What is so wrong with this?

servant4ever · Jul 8, 2004

I don't know if this makes sense to me. Since God elects certain people, then, to me at least (maybe you can correct me here), it seems like we are not responsible for sin since God chose to save us from sin. Also, since sin seperates people from God, then the people who are not elected are not responsible for their sin because they have no choice to choose God or not? I'm not trying to argue here, I'm just trying to clarify things. That does confuse me with the view of God's election and responsiblity of sin...

Wilfred of Ivanhoe · Jul 8, 2004

servant4ever said:
I don't know if this makes sense to me. Since God elects certain people, then, to me at least (maybe you can correct me here), it seems like we are not responsible for sin since God chose to save us from sin. Also, since sin seperates people from God, then the people who are not elected are not responsible for their sin because they have no choice to choose God or not? I'm not trying to argue here, I'm just trying to clarify things. That does confuse me with the view of God's election and responsiblity of sin...

Concering the elect, no,they are not given a license to sin.

Romans 6:6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

As to those who have not been ordained to eternal life since the foundation of the earth, they have free will, a free will to sin constantly. They will be held guilty for their sins on the day of judgement. A sobering thought.

Knight · Jul 8, 2004

Try to look at things from God's perpective.......

God is absolute moral perfection. He cannot be in the presence of sin.

He creates man to love Him, worship Him, and be loved by Him.

Man falls (sins, violates God's moral perfection) and the result is the sin nature.

The result of the sin nature is an eternity separated from God. Man stands condemned before God.

God, as part of his soveriegn plan from the beginning, chooses to provide salvation through the cross of Christ to a select (or, elected) number of people based on no merit they've earned but through grace.

By default, man stands condemned due to original sin. It is this original sin that prevents the natural man from seeking god. It is God who must regenerate the individual in order for them to seek Him. God chooses who recieves this regeneration.

Are the unsaved then not responsible due to the lack of recieving God's grace? Absolutely not. Man is a moral creature. We start out condemned due to the sin nature which we inherited from Adam.

Why, then, does God regenerate some but withold His grace from others? The answer is simple but not easy for many to accept...... To bring Himself glory.

I understand this is confusing stuff.... Believe me I struggled with these things as well. Don't expect to become an expert over night.

servant4ever · Jul 8, 2004

Then why didn't God just create everybody to be perfect and have us worship Him forever in Heaven, instead of 20-30,000 years of humans not worshipping Him on this sinful earth?

Knight · Jul 8, 2004

servant4ever said:
Then why didn't God just create everybody to be perfect and have us worship Him forever in Heaven, instead of 20-30,000 years of humans not worshipping Him on this sinful earth?

The easy answer is:

I don't know. I'm not God. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

I'll make a point that there have been people worshiping God since the creation of man. He has made sure that we have not ignored Him.

servant4ever · Jul 8, 2004

Sorry, I didn't mean everybody wasn't worshipping Him, but I was just saying why would He want people not worshipping Him, since He created them? I do recognize we are not God, so please don't be thinking I'm saying that

Knight · Jul 8, 2004

No problem. I was merely illustrating.

The answer still lies in the simple fact that God's ultimate reason for creation and everything since is to bring Himself glory.

Remember, we do not see the big picture. He does. (Or rather He is the big picture )

I will provide a friendly warning though.... Your posts are tetering on the brink of debate, which is not permitted here. This is understandable given the content.

We (The Reformed community) enjoy answering honest questions. Even the hard ones. Keep them coming.

servant4ever · Jul 8, 2004

Yeah, I have been noticing that the last few questions, sorry about that. I am not trying to debate in my intentions, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what Calvinism believes. Believe it or not, I may realize that Calvinism is the correct doctrine.

Knight · Jul 8, 2004

servant4ever said:
Yeah, I have been noticing that the last few questions, sorry about that. I am not trying to debate in my intentions, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what Calvinism believes. Believe it or not, I may realize that Calvinism is the correct doctrine.

