What is so wrong with Mormonism?

[BigNorsk]

To realize what is wrong with Mormonism, one needs to go back to it's founder, Joseph Smith. He claimed to be a prophet. He claimed to "translate" several things, including the Book of Mormon. For some reason he made up quite a story about some golden plates and how they are the original Book of Mormon. He claimed they were written in a nonexistant language, reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics. It doesn't matter much if they existed or what language they were, the way he claimed to 'translate' was he sat in a chair, put a witching stone on his forehead and covered his face with his hat. At that point, he claimed the words of the reformed Egyptian and the translation scrolled past like on parchment.

Where it is really obvious to see what a liar Joseph Smith was is with the so called scroll of Abraham he also claimed to translate. This scroll came from and Egyptian mummy and was written in hieroglyphics which at the time basically couldn't be read by more than just a handful of people.

Well anyway Smith concoted this whole story about it and how it came from Abraham and he "translated" it. What makes it so important is the scroll exists, and nothing the self proclaimed prophet claimed about it was true. And now hieroglyphics can be translated and guess what. What Joseph Smith said the scroll said, has nothing to do with what it really says.

He was a sham artist who fed on the ignorance of the people of the day and was part of the whole Millerite, end of the world, prophets standing all over the place time.

The only strange thing is that anyone believes a word the guy said. He is clearly a false prophet (foretold the end of the world along with all the other false prophets of his time) as well as a demonstrable liar as anyone would conclude after examining the issue of the scroll of Abraham.

It's a terrible thing to have your entire foundational truths be based on lies and many don't want to face it. But that's what's wrong with Mormonism.

Marv

 

[Aibrean]

The Mormon thread needs help in the unorthodox theology.

 

[BigNorsk]

Well the basic breakdown in theology is that God only reveals things like scripture through the oracles of God. We see the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament Apostles. And the people recognized who were the oracles as we went along.

Then comes Joseph Smith, who claims to be such an oracle. And he makes up this story so at first it doesn't appear like it originates with him, it's a lost book brought by an angel to him. There's just a few problems. One that God promised to preserve his word. Losing it for close to 2000 years while the church continued with mistaken scripture doesn't really fit the concept of preservation.

Secondly, the scriptures weren't just written in any language. There is absolutely no instance of scripture being written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. Imagine what a breaking of God commandment going to Egypt and writing scripture would be. God told the people of Israel never to return to the land of Egypt (Deu 17:16) and we see in the New Testament that God gave the oracles to the people of Israel. (Romans 3:2). It is just incompatible to think that God's oracles went and learned a modified form of hieroglyphics that has never been discovered and wrote scripture in that language.

Plus we already have the other proof that Joseph Smith was not an oracle of God such as foretelling in the name of God the end of the world that didn't come to pass. As well as that he clearly concocted other untruthful tales such as the scroll of Moses which is also accepted as scripture.

True scripture tells us to test prophets. There is no meaning of the word test under which Joseph Smith stands up. Therefore the basic doctrine is to ignore him as a false prophet.

It isn't too useful to argue the rest because that is the foundation. If someone accepts Joseph Smith, then you can quote the bible all day at them and they just believe it has been changed and is mistaken. Joseph Smith started on a "translation" of the KJV which he never really finished. His theory was all sorts of things were cut out and so he added and added to it. One branch of Mormonism accepts his "translation" as scripture. The main group doesn't. Really the Bible is relegated by them to a mistaken untrustworthy mess. So it doesn't do any good to quote scripture to them, they just think it's all mistaken and turn to their false Prophets and Apostles. People who continue to change things, even Joseph Smith's writings. It's just a make it up as you go religion.

Marv

 

[mpok1519]

again, none of these things explain why mormonism is 'wrong'.

right and wrong are moral issues, and when someone chooses their faith, nothing can be 'wrong' with it because ultimately one is simply striving for spiritual benevolence. its not like choosing mormonism is taking someone's life, stealing, debacherous anything that is truly wrong.

its another faith.

if we as Christians are simply going to badmouth other faiths as wrong, evil, defiling and lies, NO WONDER its so hard to convert new followers.

if a mormon ever read these posts, do you think you could convert him/her to your church? Of course you couldn't, especially if you were pointing the finger, calling them liars and heretics.

so ultimately your point would be, mormonism is wrong because its filled with lies and heresay? interesting. It simply perpetuates the schisms and divisions of people as people have done for thousands of years, but its an interesting point.

