What is sin?

JIMINZ

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Am I correct in understanding that as referring to the law in this we are talking about the way Jesus represented it as the first 2 commandments (love the lord your god...) and we are therefore not including all the other laws given in the Torah? (I mean things like how to wash and offering and cleanliness etc.)
'
Yes you are correct, the first two, everything after that followed by a Christian becomes Legalism

Luke 10:25-28
25) And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

If I take the following statements from you: (I might be wrong in any of them sorry)
1. We know sin by the law given in the Bible/Torah
.
1) No, we know sin because of the fall of Adam, we have a fallen Nature.
In Adam we died Spiritually, and will die Physically.

1 Cor. 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom. 5:12,14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Through Baptism, we are made alive in the Spirit again, that is being Born Again

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2 Co.5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rom. 6:4,5
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

If I take the following statements from you: (I might be wrong in any of them sorry)
2. Until we are made aware of this law/sin we are not accountable
.
Same as above.

I might be understanding something wrong, but aren't there things in the bible that also indicate that God has placed somehow also given man a consciousness and therefore can sin even before the law/gospel is revealed to him?
.
No sin is because of Adam's Fall, everything I said above.
1Cor. 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Paul says that all things are lawful for him but not all are expedient. His sensitivity to believers with weaker consciences might be the reason for that. He is prepared not to do things that he would consider right for him if it means that another believer could be damaged by trying to copy him and then have his conscience condemn him.

We have meat Christians and milk Christians. Believers are at different stages on their growth in grace. Some are further along in their development and therefore their consciences are stronger because they know where they stand with Christ and they can say that all things are lawful for them. Less developed believers are still sensitive about certain actions, for example, drinking alcohol, eating certain foods, boy/girl relationships, etc.

The problem is that we have many believers whom I would call selfish, because they don't care about those with weaker consciences. They go off and do things which are right for them, not caring that others copy them and then fall into condemnation and discouragement because in copying they have wounded their own less developed consciences.

Those with weaker consciences are ones who would say that a certain action is wrong, when it is just wrong for them. We see this on this forum in some of the debates about what is sin and what is not. The Christlike way for me is that I would not eat food from a Hindu temple or drink alcohol in the presence of other believers if it meant that they became bold enough to copy me and then get in trouble with their consciences.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Ok will think about this... however I don't want to derail the thread from the original question to much, math here was simply an example of an action that is not directly "devoted to telling His children what He has revealed..."

So you are saying that all "actions" (meaning things we do in life) other than that of directly leading people to God (evangelizing) is sin?
I'm not sure if I'm deducing this correctly from what you are saying perhaps you can correct?

People learn maths to improve themselves, get a job, feed themselves.

This is what Jesus taught against that project:

Matthew 6:
19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and
24“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

25“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27“And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? 28“And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

See what God commands and what is the opposite:

Luke 11:23
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
 
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Marcaunon

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Yes you are correct, the first two, everything after that followed by a Christian becomes Legalism

Luke 10:25-28
25) And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


.
1) No, we know sin because of the fall of Adam, we have a fallen Nature.
In Adam we died Spiritually, and will die Physically.

1 Cor. 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom. 5:12,14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Through Baptism, we are made alive in the Spirit again, that is being Born Again

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2 Co.5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rom. 6:4,5
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


.
Same as above.


.
No sin is because of Adam's Fall, everything I said above.
1Cor. 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Thank you for your reply.
I do see that you are making a case for the teaching of original sin here.
Which I will perhaps ask more questions about when I had some more time to think carefully.
A verse that came up a lot is 1 John 3:4 which seems to mostly not be attributed towards this specific teaching.

However to clarify my reply which you answered here was in response to the original message in post #11 by Soyeong and therefore we should perhaps give him/her a chance to answer/clarify in this regard if he/she wants to.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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People learn maths to improve themselves, get a job, feed themselves.

