What is the Age of Accountability?

jimmyjimmy said:

How old is a person who is "accountable", if you believe there is such an age.

Also, if a person dies one hour after he reaches this age, whatever it may be, and he is not a Christian, is he condemned?

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In answer to this question of yours, I suppose from the position of Calvinism if a person dies one hour after he reaches this age or any age, it would depend on whether he was elect or not and predestined for heaven or eternal condemnation.

Tangible said:

While this is a lovely sentiment, and one that I share, we simply cannot make up doctrine from our own human hopes and desires. We must base our doctrines on the unchanging word of God. Try as they might, no one has ever discovered a passage of canonical scripture that clearly states that people below a certain age or with a diminished ability to reason are saved in any way other than through faith in the promises of God fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

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I agree. However I'm going to argue that there's an implicit reason to think that young children won't be judged.

I generally base my concept of judgement on Jesus' teachings. The top causes of judgement are uselessness (no fruit, no taste, bad fruit), reject Jesus and message, and failing to forgive. Rejecting Jesus is not quite the same thing as assuming that we start out condemned and need to become Christians to save us. How about no fruit? I very much doubt he would blame a child or a mentally deficit adult for not displaying something he hasn't had a chance to show. If you really want something more explicit, look at Luke 13:6 and Mark 11:13. See also Luke 12:47.

Mark 11:13 may seem like an odd passage to cite, since it condemns a tree for not having figs when it's not the season for figs. Various interpreters try to come up with explanations about during what seasons fig trees have figs and when leaves. I'm not so sure that this makes sense. Following Adela Yarbro Collins, my understanding is that this is a tree that passed the time to bear fruit without doing so. Collins maintains that hearers would have understood a reference to Jer 8:13 or Mic 7:1. The latter seems really close. In context, the point of Mic 7 is that the faithful have departed, so Israel is beyond the point where it can bear fruit. Jer 8:13 also indicates that Israel passed up its chance.

At any rate, this story is dealing with a tree, not a seedling.

Luke 12:47 also has its issues. There are a few other places where Jesus speaks of various levels of punishment. It's pretty clear that Jesus expects varying degrees of reward and punishment. Christians have often spoken of it as if there was just heaven and hell, and nothing else. Jesus' teachings don't seem consistent with that. I'm convinced that he teaches that even his servants will be held accountable. 1 Cor 3:12 offers a description of that. I do believe there are people who are so drastically opposed to God that they will be rejected. But I'm not so convinced that the light beating in Luke 12:47 indicates hell at a lower temperature, but rather a servant who is being held accountable.

In summary, my understanding is that rejection in the final judgement requires a person who has rejected Christ. This isn't something that someone who is too young or disabled can do. It also doesn't require a magic cutoff age.

The magic cutoff age always sounds odd to me, as it suggests that God is prejudiced against adults.

jimmyjimmy said:

Do you believe that people are all given an "equal chance" to believe the gospel?

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It is a statistic that there are people who have not heard the gospel and maybe never will. However, in Romans 1 Paul tells us that God has made Himself known, but people have chosen toreject and suppress this knowledge.
He tells us later in chapter 10 that people must go for others to hear. So, even if they have not heard the gospel, they would have some knowledge of God.

Yes, the gospel is more accessible in some parts of the world than others.

jimmyjimmy said:

I know the Calvinist position pretty well, thanks. I wanted your view.

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Well, at least that's something, you didn't accuse me of not understanding the Calvinist position.

Tangible said:

So baptize your babies.

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This is not necessary as they have not reached the age of accountability. An baby that is not baptized is also not accountable and is not damned....

Telling mothers and fathers that they must baptize their infant child or it will go to hell is the biggest lie and has driven more people from the truth of the gospel than anything.

This is the whole topic of this thread........ there is an age, or level of mental competency, at which a person becomes aware of the wrong that they are doing. At this point, and not before, they become responsible for their sins or wrong doings and need to seek their savior.

Our merciful and gracious savior will not damn anyone who does not have the mental capacity to understand or be aware of the fact that they are doing wrong... Period.

jimmyjimmy said:

How old is a person who is "accountable", if you believe there is such an age.

Also, if a person dies one hour after he reaches this age, whatever it may be, and he is not a Christian, is he condemned?

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There is no actual age, as if God held a person accountable for their sins based on the relationship between their birth and the Earth's position relative to neighboring stars or the phase of the moon.

The age of accountability is a best guess within the early and current Church when an individual is accountable within their community for the confession of their sins.

jimmyjimmy said:

I agree.

So if someone has never heard the gospel he is judged by his rejection of natural revelation, or because he broke God's law?