From a Christian point of view, it is wrong, but from a generalized non-biased point of view, there isn't anything wrong with a faith thats not your own.

 

[Aprill]

again, none of these things explain why mormonism is 'wrong'.

right and wrong are moral issues, and when someone chooses their faith, nothing can be 'wrong' with it because ultimately one is simply striving for spiritual benevolence. its not like choosing mormonism is taking someone's life, stealing, debacherous anything that is truly wrong.

its another faith.

if we as Christians are simply going to badmouth other faiths as wrong, evil, defiling and lies, NO WONDER its so hard to convert new followers.

if a mormon ever read these posts, do you think you could convert him/her to your church? Of course you couldn't, especially if you were pointing the finger, calling them liars and heretics.

so ultimately your point would be, mormonism is wrong because its filled with lies and heresay? interesting. It simply perpetuates the schisms and divisions of people as people have done for thousands of years, but its an interesting point.

From a Christian point of view, it is wrong, but from a generalized non-biased point of view, there isn't anything wrong with a faith thats not your own.

I love the taste of indifferent ism in america...

No really Mormons did early in their church teach that marriage to more than one woman is acceptable and pleasing to God. That is MORALLY WRONG.

I'm not one to judge but simply a church that teaches you can become God, is in fact harmful to others in the Christian community and no, it may not convert anyone by me saying that, but it may convince someone else to make sure the TRUTH is heard.

 

[mpok1519]

the majority of mormons do not practice poligamy, however.

And back in Biblical times, it was encouraged for a Jewish man to have more than one wife if he could afford it for procreative purposes, as Judaism was a very small numbered sect in need of numbers, which is also why I think mormonism once accepted polygamy; for the simple purpose of strength in numbers. Thats a little-known but very true fact. And I wouldn't be able to give you a link for evidence either. (she was my anthropological cultural sexuality professor, and she was Jewish, so I assume she wasn't lying based on her credentials). Sure, Christians aren't Jewish, but they are inherently linked together.

some Christians believe once you reach Heaven you become one with God. In a way, as if becoming a god by assimilating oneself into Him. ~shrug~ just somethign to wrap your mind around....

I'm defending mormonism because someone has to. I don't practice it, nor would I ever consider practicing it, but I'd never look down on someone, or see them as being lesser of a person for being Mormon, nor see them as being wrong. thats just not good for the human heart. My heart.

 

[Aprill]

the majority of mormons do not practice poligamy, however.

And back in Biblical times, it was encouraged for a Jewish man to have more than one wife if he could afford it for procreative purposes, as Judaism was a very small numbered sect in need of numbers, which is also why I think mormonism once accepted polygamy; for the simple purpose of strength in numbers. Thats a little-known but very true fact. And I wouldn't be able to give you a link for evidence either. (she was my anthropological cultural sexuality professor, and she was Jewish, so I assume she wasn't lying based on her credentials). Sure, Christians aren't Jewish, but they are inherently linked together.

some Christians believe once you reach Heaven you become one with God. In a way, as if becoming a god by assimilating oneself into Him. ~shrug~ just somethign to wrap your mind around....

I'm defending mormonism because someone has to. I don't practice it, nor would I ever consider practicing it, but I'd never look down on someone, or see them as being lesser of a person for being Mormon, nor see them as being wrong. thats just not good for the human heart. My heart.

Seriously, the attitude you have is good in a way, I mean it's good someone is defending it. However, "looking down on them" isn't something anyone in here has done. They have explained why it is wrong from their stand point, which is what the author of this post asked us to do. The poster did not ask for someone to defend it, and if the poster did which I assume that since she is Mormon she could do it herself and be educated about it....since most Mormons do make sure their youth is well educated about their faith.....

I agree with what my friends have said, and I have had Mormon friends (including a preachers son...) Mormons have good family values and a good sense of what really being a missionary is like.....

Doesn't mean I have to agree with them. And knowing the truth, well thats good for my heart .

 

[mpok1519]

then really, nothing is really wrong with mormonism, only the intrinsic values held by the individual itself.

 

[mpok1519]

and I also think that, yes, Christianity DOES look down upon all other religions. Going through these forums I find people at each other's throats over dumb stuff that has no real bearing on anything in life. and sadly, seeing Christianity SO split up on each extreme end of the spectrum, I have found out that Christianity is a multi-secular religion. No one church fully agrees with any other one church, each with its own identities and characteristics, different from the next, much like fingerprints.