This is what Jesus taught against that project:

Matthew 6:
19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and
24“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

25“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27“And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? 28“And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

See what God commands and what is the opposite:

Luke 11:23
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
I hope I'm getting this right. Are you saying that people should just sit on their acres on the couch and do nothing to improve themselves so they can get a better paying job to support their families, and just have government welfare as their income?

Doesn't the Scripture say that if a person doesn't work, neither let him eat? So, how is a person going to get a reasonable job in our society unless they get some sort of qualification?

There are children of religious people who are neglected and go in rags and hungry because their parents spend so much time in voluntary church work that there is not enough money in the home to support the family, and they are so busy that they never really spend time with their children. Jesus said that anyone who does not provide for his or her family is worse than the lowest dregs of society.

So, if a person has ability in Maths, and decides to make a career out of it and becomes qualified enough to get a reasonably paid job to support his wife and family, is that serving mammon? I don't think so. He is merely following the principles that Jesus taught for ordinary people.

What Jesus disapproves of are people who make money their god, and that like religious people who go over the top with church work and activities, these ones spend all the time in business just to make money. Jesus talks about those people when he tells the story of the man who pulls down his barns to build bigger ones to store his produce, and therefore his wealth. Israel was an agricultural economy and produce was stored in barns to be sold. The more produce a farmer had, the wealthier he was. A farmer who grew enough produce just to make a normal living for himself and his family is not the one serving mammon. But the one who lives to increase wealth over and above that has a love for money and it is that love that is the root of all evil according to Scripture.
 
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JIMINZ

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Thank you for your reply.
I do see that you are making a case for the teaching of original sin here.
Which I will perhaps ask more questions about when I had some more time to think carefully.
A verse that came up a lot is 1 John 3:4 which seems to mostly not be attributed towards this specific teaching.

However to clarify my reply which you answered here was in response to the original message in post #11 by Soyeong and therefore we should perhaps give him/her a chance to answer/clarify in this regard if he/she wants to.
.
Please forgive me, I clicked off for awhile and when I came back I misread and answered your post to Him thinking it was for me OOPS :doh:
 
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Wordkeeper

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I hope I'm getting this right. Are you saying that people should just sit on their acres on the couch and do nothing to improve themselves so they can get a better paying job to support their families, and just have government welfare as their income?

Doesn't the Scripture say that if a person doesn't work, neither let him eat? So, how is a person going to get a reasonable job in our society unless they get some sort of qualification?

There are children of religious people who are neglected and go in rags and hungry because their parents spend so much time in voluntary church work that there is not enough money in the home to support the family, and they are so busy that they never really spend time with their children. Jesus said that anyone who does not provide for his or her family is worse than the lowest dregs of society.

So, if a person has ability in Maths, and decides to make a career out of it and becomes qualified enough to get a reasonably paid job to support his wife and family, is that serving mammon? I don't think so. He is merely following the principles that Jesus taught for ordinary people.

What Jesus disapproves of are people who make money their god, and that like religious people who go over the top with church work and activities, these ones spend all the time in business just to make money. Jesus talks about those people when he tells the story of the man who pulls down his barns to build bigger ones to store his produce, and therefore his wealth. Israel was an agricultural economy and produce was stored in barns to be sold. The more produce a farmer had, the wealthier he was. A farmer who grew enough produce just to make a normal living for himself and his family is not the one serving mammon. But the one who lives to increase wealth over and above that has a love for money and it is that love that is the root of all evil according to Scripture.
Don't argue with me, argue with this:

Matthew 6:33
33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
 
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Marcaunon

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Paul says that all things are lawful for him but not all are expedient. His sensitivity to believers with weaker consciences might be the reason for that. He is prepared not to do things that he would consider right for him if it means that another believer could be damaged by trying to copy him and then have his conscience condemn him.

We have meat Christians and milk Christians. Believers are at different stages on their growth in grace. Some are further along in their development and therefore their consciences are stronger because they know where they stand with Christ and they can say that all things are lawful for them. Less developed believers are still sensitive about certain actions, for example, drinking alcohol, eating certain foods, boy/girl relationships, etc.

