What is the impact of Evolution on the doctrine of Salvation?

Erik Nelson · Jul 7, 2018

Inkfingers said:
So are you saying that we evolved to the point of goodness (in which case we need a teacher not a sacrifice nailed to a cross to appease justice over a sin)?

Or are you saying that we evolved so far and then God put something extra in us to take us into Eden (in which case, if we fall back into carnal, he could just as easily do the same again rather than having his son nailed to a tree to appease justice)?

The whole sacrifice of Christ thing really only works if we were created from scratch as perfect and then fell. Anything else means we just slipped back into the same pre-existing evolved condition that God bloodlessly brought us out of in the first place.

how long did it take for humans to be "created from scratch as perfect [and then fell]" ?

TE would hypothesize that humans were created from scratch -- from star dust -- over 4.5Gyr of constantly-guided evolution...

and then "fell" by rebellious disobedience...

you seem to be positing a time prior to Divine Intervention on earth...

but Scripture [with a flexible TE interpretation] says earth has been under Divine Influence straight from the original star dust of the proto-solar nebula

Erik Nelson · Jul 7, 2018

Inkfingers said:
The one and ONLY instance, your reference of which ignores Gen 2 explicitly saying that man was made into Eden not GM'd out of monkeys...

Like I said, I'm a long-standing proponent of TE. I'm not hostile to it (far from it!) but when I compare that to the idea of the fall from perfection I can see that Evolution is about rising up from a beginning state of imperfection, but the Fall/Atonement doctrine is about being made perfect and falling down from that. The two are diametrically opposed.

the "perfection" that made the pre-Fall state "good" (Gen 1) was that God's sovereign control over God's cosmic realm was uncontested, everything happened according to Divine Plan...

until man was brought about with some capacity of free will, ability to choose good or bad, ability to choose to obey or resist God's Will...

and when man chose to sin, to resist God's Will, the previously perfectly "good" state became "bad"

per Gen 1, God's Creation was "good" by the end of Biblical Day 1, "good" on Day 2, etc. It remained "good" for a whole Biblical Week of time... until Eden.

From a TE interpretation, things were "evolving" "upwards" in some sense of complexity (say)… but at all evolutionary stages, everything was "perfectly good" because it was all per God's Plan...

the "bad" was early humankind's resistance to God's Will & Plan

the Fall is not about "evolving" to "de-evolving", but about obedience to disobedience to Divine Will

Inkfingers · Jul 7, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
the Fall is not about "evolving" to "de-evolving", but about obedience to disobedience to Divine Will

You have to look at each from it's own values and perspective.

Under evolution, we start low and mortal, and ascend - needing a teacher not a punishment.

But the doctrine of the fall says we started high and immortal, and fell, bringing death into being and needing a redemptive sacrifice to pay the price of the failing.

The two are polar opposites.

AV1611VET · Jul 7, 2018

Speedwell said:
When was Adam "perfect?"

Prior to the Fall.

Speedwell said:
The Bible doesn't tell us.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Speedwell · Jul 7, 2018

Inkfingers said:
So are you saying that we evolved to the point of goodness (in which case we need a teacher not a sacrifice nailed to a cross to appease justice over a sin)?

Or are you saying that we evolved so far and then God put something extra in us to take us into Eden (in which case, if we fall back into carnal, he could just as easily do the same again rather than having his son nailed to a tree to appease justice)?

The whole sacrifice of Christ thing really only works if we were created from scratch as perfect and then fell. Anything else means we just slipped back into the same pre-existing evolved condition that God bloodlessly brought us out of in the first place.

What I don't understand is why you put so much emphasis on the purported perfection of out physical bodies before The Fall. What makes you think we were physically any different after than we were before?

Speedwell · Jul 7, 2018

AV1611VET said:
Prior to the Fall.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So I am supposed to take the word of some random guy on the internet that "very good" means "perfect according to what I think perfect should mean?"

hedrick · Jul 7, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Under evolution, we start low and mortal, and ascend - needing a teacher not a punishment.

Kind of. I think it's misleading to see evolution as ascent. As I recall biology, the point isn't that evolution produces "higher" beings. Each being is adapted to a niche. None is better in any moral sense than others. It's not like the Kingdom is going to come through evolution.

If sin requires redemption, that's true whether Adam and Eve were ever sinless or not. The method of redemption needn't be different. I believe we disagree on just what the atonement is, but that would be the case whether Adam and Eve existed or not.

Incidentally, Paul's idea isn't that redemption occurs either via teaching or punishment, but through regeneration. We die with Christ to the old live and rise with him to a new one. Before you say that this death is vicarious punishment, Paul actually explains what he means in Rom 6:7 "For whoever has died is freed from sin."

