While the term "Antichrist" is not explicitly used in this passage, the description aligns with the character and actions attributed to the Antichrist elsewhere in the Bible, such as in 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 13. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 clearly indicates an individual rather than a general group, and this person is commonly understood in Christian eschatology as the Antichrist.

How can a physical mark reflect a decision that someone makes in their hearts and minds? I see no reason why the mark of the beast has to be physical just as I see no reason for the seal of God to be physical.

The key lies in where we place our faith. The mark can't force a decision already made in the heart. Instead, the mark might become an opportunity to stand firm, a chance to show the world our unwavering commitment to the true King – Jesus Christ! The ultimate significance of both the mark of the beast and the seal of God lies in the spiritual decisions and commitments of individuals, physical expressions can serve as outward signs of these inward realities. In a chaotic and deceptive world, a physical mark would serve the practical purpose of visibly distinguishing those who align with the beast from those who follow God, enforcing the beast's control and persecution of believers. This underscores the dual nature of biblical symbols, which often have both spiritual and practical implications.

Of course. Did you somehow think I didn't know this? If so, what would make you think that?

As for whether it is talking about spiritual preservation during a time of tribulation or a promise of being taken out of the world, we can look at the only other verse in scripture that contains the Greek words "tereo" (keep) and "ek" (from) used together.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil.

So, using scripture to interpret scripture, we can conclude that Revelation 3:10 has nothing to do with anyone being taken out of the world, but rather with being protected while facing trials and tribulation while in the world.

Thank you for this info. Most definitely will rethink my position of which tribulation I believe.

 

[Paradise Haven]

But who will take the gospel to the world? God has predetermined that He will choose 144,000, servants/prophets.
(Rev. 7:1-3)These will be selected from all cultures of various religions of the world.

No. This is specifically jews from the 12 Tribes of Israel. Verse 9, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" This group is distinct from the 144,000

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I apologize for not addressing your point earlier. I understand that Jesus taught that the world would recognize and hate those who belong to Him, as stated in John 15:18-19. This clearly highlights the spiritual discernment between those who follow Christ and those who are of the world. I fully agree that the spiritual nature of the mark is what truly matters.

Considering the context of the end times described in Revelation, it seems plausible that the Antichrist will also implement a physical form of control to enforce allegiance and maintain order amidst the chaos. In a world facing unprecedented turmoil, a tangible mark could serve as a means for the Antichrist to systematically distinguish and control those who comply with his regime. While the spiritual aspect remains paramount, the physical mark could be a practical tool for enforcing the allegiance and economic control necessary for his global dominance.

I believe that both the spiritual and physical dimensions of the mark play crucial roles in the unfolding of end-time events. I appreciate your understanding and hope this clarifies my perspective.

I'm so far not seeing any evidence that it has to be a physical mark, but thanks for your thoughts.

The passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 clearly refers to an individual rather than a general group of people when it mentions "the man of sin" and "the son of perdition." Basic grammar and the context of the passage support this interpretation. The definite article "the" before "man of sin" indicates a specific individual rather than a collective group.

Did you not read my whole post? I'm not sure how you missed it, but I said this....

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Is this passage referring to an individual "man of God" or to the people of God in general? The latter, right? That is how I understand the reference to "the man of sin" in 2 Thess 2:3-4. It is referring generally to the people Paul described later in 2 Thess 2.

Using your logic, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 must be referring to an individual man of God.

Additionally, the passage describes specific actions and characteristics of this person: he opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, and he sits in the temple of God, showing himself as God. These are not descriptions of a general group of people but rather of a singular figure who will embody opposition to God in a unique and unprecedented way.

Do you look at how Paul described the temple of God elsewhere in scripture? What does he say about it? Does he not say that we are the temple of God? That the church is the temple of God (Eph 2:19-22)? Remember, in 2 Thess 2:3 he mentions a mass falling away from the faith occurring before Jesus comes again. So, to me, what he is saying is that people in the church will decide that they no longer need God anymore and will fall away from God and essentially make themselves God.

Moreover, the term "son of perdition" is a title that has been used in Scripture to refer to a particular individual who is destined for destruction, similar to how it was used for Judas Iscariot in John 17:12. This reinforces the idea that 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is referring to a specific person.

If "the man of sin" and "that wicked" can refer to sinful people in general, as I have shown, then that can be the case for "the son of perdition" as well. So, I don't find this to be a convincing argument...unless Paul was specifically talking about Judas Iscariot, which he was not. Paul spoke figuratively in parts of 2 Thess 2:1-12 instead of straightforwardly. He clearly intended for his message there to be spiritually discerned. That's why instead of just straightforwardly referring to the church or the body of Christ, he referred to "the temple of God".

Practical Symbolic Exegesis

What is this?

helps to understand that this figure, known as the Antichrist in other parts of Scripture, will play a pivotal role in the end times. This individual will be the ultimate representation of rebellion against God, deceiving many and demanding worship. While the term "Antichrist" is not explicitly used in this passage, the description aligns with the character and actions attributed to the Antichrist elsewhere in the Bible, such as in 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 13.