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They have rejected the general revelation of God through nature. They are condemned at death if they are not saved.

If they (those in false religion) do not accept Christ, they are condemned at death.
This is the need for missionaris, evangelism. Paul makes it clear, they must hear to believe , confess and cannot hear unless others go.

jimmyjimmy said:

So, people are condemned eternally, who would otherwise be saved if only a missionary were sent to their village rather than another one. Is that what you are saying?

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Rather than another one?

jimmyjimmy said:

OK. So if a person reaches that "point" of accountability unsaved, and he dies, he is condemned, correct?

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Yep, IMO

JacksBratt said:

This is not necessary as they have not reached the age of accountability.

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"Necessary" sounds like you see baptism as Law, not Gospel. What is necessary is only that God acts to justify sinners for the sake of Christ alone, with no merit or worthiness under the law on our part.

And there is no "age of accountability" because all mankind fell in Adam's fall.

Romans 5
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

An baby that is not baptized is also not accountable and is not damned....

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I certainly hope this is true, but scripture just doesn't consistently speak this way. Why not simply take God at his sure and certain word and bring your babies to him to receive all the gifts God has promised to give in Holy Baptism?

Telling mothers and fathers that they must baptize their infant child or it will go to hell is the biggest lie and has driven more people from the truth of the gospel than anything.

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I can't imagine ever telling parents that. How awful! But equally awful is to tell them to withhold all the gifts God promises to give them through Holy Baptism!

This is another case of your viewing baptism as Law and not as Gospel. It's nothing about what happens to someone if they're NOT baptized. It's everything about what God gives to those who ARE baptized. According to the clear word of Holy Scripture, these are just some of the gifts God gives through the washing of water with the Word - with no age restrictions! and no prerequisites!

Titus 3:5-7: God saves us by his mercy, apart from works. He regenerates us and renews us in Christ by giving us his Holy Spirit. He graciously justifies us and makes us heirs with Christ of eternal life.

1 Corinthians 6:11 God sanctifies us and justifies us in the name of Jesus by the Holy Spirit. In giving us his Holy Spirit, all that is Christ's becomes ours through the wondrously Great Exchange.

1 Peter 3:21: God saves us and gives us a clean conscience before God through the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And how could we ever have a clean conscience before Our Holy God except through the alien righteousness of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

Galatians 3:27: God clothes us in Christ. He covers the filthy rags of even our best fallen works with the perfect works and merit of Jesus Christ. He dresses us up in pure, pristine white wedding clothes, appropriate attire for the marriage feast of the Lamb.

This is the whole topic of this thread........ there is an age, or level of mental competency, at which a person becomes aware of the wrong that they are doing. At this point, and not before, they become responsible for their sins or wrong doings and need to seek their savior.

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By this statement you seem to be saying that there are certain prerequisites to salvation, that God requires us to have certain abilities or to perform certain mental acts before he will grant us salvation. I think you would be hard pressed to find justification for this belief in scripture. Again, you seem to be coming at not just baptism but salvation in general as law, law, law, law. That's hardly good news!

The Gospel is that Jesus Christ has done absolutely everything necessary for our salvation, and that through the Holy Spirit God freely gives us his precious gifts of forgiveness of sins and eternal life in the presence of God by grace alone, solely through his gift of faith in Jesus Christ alone, for our justification and sanctification apart from any works or merit that originate from us.

Our merciful and gracious savior will not damn anyone who does not have the mental capacity to understand or be aware of the fact that they are doing wrong... Period.

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Since Decisionists like to use examples from the Old Testament regarding who was allowed to enter the Promised Land, I will ask you some other Old Testament questions:

Did God spare the children of the Canaanites from being killed along with the rest of their tribes? (Deuteronomy 7:1-6) Was he neutral toward the infants and children of the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites?

Did he instruct the Israelites to spare the children and bring them along with them into the Promised Land?

Do you think the children of the Canaanites were any more guilty or sinful than any other children before or since? Or any less?

What do you think happened to the children of the Canaanites after they were killed by the Israelites? Were they given a place in Abraham's Bosom like the children of Israel who believed the promises of God, or were they condemned with all the others of their tribes? If so, why?

JacksBratt said:

jimmyjimmy said:

OK. So if a person reaches that "point" of accountability unsaved, and he dies, he is condemned, correct?

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Yep, IMO

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Yikes! That's a pretty scary doctrine. Sounds like Law to me!

TheSeabass said:

One at birth has the future capability of sinning after he learns good from evil. The 2 year old then must be taught good from evil and be able to mentally process it as he matures intellectually. I can only guess Jesus went through His 'terrible twos' phase but was without sin.

