what is that they are promoting deeper fellow junk?

[DaRev]

I don't know, but there are plenty.

And that is truly sad.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

When someone says they are pro-choice, I think I CAN judge their heart and know that it isn't Christian. Because, like DaRev, I believe that a pro-choice moniker is a euphemism for being pro-abortion. Being pro-abortion is NOT a Christian attribute. Being pro-choice is NOT a Christian attribute.

If I were to say that I wouldn't commit adultery but I don't find fault with those that do, or I wouldn't judge those that do, that is not Christian behavior.

I never thought you were debating abortion, Vle. What I disagree with is the notion that I can't judge someone's heart when they are not acting like Christians. The bible tells us pretty straight forward that that is EXACTLY what we are to do.

The bottom line is that I do not think you can be pro-choice and be Christian. I think to be pro-choice compromises your Christianity.

 

[Protoevangel]

vle045,

OK, what if someone personally believed it was wrong to kill children until the children reach adulthood, but "will allow others to make their own decisions and let their own conscience be their guide"?

They would never do it themselves, they would never suggest that others do it themselves.

Would you then question whether that person were really Christian as they claimed?

Just curious.

Now you are just being silly. It's not the same thing.

It is EXACTLY the same thing. Murder is murder, no matter how anyone tries to obfuscate it with duplicitous language and smokescreen it with false logic.

 

[Jim47]

I can agree that someone can request an abortion and still be a Christian, but here lies the danger. God has called it a sin, and when we ignore God's word and tell Him our wishes and desires are more important then His then we denying our faith. The more we do this the weaker our faith becomes. This stands true for all sin, not just abortion.

We must confess our sins, our weaknesses and ask God to help give us true repentance.

While its not for us to judge another by their sins, it is our responcibility to warn others when they live in sin. If we fail to warn them, then we too are guilty according to Luther's large cathesism, and he writes everything as given direction from scripture.

So it our duty to tell others when thet error, and to help them to repent. We do this out of love, not judgement or hatred. But to tell someone that their sin is not so bad is a lie. All sin is punishable and deserves hell.

I only wish I could leave my sinful flesh

 

[RadMan]

Regardless, it doesn't make someone NOT CHRISTIAN. A Christian person is a believer in Christ. Period. Where they are in that journey and their understandings of the teachings does not alter whether they are Christian. A Christian is a believer in Christ. Simple. There's no degrees or levels or good, better, best.

I am not talking about whether abortion is right or wrong, I am talking about judinging someone's Christianity.

I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining myself. I was NEVER trying to debate abortion.

Was Hitler a Christian?

 

[vle045]

I can agree that someone can request an abortion and still be a Christian, but here lies the danger. God has called it a sin, and when we ignore God's word and tell Him our wishes and desires are more important then His then we denying our faith. The more we do this the weaker our faith becomes. This stands true for all sin, not just abortion.

We must confess our sins, our weaknesses and ask God to help give us true repentance.

While its not for us to judge another by their sins, it is our responcibility to warn others when they live in sin. If we fail to warn them, then we too are guilty according to Luther's large cathesism, and he writes everything as given direction from scripture.

So it our duty to tell others when thet error, and to help them to repent. We do this out of love, not judgement or hatred. But to tell someone that their sin is not so bad is a lie. All sin is punishable and deserves hell.

I only wish I could leave my sinful flesh

That's kind of what I was getting at.

Possibly along the same lines of judging the action not the person. Like when a parent has to discipline their child, they still LOVE their child... just not the action. And even though the child disobeyed the parent, they still (usually) love their parent. And sometimes they are sorry. And as they grow older and wiser, their views on things change. I know every time I have to scold my son, I still tell him that I love him and I give him a hug. He's still really young and I want him to learn right from wrong AND I want him to feel loved and secure. And even if he REALLY screws up in life, I want him to know that he will always be my son and I will always love him. Even if I do not approve of his actions. And hopefully, if he feels that love and security, he will be sorry for his poor choices and learn to do better next time.

Such is the same with God. We may sin against him (disobey) at times... and we may disagree. But HE alone will give us our punishment that HE feels we deserve. And only HE knows our hearts and why we may make poor choices. And as we grow closer to HIM and understand more and more what HE wants from us, then sometimes our views will change. And whether we are still babies in our faith and don't really understand what HE wants or if we are seasoned veterans and have great understanding of what he wants - we are STILL HIS children (aka Christians)

 

[Jim47]

I'm not sure if I was clear on this. There is a difference between falling into sin and willful sin. When we neglect the warnings we are given and seek to committ the sin reguardless then we have committed a grave sin. We also put our faith into serious danger. Satan takes every opportunity to tell us "thats Ok, you're just weak and its not so bad". All sin is bad, very bad, willful sin is very dangerous.

