What is the Best Argument Against the Existence of God?

[ianb321red]

EDIT: I just found this. Gary Habermas fits your expectations of an author, don't worry. He argues that the evidence is inconclusive for the resurrection..

Hi - thanks for the link.
Can you explain to me how you understood that the author reached this conclusion?

 

[SithDoughnut]

Can you explain to me how you understood that the author reached this conclusion?

The final section specifically states that no definite position can be made:

While we have this mystery and some factual evidence in favor of Jesus’ resurrection, additional data from other sources are needed in order to reach a final position.

He certainly seems to lean toward the resurrection being true, but he is a Christian so that is to be expected.

 

[ianb321red]

The final section specifically states that no definite position can be made:

He certainly seems to lean toward the resurrection being true, but he is a Christian so that is to be expected.

Ok -I expect you realise that as this is a chapter on Ancient non-christian sources then this conclusion is referring to what can be drawn just from secular sources.

The additional data from other sources is obviously referring to Christian sources.

Therefore his position at the conclusion of this chapter doesn't refer to all of the known evidence just his conclusion based on secular evidence..

Habermas debated Anthony Flew a few years back, and in this debate he stated that the best evidence for the resurrection was that of the apostle Paul (an unbeliever during Jesus's life) who was an eyewitness to the resurrected Jesus.

The account we have in The New Testament is a powerful first-hand witness of the resurrected Christ and the likes of Michael Martin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Martin_(philosopher)), G.A Wells (George Albert Wells - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) along with Flew himself concede that Paul was a legitimate eyewitness to the resurrection.

The debate is here if you have a spare 2 hours:
Jesus' Resurrection (Gary Habermas vs Antony Flew) - YouTube

There's plenty of material here:
Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

..which demonstrate that Habermas is more than convinced in his arguments and debates for the evidence of the resurrection...

 

[SithDoughnut]

which demonstrate that Habermas is more than convinced in his arguments and debates for the evidence of the resurrection...

Of course he believes it's true, but he also realises that from an objective point of view more evidence is needed. You need non-Christian sources if you're trying to put forward a solid argument, otherwise it's the equivalent of all the witnesses in a trial being the defendant's best friends.

One decent eyewitness, after all, is not nearly good enough for a claim as extraordinary as the resurrection (people can be fooled). It's not like we're dealing with a normal event here, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is especially true for a claim that states that it is possible to return from the dead. It's also important to remember that no one actually saw Jesus rise from the dead; there are no witnesses to the resurrection itself, just the apparent aftermath (a living Jesus).

As for the debate, I have seen it before. I think Flew didn't do a particularly good job, but it's important to remember that a debate doesn't find out who has the best argument, only who is best at arguing.

 

[ianb321red]

Of course he believes it's true, but he also realises that from an objective point of view more evidence is needed. You need non-Christian sources if you're trying to put forward a solid argument, otherwise it's the equivalent of all the witnesses in a trial being the defendant's best friends.

But he did that though didn't he? We've just discussed the chapter is his book which discussed the secular sources of evidence (45 sources if I remember correctly)

So this, plus the biblical evidence is more than comprehensive.

One decent eyewitness, after all, is not nearly good enough for a claim as extraordinary as the resurrection (people can be fooled). It's not like we're dealing with a normal event here, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is especially true for a claim that states that it is possible to return from the dead.

Jesus appeared to approx 500 at one time after he had been resurrected as stated by Paul (1 Corinthians 15:6)

It's also important to remember that no one actually saw Jesus rise from the dead; there are no witnesses to the resurrection itself, just the apparent aftermath (a living Jesus).

That's irrelevant.
You don't need to witness a murder if you find a dead body with multiple stab wounds. You don't need to witness a burglary to your house if you come home and find half of your possessions have been stolen....

 

[SonOfTheWest]

But he did that though didn't he? We've just discussed the chapter is his book which discussed the secular sources of evidence (45 sources if I remember correctly)

So this, plus the biblical evidence is more than comprehensive.



Jesus appeared to approx 500 at one time after he had been resurrected as stated by Paul (1 Corinthians 15:6)



That's irrelevant.
You don't need to witness a murder if you find a dead body with multiple stab wounds. You don't need to witness a burglary to your house if you come home and find half of your possessions have been stolen....

Osiris was said to have been brought back by Isis in front of a large number of Egyptians. The Buddha transcending(or however you would put it) to Nibanna in front of his followers.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Jesus appeared to approx 500 at one time after he had been resurrected as stated by Paul (1 Corinthians 15:6)

That's still one eyewitness, just an eyewitness who claims that there are 500 others.

Anyway, let's leave this tangent for a moment and head back towards the main topic. If we assume that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, how do you get from there to the existence of God?

 

[ianb321red]

That's still one eyewitness, just an eyewitness who claims that there are 500 others.

Anyway, let's leave this tangent for a moment and head back towards the main topic. If we assume that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, how do you get from there to the existence of God?

1)If God does not exist then miracles cannot happen.
2)The resurrection of Christ is a miracle, and could not have happened without God.
3)Therefore, since the resurrection of Christ did happen, God exists.