The Words of Institution and Heb 9-10 see Christ's death as a covenant sacrifice to establish the new covenant, not a punishment for our sin.

Inkfingers · Jul 7, 2018

Speedwell said:
So I am supposed to take the word of some random guy on the internet that "very good" means "perfect according to what I think perfect should mean?"

They were perfect enough to be in the presence of God and not be burned to a crisp.

How much more perfect do you want?

Inkfingers · Jul 7, 2018

hedrick said:
Kind of. I think it's misleading to see evolution as ascent.

Survival of the fittest favours the more intelligent and those who are better able to form cohesive communities. To suggest that it does not have an intrinsic value set is to misunderstand it.

Speedwell · Jul 7, 2018

Inkfingers said:
They were perfect enough to be in the presence of God and not be burned to a crisp.

How much more perfect do you want?

LOL! How perfect is that? Burned to a crisp? What irreligious nonsense.

Speedwell · Jul 7, 2018

BTW, if you are going to try and prove that the ToE is contrary to the doctrine of The Fall, it would be better to use the real ToE, not your lurid and improbable imaginary version.

AV1611VET · Jul 7, 2018

Speedwell said:
So I am supposed to take the word of some random guy on the internet that "very good" means "perfect according to what I think perfect should mean?"

Yes ... I understand that academia can't wrap its collective knowledge around the concepts of "maturity" and "purity" -- as demonstrated with their problem with Jesus being born of a virgin, a word most scientists can't fully understand.

But for the record:

When God creates something, you can consider it "perfect."

And moreso if He pronounces it "very good."

And I guarantee you ... I guarantee you ... if God creates something ... there ain't no scientific device made that will be able to find a flaw in it.

Science is myopic, and as Isaiah put it:

Isaiah 54:17a No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper;

Those "weapons" would also include microscopes & telescopes & everything in between.

hedrick · Jul 7, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Survival of the fittest favours the more intelligent and those who are better able to form cohesive communities. To suggest that it does not have an intrinsic value set is to misunderstand it.

There are a number of ways for a species to succeed. That's one way. Being big and fierce is another way. Being microscopic and invasive is another. For humans, being intelligent and cooperative is an advantage, I agree.

Speedwell · Jul 7, 2018

AV1611VET said:
Yes ... I understand that academia can't wrap its collective knowledge around the concepts of "maturity" and "purity" -- as demonstrated with their problem with Jesus being born of a virgin, a word most scientists can't fully understand.

But for the record:

When God creates something, you can consider it "perfect."

And moreso if He pronounces it "very good."

And I guarantee you ... I guarantee you ... if God creates something ... there ain't no scientific device made that will be able to find a flaw in it.

Science is myopic, and as Isaiah put it:

Isaiah 54:17a No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper;

Those "weapons" would also include microscopes & telescopes & everything in between.

Basically what you are doing is putting arbitrary, man-made limits on God.

Inkfingers · Jul 7, 2018

hedrick said:
There are a number of ways for a species to succeed. That's one way. Being big and fierce is another way. Being microscopic and invasive is another. For humans, being intelligent and cooperative is an advantage, I agree.

Smart and cooperative beats dumb and uncooperative. Which means that natural selection favours intelligence and the ability to form cohesive groups over their absence.

But we digress - this is not yet another thread on evolution in that sense.

AV1611VET · Jul 7, 2018

Speedwell said:
LOL! How perfect is that? Burned to a crisp? What irreligious nonsense.

Irreligious?

LOL

Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Why do you think priests wore bells on the hems of their robes?

Exodus 39:26 A bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate, round about the hem of the robe to minister in; as the LORD commanded Moses.

AV1611VET · Jul 7, 2018

Speedwell said:
Basically what you are doing is putting arbitrary, man-made limits on God.

Wow -- just wow.

Speedwell · Jul 7, 2018

AV1611VET said:
Wow -- just wow.

Yeah, that was my reaction. What God means by "perfect" has to be fully comprehensible and agreeable to you or He is wrong.

Inkfingers · Jul 7, 2018

Speedwell said:
Basically what you are doing is putting arbitrary, man-made limits on God.

Who is good but God, we hear in the NT. But in the OT God not only said that all of creation was good....but that it was VERY good.

You need to head back to Dartmouth harbour before you sink and take down good pilgrims with you...

SkyWriting · Jul 7, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Oh, so God did not make the heavens and earth from scratch?

I think this conversation, such as it is, has gone as far as it can go.
Cheerio

I try to go with scripture over time honored traditions.
I was looking for creation Ex Nihilo but couldn't find it.
So now I wonder who made it up?

What is the impact of Evolution on the doctrine of Salvation?

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