The problem is that we have many believers whom I would call selfish, because they don't care about those with weaker consciences. They go off and do things which are right for them, not caring that others copy them and then fall into condemnation and discouragement because in copying they have wounded their own less developed consciences.

Those with weaker consciences are ones who would say that a certain action is wrong, when it is just wrong for them. We see this on this forum in some of the debates about what is sin and what is not. The Christlike way for me is that I would not eat food from a Hindu temple or drink alcohol in the presence of other believers if it meant that they became bold enough to copy me and then get in trouble with their consciences.

Hi Oscarr,

I'm not sure if you are indicating that my question I asked might lead those with weaker consciences astray? If so please see disclaimer 1 and 2 as put at the top of the thread and please ask an admin as appropriate.

If not I want to continue our interesting discussion by making some points.

I'm not trying to figure out what actions is and isn't sin because if you take certain definitions provided so far sin isn't even an action as such.

However perhaps the more interesting question I would like to ask in return is... are you in some way saying that sin is not the same for everyone? I don't think this is what you are saying?
 
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discipler7

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So the question is quite simply: What is sin?
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Many Christians do not understand which sin they are being saved from, ie is it their outer sins/evil-deeds or their inner/inborn Adam's Original Sin(ROMANS.5:12).?

There is a huge difference between the former sin which is voluntary, eg murder, adultery, blasphemy, stealing, lying/cheating, etc, and the latter sin which is involuntary, eg immoral lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy and baseless fears/worries, doubts, etc.
... The Lord Jesus Christ came down to earth to save "sinners" from the latter sin, ie their inherited and inner/inborn Adam's Original Sin, because "sinners" could not be without involuntary evil/sinful/satanic thoughts in their hearts and minds, try as they may = they cannot be saved from hell without Jesus = they need to be born-again of the Spirit = believing "sinners" will not be sent to hell when they die.(REVELATION.21:6-8)

Those who voluntarily commit the former outer or outward sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking will be cursed by God with a sad and short life on earth.(DEUT.28:15, 1COR.11:30, 1JOHN.5:16)

So, the worst eventuality for earthlings is to voluntarily and unrepentantly commit sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking and reject Jesus as their Christ/Messiah/Saviour, and vice versa.
... IOW, God would love all earthlings to voluntarily keep His Law, repent if they had sinned/done evil, "go and sin no more" and believe in His Son, Jesus Christ.(for Gentile Christians, they only have to keep the non-burdensome parts of Moses Law, as per ACTS.15:24-29)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
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MARK.7 = 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
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MATTHEW.23: =
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
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GALATIANS.5: =
11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

MATTHEW.5:43 = ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
 
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Lily of Valleys

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I wouldn't mind to understand a bit more how to interpret 1 John 3:4. I would think that this most likely refer to the old testament laws as given in the Torah to the Jews? Not sure if I've 100% right about this?

The how does your statement apply to the non-Jews or the people that lived before the old testament law was given?

This must obviously apply differently in the new testament as the "law" is abolished now right...
Sin is the violation of the law of God. This law is not referring specifically to the old testament laws, but the general rule of law which the conduct of mankind is to be regulated and governed, and to which it is to be conformed. This rule of law is decided by God, not us, regardless of whether or not we are aware of it.

The Greek word for sin is hamartia, which means missing the mark. God's will being that mark to be aimed at, and the law of God is the expression of what the will of God is as to what we should and should not do.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Marcaunon. What is sin? God is Love, and Jesus died for us. Everything what can be covered by that,is SIN. God is Love, we all know what is true love, and we can be either loving , or not loving. The Bible tells us: Love God with Heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. Everything NOT out of Love, is SIN. Jesus is our Saviour, and Jesus died that we might live. We must love our neighbour as we love ourselves treat everbody with love and compassion. Jesus our Saviour died that we might live. Now we have to live for God and Jesus and our neighbour. Treat all we know and all we meet, and love to be treated. Satan and his followers will run away from us, and all love. The Bible tells us: give up our selfish and unloving behaviour and start to be loving and caring, filled with forgiveness and compassion.
Sin is everything without love, God is Love, and Jesus died out of Love for us.
We are told in Matthew 7:7-10: Ask and you shall receive. We keep asking God for love and compassion, for joy and peace, then thank God and start loving and caring, be kind and helpful. God will see and notice, God will Bless us greatly, and we shall be doing God`s Will. Why not try it, Marcaunon. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ
 
