What is the Catholic, Orthodox or your own Protestant denominational view on universalism?

[Hmm]

For instance, Article 16 of the 39 Articles brings up the concept of deadly (or mortal) sin and seems to indicate that salvation is impossible without repentance.

But please bear in mind that universalism, just like every other mainstream Christian tradition, is Christo-centric and insists on a repentance of sins, and is entirely consistent with the Nicene Creed. It just believes that this repentance can take place in the next age (aion).

For those Protestants who don't believe that there is a next age, please think about what NT Wright means by one of his pet phrases: "Life after life after death".

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Thanks. The EO theologian DB Harts says this about the status of the Synodikon. Do you have any comments?

"The Synodikon is just a compendium, and at times a congeries, and possesses only as much authority as what it is quoting at any point. In itself it is no more binding on the conscience of an Orthodox than the Baltimore Catechism or a Thomist manual is on the conscience of a Catholic.

In modern times some Orthodox have begun to claim that all local synods and councils are doctrinal authoritative and so Orthodoxy has just as many exact doctrinal formulae as Rome. Call it magisterium-envy. But in fact the ancient canonical view is that only an ecumenical council can ratify a synod as doctrinally binding. And it’s been a while, you know.

Simply said, if it isn’t one of the promulgations of the seven councils, then it’s nothing but the record of how certain clergymen at a certain time and place understood the tradition (usually over against those blasted monks). And then there is the question of what certain councils–the 5th of course–really said."

It is not just a local council but rather a general consensus of councils, Church Fathers, and statements from the Orthodox church that does not permit universalism. Hart is a lone voice speaking out against the collective statements of the Holy Catholic and Orthodox Church. Even those like myself pray and hope that all may be saved, realize that hell is locked from the inside. Even C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce alludes to the notion that those in Hell desire to remain there.

The Real Roots of Universalism | A Russian Orthodox Church Website

Find me a general consensus of Orthodox clergy, councils and Church fathers pointing towards universalism. Hart only speaks for himself and is not clergy nor a bishop. I've yet to find any priest or bishop who says that he is right and that includes my seminary education.

 

[Hmm]

It is not just a local council but rather a general consensus of councils, Church Fathers, and statements from the Orthodox church that does not permit universalism. Hart is a lone voice speaking out against the collective statements of the Holy Catholic and Orthodox Church. Even those like myself pray and hope that all may be saved, realize that hell is locked from the inside. Even C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce alludes to the notion that those in Hell desire to remain there.

The Real Roots of Universalism | A Russian Orthodox Church Website

Find me a general consensus of Orthodox clergy, councils and Church fathers pointing towards universalism. Hart only speaks for himself and is not clergy nor a bishop. I've yet to find any priest or bishop who says that he is right and that includes my seminary education.

But that's not what Hart was saying. It's nothing to do with "local councils" as you're claiming. He's saying that the Synodikon has not been ratified by an ecumenical council of the Orthodox church and so is not an authoritative statement. Now, is that true or false?

That Hart is a "lone voice" is merely your subjective opinion and has no bearing on this question.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Read the question... Are you a member of a church? If so, what, if any, is the view of your church?

Non denominational and my church believes that Universalism is a damnable heresy.

 

[Hmm]

Non denominational and my church believes that Universalism is a damnable heresy.

Wow, that sounds like a well-considered opinion and certainly something that needs to be taken seriously /s.

Thanks though. Your posts do go towards understanding why the perception of universalism is as it is.

What's the name of your church btw, assuming you're not ashamed to share it? I've never heard of a non-denominational church and can't quite get my head around the concept but if you tell me its name, I'll Google it and hopefully understand how such a thing could possibly be. Thanks in advance.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It would be particularly good to hear from Catholics or Orthodox Christians because we don't often hear their views on this subject. If you're Protestant, like me, and you'd like to contribute, would you please only give what you believe is the established view of your denomination, if it has one, rather than your own personal viewpoint.

I'll kick off by quoting a couple of, admittedly pro-universalist, views by members of the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox church that I read recently. It would of course be good to hear any viewpoint, whether that's pro, anti or neutral.

