what is the biblical support for original sin?

[d0c markus]

what is the biblical support for original sin? is there anybody in this forum who doesnt believe in original sin?

 

[oworm]

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

 

[d0c markus]

well i know that... but thats not what im looking for.. babies are innocent, once they learn the difference from right and wrong they sin and become accountable.. where does it say we were born with it.

 

[admtaylor]

We are born with it, it's whether or not we are at a mental level of understanding or not that is the issue.

 

[d0c markus]

where does it say this?

 

[armothe]

I'm not a rockclimber until I climb a rock.
I'm not a swimmer until I swim.
I'm not a musician until I play an instrument.
I'm not a video gamer until I play a video game.

I'm not a sinner until I sin.

-A

 

[Knight]

Psalm 51: 3-5
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

[d0c markus]

there we go... thanks..ive heard arguments that there is no original sin, i will post that later though

 

[water_ripple]

Our flesh is imperfect and fallen before God..it causes a war with our soul. Without Christ as our Saviour we will remain a slave to the fallen ways of the flesh..The reason our bodies die is because of the fallen nature of the flesh, and because of the flesh's imperfection not one flesh can be in the presence of God and survive.

As for infants..thankfully God is merciful...He wouldn't be casting in souls who did not have a chance to mature in spirit.

 

[d0c markus]

Our flesh is imperfect and fallen before God..it causes a war with our soul. Without Christ as our Saviour we will remain a slave to the fallen ways of the flesh..The reason our bodies die is because of the fallen nature of the flesh, and because of the flesh's imperfection not one flesh can be in the presence of God and survive.

As for infants..thankfully God is merciful...He wouldn't be casting in souls who did not have a chance to mature in spirit.

that would constitute original sin (being born with it) not valid then?

 

[Svt4Him]

You can't make a dogma out of one unclear verse. The verse of David is also translated "In sin my mother conceived me" and I submit that David's mother was in sin. Does that mean all who conceive are in sin? No, it is a gift from God. So why was David's mother different? I believe his mother had an affair. I won't die for this belief, but I tend to think it because a. This verse said in sin him mother conceived him b. he was the only son Jesse didn't bring to show the prophet c. usually when a son is ostracized, it's because of shame. The verse in Romans specifically says sin entered the world, not the human race. Granted all will sin, but we aren't born with it, more of a tendancy to be drawn towards it.

 

[d0c markus]

thats my opinion on that matter as well

 

[d0c markus]

argument against original sin:

“. . . the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father . . .” (Ezek. 18:20)

sin starts in our youth.

Gen 8:21 "the lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the lord said to himself "i will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of a mans heart is evil from his youth..." nasb

isaiah 7:15,16

"he will eat curds and honey at the time he knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. for before the boy know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land, the land whose two kings you dread will be foresaken."

Best commentary puts this kid at ages 12-14 before he knows the difference between good and evil, they are not born in iniquity.

eccleisates and hebrews indicate that the spirit is given to us by god, since nothing evil can come from God, its not illogical to say that these newborn souls are not corrupted.

ECC 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,

and the spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV

heb 12:9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live NIV

Psalm 51: 3-5
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

i am inclined to agree with this explanation.

You can't make a dogma out of one unclear verse. The verse of David is also translated "In sin my mother conceived me" and I submit that David's mother was in sin. Does that mean all who conceive are in sin? No, it is a gift from God. So why was David's mother different? I believe his mother had an affair. I won't die for this belief, but I tend to think it because a. This verse said in sin him mother conceived him b. he was the only son Jesse didn't bring to show the prophet c. usually when a son is ostracized, it's because of shame. The verse in Romans specifically says sin entered the world, not the human race. Granted all will sin, but we aren't born with it, more of a tendancy to be drawn towards it.

As i search the net this seems to be the general consensus as to the explanation of it. There are verses i guess in samuel that indicate this as well, and also if you study david's ranting repenting psalms it also indicates that he often employs some dramatic language.

Its up to you what you believe, the verses for you not being sinful until you can know better out weigh this one verse and if you view original sin as valid these verses contradict each other.

 

[armothe]

Matthew 18:3 - "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

What does conversion do for us?
God no longer sees us as a sinner.
Those who appear as sinless enter into heaven.

Matthew 19:14 - But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Only those who have the atoning blood of Christ appear sinless in the eyes of God. These are those who are allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Thus, it can be concluded that children are considered sinless before God.

-A

 

[d0c markus]

Amen!