In that case you may be interested in looking at some material that I referenced when researching this.

www.mslick.com

This is one of the best and easiest to understand descriptions of Calvinism that I've seen.

servant4ever · Jul 8, 2004

Hey, thank you Knight! I'm done with my questions for right now because I have a paper due in a little while! Tomorrow evening for sure I'll ask more questions

servant4ever

Gabriel · Jul 8, 2004

servant4ever said:
But what if we don't choose the stronger desire? Like with my example of my major? I really really want to major in Bible, but I am majoring in business because I'm too weak to stand up against my parents...

So, obviously you're strongest desire is to avoid conflict with your parents. You desire to major in Bible, yet you desire to remain at peace with them even more.

Gabriel · Jul 8, 2004

servant4ever said:
Yeah, I have been noticing that the last few questions, sorry about that. I am not trying to debate in my intentions, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what Calvinism believes. Believe it or not, I may realize that Calvinism is the correct doctrine.

Although you are stretching the rules a bit, I believe you are doing it with the best of intentions. As long as you continue in this respectful and sincere manner, you are fine with me. Sometimes in order to ask a valid question, a bit of your view must be given. We welcome your questions and fellowship.

There is a book by John MacArthur called "The Body Dynamic". I receommend you at least read the first chapter. It explains Election very well in easy to understand terms.

I posted the following in another thread here. Check it out and consider carefully the difference in who completes the work of your salvation. Also, read Romans 9 slowly, thoughtfully and prayerfully. All of it.

Honestly, the reason it matters to me is that if a person thinks they earned their salvation because they chose Him, they are missing grace and God's sovereignty altogether. God freely gave those whom He chose the gift of salvation. Ephesians tells us that it is not by our works, but by God's will. Let me put it to you this way; If I offer you $10 and I put it on the table and tell you that I offer it freely, but you must reach out and pick it up, isn't it by your work completing my work that you become $10 richer? Now, if I wanted to give you $10 and I want you to have it by my work and will, not yours, I would choose you to receive the money, I would place it in your empty wallet and you would love me out of appreciation for my gift freely given.

servant4ever · Jul 8, 2004

Hi Gabriel,

I surely will read Romans 9. I have to get my paper done and I have a prayer meeting in 75 minutes, but I will do it tonight!

servant4ever

Bro. Gabriel · Jul 8, 2004

Read a book by one of my Elders, "Their God is Too Small" by Bruce A. Ware.

servant4ever · Jul 8, 2004

Hello,

I did read Romans 9. I do see the verses that say "I have compassion on those I have compassion" and that type of stuff... I do see where the Calvinists are coming from, but I just have a hard time reconciling the freedom issue. Like, let's say God elected this one person, but this person does not go to church because of their free will. Could this be possible in the Calvinist perspective?

theseed · Jul 9, 2004

Well, in and of itself, I see nothing wrong with theism. But when I have read God's word, I see that God has his hands in everthing, and is Sovereign over all.

But if you are referring to free will, then know that "election to grace is consistant with the free agency of man, and comprehends all means in connection with the end" (Baptist Faith and Message)

theseed · Jul 9, 2004

We know that darkness (people) do not overcome the Light (Christ)--John 1.5, 9, 18; 3.18-21).

servant4ever · Jul 9, 2004

theseed said:
We know that darkness (people) do not overcome the Light (Christ)--John 1.5, 9, 18; 3.18-21).

oh, so you are saying that the person elected will go to church and become saved someday? I guess that does make sense, and yes, I was referring to free will, not freedom, sorry about that!

theseed · Jul 9, 2004

servant4ever said:
oh, so you are saying that the person elected will go to church and become saved someday? I guess that does make sense, and yes, I was referring to free will, not freedom, sorry about that!

Someone elected will be saved, that much i can say. It's not a forgone conclusion they will go to church. But, those who have the Spirit bear fruits of the Spirit, and reap eternal life.

servant4ever · Jul 9, 2004

How else can you become saved other than an altar call? I'm just curious as I've only seen people become Christians during the altar call.

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