EO representative:

"There's no issue with Universalism in Orthodoxy, it's a permitted view. At least one of the Cappadocian Fathers who are highly revered in our Church, St. Gregory of Nyssa, was an avowed Universalist, and the theologoumenon of St. Isaac the Syrian is very convincing on the subject!"

Catholic rep:

"Catholics can believe all will be saved. We believe that "hell" as a state of rejection of God's love is at least theoretically possible; but there's nothing that says we have to believe anyone will be in that state.

Pope Benedict XVI wrote in Spe Salvi about how most people have an underlying openness to God, and "our defilement does not stain us forever" as long as we continue to reach out toward God.

It's a teaching of the Church that mitigating circumstances can reduce personal culpability for sin; and "mortal sin" actually requires 3 elements which include full knowledge and full consent, but it's not infallibly defined what those specifically mean. So along the line's of DBH's reasoning, I would say that since it's irrational to reject God, it's possible that no one is actually, in the right mind, intending to reject God as God truly is.

As others noted, Pope Francis has encouraged Fr. Richard Rohr, whose teachings strongly imply universalism and Pope Francis has straight-up said "the Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, not just Catholics, everybody!""

As I recollect, both the Southern Baptist and the Christian Church/Instrumental churches I used to hold membership at tended to frown upon the Universal option ...

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

But that's not what Hart was saying. It's nothing to do with "local councils" as you're claiming. He's saying that the Synodikon has not been ratified by an ecumenical council of the Orthodox church and so is not an authoritative statement. Now, is that true or false?

That Hart is a "lone voice" is merely your subjective opinion and has no bearing on this question.

He is not a bishop nor a priest nor does he have ANY official standing in the Orthodox church other than an educated layman.

Here are statements not only from priests but from Orthodox jurisdictions.

Defending the Synodikon

Recently, on the First Sunday of Great Lent, we read the Synodikon in church—well, actually just a tiny snippet of it dealing with the legitimacy of icons and that this faith had established the world, while offering a heartfelt “Memory Eternal” for those who had died defending it. We did not...

www.oca.org

The Synodikon of Orthodoxy

Whosoever, therefore, shall confess Me before men, him will I confess before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me bef...

www.johnsanidopoulos.com

Synodikon of Orthodoxy | Serbian Orthodox Church [Official web site]

arhiva.spc.rs

 

[rturner76]

From what I have read in the Catechism, anybody can make it to heaven but not everyone. Monotheists have a shot but if they don't have a savior, they had better have a lifetime of clean living under their belt as the day of judgment is coming for all. Fortunately, we have an advocate in the son of God.

 

[Hmm]

As I recollect, both the Southern Baptist and the Christian Church/Instrumental churches I used to hold membership at tended to frown upon the Universal option ...

But is that frowned upon in the sense that as a single, though engaged, man I'm often frowned upon by the wives of my married friends who see me as a bad example but even so tolerate me, even though reluctantly, and put me onto my friend or let me through the door, or frowned upon in the sense of Gandlaf vs the Balrog of Moria: "You shall not pass!"

 

[Anthony2019]

But please bear in mind that universalism, just like every other mainstream Christian tradition, is Christo-centric and insists on a repentance of sins, and is entirely consistent with the Nicene Creed. It just believes that this repentance can take place in the next age (aion).

For those Protestants who don't believe that there is a next age, please think about what NT Wright means by one of his pet phrases: "Life after life after death".

Universalism is not something I could accept as an official doctrine and I think I would feel uncomfortable if I heard it preached in the pulpit.
That said, I don't think that as Christians we should put limits on the love and mercy of God.
In my own personal experience, especially dealing with the bereaved, the dying, the mentally ill, and those with debilitating long term health conditions, I have believed for a long time that God is fully aware of the fragility of the human soul and the immense challenges that are faced by many during their relatively short timespan here on earth.

 

[Hmm]

He is not a bishop nor a priest nor does he have ANY official standing in the Orthodox church other than an educated layman.