There is no individual Antichrist referenced in either 1 John 2:18 or Revelation 13.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

This is not referring to an individual antichrist. Did you not continue reading the verses following that?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

John indicated that ANYONE who denies that Jesus is the Christ and denies the Father and the Son is antichrist. And there were already many antichrists in his day.

You need to look up all of the verses that reference antichrist to understand what they were told was coming.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It was "that spirit of antichrist" that they heard was coming and John said it was already starting to be in the world at that time and it was in the "many false prophets" that had already gone out into the world in his day.

As for Revelation 13, you should understand that prophetic beasts are kingdoms, not individuals.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 clearly indicates an individual rather than a general group, and this person is commonly understood in Christian eschatology as the Antichrist.

I completely disagree. It's not clear to me at all. Actually, it's clear that it's not an individual. How could an individual sit in the temple of God in the future? Do you believe in a future physical temple of God? That is impossible. We (the church) are the temple of God. What future physical temple could possibly be considered the temple of God?

The key lies in where we place our faith. The mark can't force a decision already made in the heart. Instead, the mark might become an opportunity to stand firm, a chance to show the world our unwavering commitment to the true King – Jesus Christ!

We can do that now by boldly proclaiming our faith and the gospel everywhere we go.

The ultimate significance of both the mark of the beast and the seal of God lies in the spiritual decisions and commitments of individuals, physical expressions can serve as outward signs of these inward realities. In a chaotic and deceptive world, a physical mark would serve the practical purpose of visibly distinguishing those who align with the beast from those who follow God, enforcing the beast's control and persecution of believers. This underscores the dual nature of biblical symbols, which often have both spiritual and practical implications.

Again, I see no need for the mark of the beast to be physical. Not anymore than the seal of God needs to be physical. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Thank you for this info. Most definitely will rethink my position of which tribulation I believe.

You're welcome. It's clear to me that you've given this a lot of thought, but I think you need to give it even more thought and study. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Paradise Haven]

Is this passage referring to an individual "man of God" or to the people of God in general? The latter, right?

Absolutely no denying that at all the context surrounding the text confirms that.

That is how I understand the reference to "the man of sin" in 2 Thess 2:3-4. It is referring generally to the people Paul described later in 2 Thess 2.

We have to take a closer look at verse 4, "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." The person pronouns alone show no group or plurality of peoples.

Practical Symbolic Exegesis

What is this?

A made up word meaning using practical truth application and spiritual truths to further clarify Scripture for more clarity.

 

[Tigger Boy]

No. This is specifically jews from the 12 Tribes of Israel. Verse 9, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" This group is distinct from the 144,000

PH, yes I agree that the 144,000 servant/prophets are a separate group from those of vs. 9. Vs. 9 is describing the harvest of the 144,000 servant/prophets and this group in numberless. Yes, the 144,000 are Jews in the same way you and I are Jews, and every child of God today are Jews. Spiritual, not biological which I understand you to infer. If one reasons biological Jews, the 12 tribes would take in all of the nation of Israel only, if one reasons Jews in a spiritual sense [which is how God redefined a Jew after the nation of Israel rejected Him] it would mean Jews from all of the world.

If one were to hold to the interpretation that it is biological Jews, then just how effective would biological jews be in taking the everlasting gospel into different cultures and religions, since they don't believe Jesus is God? On the other hand if it is understood to be spiritual jews they would be believers living in different cultures and having knowledge of that dominate religion, even perhaps a convert from that dominate religion, and much more likely to be heard within that culture. Certainly they would better understand the mind of those of whom they would be sharing the gospel with.

Sound reasonable?

Too, You have not shared with me what you believe are the world wide events that herald the return of Christ.

 

[Paradise Haven]

PH, yes I agree that the 144,000 servant/prophets are a separate group from those of vs. 9. Vs. 9 is describing the harvest of the 144,000 servant/prophets and this group in numberless. Yes, the 144,000 are Jews in the same way you and I are Jews, and every child of God today are Jews. Spiritual, not biological which I understand you to infer. If one reasons biological Jews, the 12 tribes would take in all of the nation of Israel only, if one reasons Jews in a spiritual sense [which is how God redefined a Jew after the nation of Israel rejected Him] it would mean Jews from all of the world.

If one were to hold to the interpretation that it is biological Jews, then just how effective would biological jews be in taking the everlasting gospel into different cultures and religions, since they don't believe Jesus is God? On the other hand if it is understood to be spiritual jews they would be believers living in different cultures and having knowledge of that dominate religion, even perhaps a convert from that dominate religion, and much more likely to be heard within that culture. Certainly they would better understand the mind of those of whom they would be sharing the gospel with.

Sound reasonable?

Too, You have not shared with me what you believe are the world wide events that herald the return of Christ.

