What is the Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism?

[redleghunter]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

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Romans 5: NASB

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[BABerean2]

Romans 5: NASB

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you are correct, every aborted baby was guilty of every sin Adam ever committed, and is therefore burning in hell.
Is this what you believe ?


17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

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[BABerean2]

Watch a Calvinist talk out of both sides of his mouth when it comes to the death of infants...

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[renniks]

What I quoted from was not the Vulgate. Romans 5 confirms we all inherit the sin of Adam.

that wasn't the question... I never even commented on that. The question was whether Augustine had an accurateble translation.

 

[redleghunter]

that wasn't the question... I never even commented on that. The question was whether Augustine had an accurateble translation.

What is the passage in question you believe was a poor translation? I do know of the debate on the word 'jusify' which Augustine worked with from the Latin and not the Koine Greek.

 

[renniks]

Watch a Calvinist talk out of both sides of his mouth when it comes to the death of infants...

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That makes absolutely no sense in Calvinist theology. Either you are born elect or you are not. But, I see this inconsistency over and over in the ones who subscribe to some kind of compatibilism. At least the hyper calvinist, although his doctrine is what Wesley called the "horrible decree" is consistent.

 

[redleghunter]

that wasn't the question... I never even commented on that. The question was whether Augustine had an accurateble translation.

What is the passage in question you believe was a poor translation? I do know of the debate on the word 'jusify' which Augustine worked with from the Latin and not the Ko

If you are correct, every aborted baby was guilty of every sin Adam ever committed, and is therefore burning in hell.
Is this what you believe ?

Why would you conclude that? Do you not believe a child who dies (even in the womb) would be saved the same way as everyone else? We are saved by Grace Alone in Christ Alone.

Only a Pelagian would conclude as you have and what I posted and linked from Augustine where he shows their argument as meriting God's Grace.

So you do not remove the 'issue' of inheriting Adam's condemnation by stating babies are without sin. You look for how God saves His people. And that is by Grace.

 

[redleghunter]

Watch a Calvinist talk out of both sides of his mouth when it comes to the death of infants...

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Completely consistent when considering the Revealed Nature of God. God is Good all the time, all the time God is Good.

Perhaps read the transcript?

 

[redleghunter]

That makes absolutely no sense in Calvinist theology.

Why do you think that?

Either you are born elect or you are not.

Who says the Doctrines of Grace is limited to those who are born. Was not the eternal decree before the foundations of the earth?

 

[BABerean2]

So you do not remove the 'issue' of inheriting Adam's condemnation by stating babies are without sin. You look for how God saves His people. And that is by Grace.

Do you believe the elect babies are saved when aborted, while the non-elect babies are not saved when aborted?

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[redleghunter]

Do you believe the elect babies are saved when aborted, while the non-elect babies are not saved when aborted?

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Did you actually read the transcript of that video presented of John Piper? If so you would not be asking this question.

And was I unclear in stating that those who die before being able to comprehend and speak words are saved the same way as those who can. It is by Grace.

 

[BABerean2]

It is by Grace.

It is because they are not sinners.

Every man is guilty of his own sin, instead of all of the sins of Adam.

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[redleghunter]

It is because they are not sinners.

Every man is guilty of his own sin, instead of all of the sins of Adam.

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That would be ignoring both Romans 3, 5 and reality. If we are not guilty of the one sin which leads to death then why did Paul say "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,"

Then we have the fact we are all mortal and die. Even babies in the womb, outside the womb die and the result is not their own sin but the sin of Adam. As we see "and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."



By limiting or ignoring clear Biblical doctrine you have to come up with a theology which declares we are all innocent of any sin or the consequences of sin until we actually consciously sin. The Bible does not support this. In fact Paul makes it clear the consequences of sin is death.

Only One was conceived and born and lived without sin. That is Jesus Christ. And it is through Him, with Him and in Him that we have Salvation Alone by Grace.

So whether we die in the womb, at age 2 or 92, we are saved by God's Grace.

 

[BABerean2]

As we see "and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

When did the unborn baby sin?

Are these babies "men"?

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[redleghunter]

When did the unborn baby sin?

Are these babies "men"?

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Again the answer is in the context of the passage:

Romans 5: NASB

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

 

[BABerean2]

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 1

Based on your interpretation of the passage, am I not responsible for my own sins?

Am I only responsible for the sin I inherited from Adam?

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[redleghunter]

Based on your interpretation of the passage, am I not responsible for my own sins?

We are most definitely responsible for our sins.

Am I only responsible for the sin I inherited from Adam?

The sin of Adam condemns us.

 

[BABerean2]

The sin of Adam condemns us.

Luk_11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

1Co_15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Gal_1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1Pe_2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn_3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Rev_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

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[redleghunter]

Luk_11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

1Co_15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Gal_1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1Pe_2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn_3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Rev_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

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Can you explain the point you are trying to make?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

All of the Early Church Fathers before Augustine held to a different viewpoint of free will.

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Not according to the Book of Romans.
Makes for good reading.
And straightens the matter right out.
It ain't about us
and it is all about God.

Man always wants to think
that he has his hand in everything.

Little man -- where were you when?

M-Bob