Forget the ad homs. I'm not interested.

Here are statements not only from priests but from Orthodox jurisdictions.

I'm also not interested in the opinion of individual priests or local Orthodox jurisdictions.

The question I asked you was was the Synodikon, which according to you declared universalism a "heresy, heresy, heresy", ratified by an ecumenical council of the Orthodox church or not.

DBH says it wasn't, and you say, well I don't know what you're saying tbh. The reason I ask the question is because AFAIK this determines Orthodox doctrine. As I said in my OP, this thread is not about individual opinion.

So, in brief, has the Synodikon been ratified by an ecumenical council of the Orthodox church or not? It's a Yes/No question. I don't know the answer which is why I'm asking it and I'm hoping for a straight Yes/No answer.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But is that frowned upon in the sense that as a single, though engaged, man I'm often frowned upon by the wives of my married friends who see me as a bad example but even so tolerate me, even though reluctantly, and put me onto my friend or let me through the door, or frowned upon in the sense of Gandlaf vs the Balrog of Moria: "You shall not pass!"

Being that I'm from the Shire I'd have to ask them individually to find out for sure. But I suppose some of their reactions will depend upon how much of a Universalist flamer you appear to them to be. Do you by chance like to use a whip?

 

[Hmm]

Universalism is not something I could accept as an official doctrine and I think I would feel uncomfortable if I heard it preached in the pulpit.
That said, I don't think that as Christians we should put limits on the love and mercy of God.
In my own personal experience, especially dealing with the bereaved, the dying, the mentally ill, and those with debilitating long term health conditions, I have believed for a long time that God is fully aware of the fragility of the human soul and the immense challenges that are faced by many during their relatively short timespan here on earth.

I feel that's a very human and warm point of view.

 

[Hmm]

Being that I'm from the Shire I'd have to ask them individually to find out for sure. But I suppose some of their reactions will depend upon how much of a Universalist flamer you appear to them to be. Do you by chance like to use a whip?

I only use a whip sparingly and only when justified, and even then so philosophically hesitantly that even if I was whipping an aged and feeble ant they could never tell. And never on myself I hasten to add.

 

[Der Alte]

What denomination is that DA?

A large Southern dwenomination.

 

[Hmm]

A large Southern dwenomination.

"That doesn't sound like a real name", said Holmes raising his eyebrows to an alarming extent.

 

[Der Alte]

"That doesn't sound like a real name", said Holmes raising his eyebrows to an alarming extent.

That wasn't a name it was a description, which should have given you the name. I graduated from their flagship seminary about 4 decades ago. TSBTS.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

"That doesn't sound like a real name", said Holmes raising his eyebrows to an alarming extent.

This is beyond uncharitable and borders on bad faith.

 

[public hermit]

But please bear in mind that universalism, just like every other mainstream Christian tradition, is Christo-centric and insists on a repentance of sins, and is entirely consistent with the Nicene Creed. It just believes that this repentance can take place in the next age (aion).

For those Protestants who don't believe that there is a next age, please think about what NT Wright means by one of his pet phrases: "Life after life after death".

I'm PCUSA, and our denomination takes an agnostic position according to our Catechism:

Question 49. Will all humans be saved?

No one will be lost who can be saved. The limits to salvation, whatever they may be, are known only to God. Three truths above all are certain. God is a holy God who is not to be trifled with. No one will be saved except by grace alone. And no judge could possibly be more gracious than our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I think that's a wise position. I disagree in that I believe God desires that all be saved and that God is able to save all so that it would seem to follow that God will do what God desires and is able to do; nonetheless, given the predominance of the prevailing doctrine and the slow willingness of too many to follow those premises to their logical conclusion, an agnostic position by an institution such as my own makes sense. Thankfully, institutions are not that upon which faith rests.

 

[Hmm]

That wasn't a name it was a description, which should have given you the name. I graduated from their flagship seminary about 4 decades ago. TSBTS.

That still doesn't sound like a name to me but, anyway, does your church have an official stance on universalism?