Yet I am continually confounded to see Christians giving arguments that have nothing to do with faith or religion; religion is more of a cultural thing; faith is an individual thing; and yet middle-schoolers are trying to explain the firstchapter of genesis with science when they havn't even graduated beyond the eighth grade yet, and the most difficult concept to understand in the eigth grade is a big wordlike photosynthesis.

I would just like to see Christians REACHING to other religions rather than pushing away, which is ALL I see here and everywhere else.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

The way I see it is [Truth vs. Lies], do you really expect us all to just think highly of lies and treat it as if it could be the truth? Through differences in Christians, we learn. We're not a cult, we have minds and we use them to think. Mormonism is pretty much the blind leading the blind, dosen't Jesus condemn this himself?

 

[MessianicJewishGuy]

What is wrong with mormonism? The Book of Mormon. It isn't in the bible. Yes, I have heard that its an addition to the Bible, but the Bible isn't to have additions or subtractions - Rev 22: 18-19/Galations 1:8-9.

I have two family members who are mormon and I'm aware of their beliefs.

The Book of Mormon is accredited by the the Mormons to be an addition to the Bible. However the Bible was sealed and no further Scripture is authorized according to Yeshua HaMashiach in Revelation chapter 22:

Revelation 22 (King James Version)


1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[mpok1519]

yet people have since the Bible's conception have added, deleted, and redacted words, chapters and even entire books from the Bible, not just mormonism. Christians are the majority of people who've done this.

the book of enoch was written before revelations, yet, no one seemed to have a problem with getting rid of that book.

 

[MessianicJewishGuy]

yet people have since the Bible's conception have added, deleted, and redacted words, chapters and even entire books from the Bible, not just mormonism. Christians are the majority of people who've done this.

the book of enoch was written before revelations, yet, no one seemed to have a problem with getting rid of that book.

The problem is that it is claimed to be written before the flood. Therefore there is no evidence to it being authoritative at all. The Bible is founded on massive amounts of authoritative manuscripts and Enoch is not part of them.

 

[mpok1519]

I guess I'm not really understanding the whole 'authority' thing. and how do you know they had good authority? Perhaps the deuteronomists used bias and indeterminism to make their decision. Doubtful, but not beyond the realm of possibility.

Also, the Bible has been redacted many times throughout the entire manuscript, after revelations was written.

 

[MessianicJewishGuy]

I guess I'm not really understanding the whole 'authority' thing. and how do you know they had good authority? Perhaps the deuteronomists used bias and indeterminism to make their decision. Doubtful, but not beyond the realm of possibility.

Also, the Bible has been redacted many times throughout the entire manuscript, after revelations was written.

Actually the Earliest Manuscripts have shown this to by a false claim. There have been those who have attempted to make false Bibles however the 25,000 for the NT alone have caused great embarrassment for these false teachers. Archaeologist have discovered many of the Manuscripts that show the Word of G-d has not been altered. There are also many secular writings from the Romans that support the scriptures. With all the evidence together that is to much to go on about; the people trying to discredit the Word of G-d are left with no excuse.

 

[BAFRIEND]

What is so wrong with Mormonism? Please back up any objections you have with scripture. And yes, I do accept the Deuterocanonicals as inspired scripture for the purposes of this thread.

Well, for one thing not a sinle archetectual claim can validate the history of the Book of Mormon. For instance, the BoM mentions coins that have never been located anywhere, unlike the ones in the Bible which we have relics of today.

If the Mormons take their book so seriously, how come no one is digging out in the desert of Utah trying to find some of the cities or societys or coins the Book of Mormon claims to have existed ?

 

[BAFRIEND]

Actually the Earliest Manuscripts have shown this to by a false claim. There have been those who have attempted to make false Bibles however the 25,000 for the NT alone have caused great embarrassment for these false teachers. Archaeologist have discovered many of the Manuscripts that show the Word of G-d has not been altered. There are also many secular writings from the Romans that support the scriptures. With all the evidence together that is to much to go on about; the people trying to discredit the Word of G-d are left with no excuse.

True. the Dead Sea Scrolls back you up and are a tribute to the care and custodianship of the Jewish faith over the Word.

For a long time a debatable point in Christianity was over the existence of Pontious Pilate. Then ancient Roman documents unearthed in 1961 proved his existence as a Roman official.

I would like to see just one of those coins mentioned in the Book of Mormon unearthed.

 

[MethodMan]

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