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Right, and I think we can both agree there is a natural human tendency toward sin, even from birth. That's what I believe original sin is and the scope of it. Albeit, I don't believe a baby needs to be baptized immediately because of this sin. There's sin that leads to death and sin that does not.

jimmyjimmy said:

How old is a person who is "accountable", if you believe there is such an age.

Also, if a person dies one hour after he reaches this age, whatever it may be, and he is not a Christian, is he condemned?

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Good question! The short answer is: There is no "Age of Accountability" with God. Everyone is CONCEIVED in sin, AS a sinner (Psalm 51:5). We are "knit" together by God, but still empty of God's Spirit. God alone chooses when He will "approach" the person's soul/spirit, and if that person (as a spirit/soul being) chooses to receive God, they are saved. Now God, who is Spirit, does not need the person to be a certain age, physical or mental maturity, or even KNOWLEDGE level, before He can save them. Humans are capable of receiving God's Spirit at any age (even pre-birth). God can (AND DOES) fill people with His Spirit, even BEFORE they are born (before they come out of the womb).

The prime example for this is John the Baptist, who was "filled with the Spirit before he (was) born." (Read Luke 1:15). To learn more, research how/when/why John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit when he jumped in his mother's womb.

In short, you can literally be "Born Again" even before you are physically born!

hedrick said:

I generally base my concept of judgement on Jesus' teachings.

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That's fine if you want, but with the understanding that the writings of Paul, Peter, John and the others are no less the word of God, and no less authoritative than the recorded words of Our Lord.

The top causes of judgement are uselessness (no fruit, no taste, bad fruit), reject Jesus and message, and failing to forgive. Rejecting Jesus is not quite the same thing as assuming that we start out condemned and need to become Christians to save us. How about no fruit? I very much doubt he would blame a child or a mentally deficit adult for not displaying something he hasn't had a chance to show. If you really want something more explicit, look at Luke 13:6 and Mark 11:13. See also Luke 12:47.

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For kicks and giggles, I'll quote the passages your referenced.

Luke 13:6-9 (The parable of the fig tree)
And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”

Mark 11:11-14 (Jesus curses an unfruitful fig tree)
On the following day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. And he said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard it.

Luke 12:41-48 (The parable of the faithful and wise manager, explained)
Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?” And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

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So it seems that you are basing this on what is basically the same concept as put forward in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25.

I don't have a problem with differing levels of punishment for those who are rejected on the last day. It seems that merely existing in an eternal place without the presence of God would be the mildest level of separation, with increasing punishment for increasing wickedness and evil committed on earth.

Likewise, I don't really have an issue with gradations in eternal rewards. I believe that there are many who will be highly exalted in the eternal heaven who suffered greatly on earth for the cause of Christ.

The thing about your position that infants and children have not done anything wrong, nor have failed to do anything good, seems to miss one of the main points of Matthew 25: Those who did good were unaware that they had done good, and those who had failed to do good were also unaware of their failure.

It's not that the people who went out and purposely and of their own volition did good were rewarded with eternal life. That would be law. No, the gospel is that for those who are in Christ, God works to love and provide for the needs of their neighbors and gives them the credit. For those who are not in Christ, God still works through them to do his good and perfect will, but they receive only rightfully deserved condemnation for all the evil they have done and the good they have omitted.

As St Paul says in his discussion of whether or not to eat meat offered to idols in Romans 14, whatever that does not proceed from faith in Christ is sin.

God has provided sufficient rope for every human being to hang themselves. He has revealed his law through nature so that no one has any excuse. But the gospel of Jesus Christ must be given through the word. It is not evident in nature. It does not come in silence. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

God allows no neutrality when it comes to Christ. Either you are for him or you are against him. The natural man cannot comprehend spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned. Without the Holy Spirit, no one can say "Jesus is Lord."

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

98cwitr said:

Right, and I think we can both agree there is a natural human tendency toward sin, even from birth. That's what I believe original sin is and the scope of it. Albeit, I don't believe a baby needs to be baptized immediately because of this sin. There's sin that leads to death and sin that does not.

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Whether concupiscence is sin for which God holds us accountable was one of the major debates between the Roman Catholic church and the Reformers during the Reformation. The Catholics held that there is a distinction between sins, that concupiscence was not a damnable sin, and that baptism only was effective in removing original sin and not for actual sin. The Reformers held that there is no distinction between sins, that both concupiscence and actual sins are mortal sins for which Christ died, and that through baptism God acts to forgive all sins both actual and otherwise.