Additionally:

-It also serves as another piece of historically accurate evidence that would justify the view that The Bible is an accurate body of work, as well as divinely inspired.

-And finally it would also fulfil the predictions made in the Old Testament regarding Jesus's death (Psalm 22 & 69 / Isaiah 53 / Zechariah 12 etc etc). This shows us that The Bible is accurate about both the past and the future.

 

[SithDoughnut]

1)If God does not exist then miracles cannot happen.

Interesting assertion. Why?

2)The resurrection of Christ is a miracle, and could not have happened without God.

How do you know that it was a miracle inspired by God and not just a body starting to function again?

-It also serves as another piece of historically accurate evidence that would justify the view that The Bible is an accurate body of work, as well as divinely inspired.

So historical accuracy implies divine inspiration? To claim that this only applies to the Bible is special pleading, so are history textbooks divinely inspired?

 

[ianb321red]

Interesting assertion. Why?

Because I don't believe in chance.

How do you know that it was a miracle inspired by God and not just a body starting to function again?

Well that would be a miracle, wouldn't it?
The resurrection happened after 3 days which coincidently is how long before a human body begins to rot.

So historical accuracy implies divine inspiration? To claim that this only applies to the Bible is special pleading, so are history textbooks divinely inspired?

No - it shows that the text in question is historically accurate.
Only religious texts would make the claim to be inspired by a god of some description. That's why you have to establish whether religious texts are historically accurate to establish whether their claims of divinity can be justified as well.

 

[underheaven]

Disclaimer: I am still a Christian.

I think the best evidence against the "Christian" God is that noone can prove that the "bible" wasn't just made up by various humans. Sometimes I think God is His own worst enemy. He could've made it rediculously clear what is required of man in order to please him...IF he exists. And DON'T tell me it IS clear. If it were so, there wouldn't be THOUSANDS of Christian denominations around the world. There would truly be one church!

To enter 'Heaven 'requires that we pass a series of 'tests' .We must prepare for a higher way of being ,and this is a long process which has been going on since Creation. Unlike most christians I do not believe we are created at birth : we have already been given opportunities to decide whether or not we like,love this Christ. But on the bible being made up by ... .I will not give you the argument that those who like Christ,read the new testament especially, get the gift of the Holy Spirit which opens up the mind and heart to the existence ,experience of God, and His plans for us... No I will not do that . Instead I will tell you that in the sky, all the answers are there ,in a measurable, if in a not too easy formula for one to 'read'. However God does not want us to study Him as though He was a specimen for scientific research ,and then decide that we might or might not accept Him. Instead He has given His laws, and what He is, and who He is, through those who have found the secret to having a relationship with Him, know, not only that He exists, but are transformed by this relationship, which is like no other. That is all in the bible . We must make at least the time ,and the effort to read it ,or get some help in doing so.** Nothing that is worthwhile can be got by simply demanding to have it. Jesus knew that some need proof more than others, like 'doubting Thomas',who needed to put his hands in Christ's wounds,before he would have belief, He was risen from the dead.
**The Catholic Church put the original bible together,and is the best source . .
The church now discusses more on science than ever before ,so .

 

[Celtic D]

To enter 'Heaven 'requires that we pass a series of 'tests' .We must prepare for a higher way of being ,and this is a long process which has been going on since Creation.

What?????????

The only requirement is that you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour and it takes seconds!!!!

 

[underheaven]

Why should I believe otherwise, aside from early childhood socialization/brainwashing, enhanced perhaps if you have the genetic predisposition to believe fantastically ridculous things. For those of us predisposed to careful and critical intellectual examination, logic, reason, and evidence (i.e., for those of us who are smart and who were not derailed at a young age by feeble parents desperate to find security in their inane views by forcefully injecting their kids with the same delusions, thereby weaving a sticky web of social support for lunacy), the world as it is--as it appears and is perceived by the sane and honest among us--will do just fine.

You are clearly young ,and have little experience,therefore you 'see' only
a tiny,minute,fraction of most existence, never mind that of endless universes,dimensions etc.
And some, [people,souls], come equiped to receive and know God, and some don't have that
'equipment', better known to Christians ,as the gift of the Holy Spirit. Without this gift,
withheld from those who deny the existence of Gods/Holy Spirit,who, not having recieved
this essentielle 'insight' ,will perish eventually .They are limited to short term material gains,
which they mistake for their own .

 

[Celtic D]

You are clearly young ,and have little experience,therefore you 'see' only
a tiny,minute,fraction of most existence, never mind that of endless universes,dimensions etc.
And some, [people,souls], come equiped to receive and know God, and some don't have that
'equipment', better known to Christians ,as the gift of the Holy Spirit. Without this gift,
withheld from those who deny the existence of Gods/Holy Spirit,who, not having recieved
this essentielle 'insight' ,will perish eventually .They are limited to short term material gains,
which they mistake for their own .

There is no orthodox denomination that believes such nonsense.

The only retirement is that you invite Christ into your life as Lord and Saviour!