As for God punishing us, not so. Jesus took all our punishment upon Himself. We are not punished for our sins, God punished Jesus in our stead.

If we fall from faith, then yes, we are punished eternally, and we are no longer God's children.

 

[vle045]

I'm not sure if I was clear on this. There is a difference between falling into sin and willful sin. When we neglect the warnings we are given and seek to committ the sin reguardless then we have committed a grave sin. We also put our faith into serious danger. Satan takes every opportunity to tell us "thats Ok, you're just weak and its not so bad". All sin is bad, very bad, willful sin is very dangerous.

As for God punishing us, not so. Jesus took all our punishment upon Himself. We are not punished for our sins, God punished Jesus in our stead.

If we fall from faith, then yes, we are punished eternally, and we are no longer God's children.

And in order for a sin to be "willful" we have to understand that it is a sin and that we are making a conscientious decision to do it anyways. But as long as we are alive - we still have room to learn, grow, and understand and to ask for forgiveness, right? And that "punishment" (meaning whether we ultimately go to heaven or hell) is not decided until the time of our death. Whether we go to heaven or hell, only God knows that. No one among us can determine that. And by calling someone not Christian, we are claiming to know what is in that person's heart and what their fate will be. But we can never really know that, no matter what we think.

 

[DaRev]

God gave us His law. We know what His law is. Someone who knowingly breaks God's law and is unrepentent is destined for hell. It's in black and white.

While we can't know what's in someone's heart, we certainly can see with our eyes and hear with our ears to know when someone is clearly sinning against God's word. There is no way to justify violating clear commands of God. None.

Christians are held to two commands. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength," and "Love your neighbor as yourself." When one knows the difference but goes against these anyway, we can certainly question their faith.

 

[vle045]

God gave us His law. We know what His law is. Someone who knowingly breaks God's law and is unrepentent is destined for hell. It's in black and white.

While we can't know what's in someone's heart, we certainly can see with our eyes and hear with our ears to know when someone is clearly sinning against God's word. There is no way to justify violating clear commands of God. None.

Christians are held to two commands. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength," and "Love your neighbor as yourself." When one knows the difference but goes against these anyway, we can certainly question their faith.

Right... and my point is in your words ***Knowingly***.

Just because you know something as true doesn't mean someone else does.

And the other part is ***unrepentant***.

You may see an action and know it's against God's law. The person doing that action may not know it.

At some point in the future they may come to know it the same way that you do. It may take 100 times of hearing something before they know it to be true for whatever reason.

And they may repent the next day or ten years later.

I think it is two different things to judge an action and to judge a person.

How would you feel if someone called you not Christian because of whatever sin you struggle with... knowingly or unknowingly? Perhaps you are lazy or prideful or lust after your neighbor's wife... maybe you give in to one of those sins, for whatever reason. Are you now no longer Christian? Are you less Christian than someone else?

Or is it part of you faith walk... where you have the opportunity to learn and grow... and ask for forgiveness?

And how are we loving our neighbor by judging them and accusing them of not being Christian and not loving God?

 

[Jim47]

Those who put all their trust in Jesus as their Savior do indeed know that they will be saved. This is a promise from our Savior and The Lord. Its those who are still trying to help in some way on their own to work out their righteousness that are in danger.

What I am talking about is decision theology. This teaching is prevelant in many churches, but its not scriptural. The decision was always God's, not ours. We are by nature creatures of sin and unbelief, natural born enemies of God and COMPLETELY incapable of seeking God on oursleves. Our nature and every inclination is only to seperate oursleves from God and to sin, sin , sin.

The Holy Spirit calles us to faith. Only by His work are we able to come to faith in Christ as our Savior. We simply don't have any desire or ability of ourselves to seek God. Yes! This is quite true and scriptural.

There are many scriptures we could show you, but this will tell you exactly what I have said to be true.


Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


The following verse shows the correct teaching of good works. Good works, fruits of the faith are a gift from God, and they flow from a heart of love for their Savior in thankfulness for all His love and sacrifice.

Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[Protoevangel]

Something seems to be getting confused here. There is a huge gulf between 1) claiming that what is sinful is "ok" (being pro-choice) and 2) falling into sin (the woman who gets an abortion).

We were talking about #1, but sometime after post #43, the subject began to change. Jim's point was important to bring up, so I do not mean to blame, it's just that the subjects seem to have become confused in the following posts.