PH, yes I agree that the 144,000 servant/prophets are a separate group from those of vs. 9. Vs. 9 is describing the harvest of the 144,000 servant/prophets and this group in numberless. Yes, the 144,000 are Jews in the same way you and I are Jews, and every child of God today are Jews. Spiritual, not biological which I understand you to infer. If one reasons biological Jews, the 12 tribes would take in all of the nation of Israel only, if one reasons Jews in a spiritual sense [which is how God redefined a Jew after the nation of Israel rejected Him] it would mean Jews from all of the world.

If one were to hold to the interpretation that it is biological Jews, then just how effective would biological jews be in taking the everlasting gospel into different cultures and religions, since they don't believe Jesus is God? On the other hand if it is understood to be spiritual jews they would be believers living in different cultures and having knowledge of that dominate religion, even perhaps a convert from that dominate religion, and much more likely to be heard within that culture. Certainly they would better understand the mind of those of whom they would be sharing the gospel with.

Sound reasonable?

Too, You have not shared with me what you believe are the world wide events that herald the return of Christ.

There are varying interpretations regarding the identity and significance of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8. According to this passage, the 144,000 are explicitly described as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. This detail suggests a literal interpretation where the number represents a specific group of Jewish believers. Given that the tribes of Israel are well-defined and the idea of grafted-in believers does not align with being from these original tribes, it stands to reason that the 144,000 are indeed a remnant from the historical Israel who have embraced the message of grace, truth, and faith during the end times.

Theologically, Israel is recognized as God's chosen people, a status that remains significant throughout the biblical narrative. The New Testament teaches that Gentiles have been grafted into the promises originally made to Israel, becoming part of what is often referred to as Spiritual Israel. However, this grafting in does not imply that Gentile believers are directly from the original 12 tribes. Instead, it emphasizes that through grace, all believers—Jew and Gentile alike—are included in the family of God.

In this context, the 144,000 represent a preserved remnant from among the tribes of Israel, who are protected during the tribulation as a testament to God's enduring covenant with His people. They embody those who have responded to the message of grace and truth in a period of intense trial. Their specific mention in Revelation underscores the reality of God’s protection and faithfulness to His promises, highlighting both a literal group of Jewish believers and the symbolic significance of God's covenantal promises fulfilled amidst end-time events.

 

[Tigger Boy]

There is a major problem with your literal interpretations of the highly symbolic book of Revelation. It is causing you to contradict other scripture... You have a great deal of physical chaos and destruction occurring throughout the world in the time just before Jesus returns, but Jesus Himself said this:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus, like Paul in 1 Thess 5:2-11, indicates that people will being going about their normal activities before Jesus returns. They will have no idea of what is coming. He will come as a thief in the night to bring "sudden destruction" upon them from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). They will be in spiritual darkness and have no awareness at all of what is coming just like the unbelievers in the days of Noah and the days of Lot.

You contradict this by saying the events described in Revelation that you referenced "are physical events sent by God, affecting the entire planet, which He owns. This will surely get the attention of the remaining inhabitants on earth to consider the eternal gospel". How does this line up with what Jesus and Paul taught about how things will be before Jesus returns? Not at all. Instead, they will be saying "peace and safety" before He returns (1 Thess 5:2-3) while they go about their normal activities. Please think about this and adjust your understanding of the book of Revelation to fit with what is taught in the rest of scripture.

SJ, I will add further insight for your consideration, in regard to your objections raised in your previous post #153.

In that post you have a few proof texts listed therein, which reveal that the coming of Christ will be a surprise to all as the inhabitants of earth go about they daily routines. These were given to counter/make void all the texts I used in my #149 post, from Rev., to support the world wide destructive events heralding the return of Christ.

All the texts both of us used are in reference to the return of Christ, so how do we resolve our differences?
Do we concede the Bible is a contradiction? Or is our understanding of it flawed? I believe it's the latter of the two options. Here is a profound statement that I believe is true and will solve our difference:

"BiblicalTruth" is only know/realized when we discover the harmony between the sum of all its parts."

With that rule in mind we must use both your texts and mine to arrive at an understanding of the return of Christ, because the bible doesn't contradict itself. Therefore, in order to harmonize our understanding of all these texts and more, one has to understand that the term, "the Day of the Lord," is not just single day, but rather a series of events (the tribulation) leading up to His actual appearance in the clouds. Though you nor I have mentioned the bowl judgements in our past post, I'm sure you must believe in them, they most certainly take place over a few days or more.

Then to understand the statements, " that Christ coming will be like a thief in the night, or people will be eating and giving in marriage," would mean they will not be anticipating or mentally prepared for the day of the Lord the beginning of the tribulation.

You quote Mat. 24:35 and Lk. 7:26, "As it was in the days of Noah," Did not Noah preach the destruction of the earth for 120 years prior?

In closing let me ask you a hypothetical question. Suppose you were born in a culture and a religion that does not know Jesus. Would you rather He come as a thief in the night as you understand it, or would you rather it be as I have just explained it, in which the eternal gospel will be given to all before the end comes?

Too, which of our understandings best reflects to Love that God has for all of mankind?