As far as what we were talking about, those who defend abortion are teaching evil. Plain and simple. Those who continue to teach evil, and do not repent are estranged from the Holy Spirit. Holy Scripture makes this very clear. I believe that the Lutheran confessions back me up on this, as well.

As for this new subject, the woman who gets an abortion may be as much a victim as the child who is murdered. Being complicit in murder is still a sin, and must be repented of. This is often a very delicate situation, and must be handled pastorally.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Something seems to be getting confused here. There is a huge gulf between 1) claiming that what is sinful is "ok" (being pro-choice) and 2) falling into sin (the woman who gets an abortion).

We were talking about #1, but sometime after post #43, the subject began to change. Jim's point was important to bring up, so I do not mean to blame, it's just that the subjects seem to have become confused in the following posts.

As far as what we were talking about, those who defend abortion are teaching evil. Plain and simple. Those who continue to teach evil, and do not repent are estranged from the Holy Spirit. Holy Scripture makes this very clear. I believe that the Lutheran confessions back me up on this, as well.

As for this new subject, the woman who gets an abortion may be as much a victim as the child who is murdered. Being complicit in murder is still a sin, and must be repented of. This is often a very delicate situation, and must be handled pastorally.

 

[DaRev]

Something seems to be getting confused here. There is a huge gulf between 1) claiming that what is sinful is "ok" (being pro-choice) and 2) falling into sin (the woman who gets an abortion).

We were talking about #1, but sometime after post #43, the subject began to change. Jim's point was important to bring up, so I do not mean to blame, it's just that the subjects seem to have become confused in the following posts.

As far as what we were talking about, those who defend abortion are teaching evil. Plain and simple. Those who continue to teach evil, and do not repent are estranged from the Holy Spirit. Holy Scripture makes this very clear. I believe that the Lutheran confessions back me up on this, as well.

As for this new subject, the woman who gets an abortion may be as much a victim as the child who is murdered. Being complicit in murder is still a sin, and must be repented of. This is often a very delicate situation, and must be handled pastorally.

You hit the nail on the head here, Dan. Those who support and defend abortion on demand are "preaching another Gospel" and thus their faith can indeed be questioned.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Thanks, guys, for wording it a way that I somehow couldn't!!

 

[Protoevangel]

Thanks PreachersWife2004 and DaRev. I was afraid that perhaps I was going to far, being a guest in y'alls forum.

I am not trying to debate with our friend vle. But this forum still feels very homey. It's easy to slip back into old habbits.

 

[vle045]

You guys just don't get it... and never will. We will have to agree to disagree because you will only see what you want to see and not consider the larger picture.

1. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. It is far far more complex than that.

2. It is not our place to judge others unless we too are without sin.

 

[DaRev]

1. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. It is far far more complex than that.

Then what is it if it isn't pro-abortion? It has always been about "abortion rights".

2. It is not our place to judge others unless we too are without sin.

We are most certainly called to judge our erring brothers and sisters. It's called applying the Law. It is how they are brought to repentance.

 

[Jim47]

You guys just don't get it... and never will. We will have to agree to disagree because you will only see what you want to see and not consider the larger picture.

1. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. It is far far more complex than that.

2. It is not our place to judge others unless we too are without sin.

Show me one place in the bible that supports your opinion and I will agree with you.

Its not what we think is right, its what God has said is right.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The term pro-choice is not used in any other way other than to describe someone who supports the right of a woman to choose to end her pregnancy via abortion.

Being pro-choice means someone thinks that it is okay for a woman to choose to end her pregnancy. That means they think abortion is okay.

Substitute abortion with pre-meditated murder. Doesn't sound so great anymore, does it?

Vle, I am wondering. Are you pro-choice? That certainly would explain the strong defense of the term.

The bible directly tells us to judge our fellow believers, right here:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=15&end_verse=17&version=31&context=context
and

Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him..."

and

Matthew 18:15
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you..."

In ALL of these cases, we have to judge someone to be doing something wrong in order to correct them or rebuke them.

Where the bible says we shouldn't judge is in matters where we are being hypocritical. For example, if I'm living with my boyfriend, I can't very well judge the woman who is having premarital sex. I'm not living the life I am preaching to others.



And yeah, Vle, you are right. I will not ever get it. I will never get why a Christian would ever want to say that it is a woman's RIGHT to have her pregnancy terminated. Why a Christian would ever say that it is okay to CHOOSE to end a life. That will NEVER make sense to me.

We put people like Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer in prison for taking the lives of children, yet we sit and say that there is nothing wrong with the taking of millions of unborn babies' lives.

I will never get it.