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JoeP222w

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Sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

James 4:17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

1 John 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
 
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Devin P

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Hi

Disclaimer 1: If this is in the wrong sub-forum I ask that it please be moved as appropriate, it was not my intention to cause anyone distress.

Disclaimer 2: Regardless of how you view this question the intent is not to cause duress but rather it's intent is merely for me to find some clearer answers to things I was wondering about (1 Pet 3:15)

Disclaimer 3: English is my second language.

So the question is quite simply: What is sin?

But some clarification perhaps is necessary.
It would be nice if the answer made sense in the biblical context, firstly new testament but hopefully in regards to all.

Let me expand a little bit more on this...

Perhaps you would argue that sin is not doing God's will. If this is so then how does one know what God's will or God's command is? Was this the same for all people in history?

Perhaps sin is simply what we earn upon birth as humans? Then why so much bothering in the bible with regards to what actions we take especially in the old testament prophets? Why give the 10 commandments therefore? Does this then mean we are all sinners regardless of what we did or will do, in effect rendering all actions by man irrelevant accept for this original sin?

Perhaps you would argue that sin in the most general terms is simply being immoral? I would be interested in how you argue this from the bible and not purely with philosophy. Also how can we ever really know what is moral then?

Another option I can think of is that sin is in your heart disbelieving or simply rebelling against God. Firstly does this mean God condemns the human for something as simple as a thought crime? Which in reality one might not even know he is committing?

Perhaps I'm way off base and sin is explained completely differently?

There are many following up ideas on this but I feel is a good place for me to start and try to understand my faith/religion better.

Thank you for your time in trying to answer my mad ravings. (I am not a theologian, just a person trying to understand things with more clarity)

Well, as it's been shown on here before, sin according to 1 John 3:4 is really simply - the breaking of His laws and commands.

So, if we work on the 7th day (saturday) it's sin. If we eat pork, it's sin. If we have sex with a married woman, it's sin. If we steal, it's sin.

All you have to do to understand what sin is, is read the first five books of the bible all the way through, because the entire bible hinges on those first five books. It was the bible of the people. Then, at the time of the NT, the whole Old Testament was their only source of scripture.

People today (out of tradition) have tried to say that you don't need to observe the law, but it doesn't really make much sense. Jesus said that He didn't come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. He did. He is God, and He was married to Israel, but divorced them. In the first five books of the bible, God explains one of His laws about adultery. In short - a man cannot put away his bride unless she's been found in adultery. In doing this, God says that he isn't to divorce her so that she can remarry. She's to be put away, and cursed for all of the rest of either her days, or until her husband marries. However, Jesus points out that eventually Moses made it so the women can remarry, because of the hardening of their hearts. But originally, the woman was to be cursed. That is God's will, that she is cursed for committing adultery.

This is what happened to Israel, the bride of God that was repeatedly found in adultery. He put her away, and she was cursed. Either until she died, or until God died. Which, He did. He came to die on the cross. He fulfilled the law, freeing us from the curse of being a bride put away, so that we can once again remarry.

If we look at it from the perspective that He didn't do away with the law, but to fulfill in the sense the modern church does. Doing away with the law and fulfill mean exactly the same thing. So Jesus is saying I did not come to do away with the law, but to do away with it. This isn't so.

In John 3:19-21
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We see that the reason people don't come into truth, is because their deeds (what they are doing) is evil. We see that they don't want to come into the light, because they would have to change how they do things. They would have to do the works of God, and not of their wicked ways. The modern church preaches that all we need to do is pray a prayer, and that's it. Be more loving, and you're good. Keep going about your old ways, even though there's several prophecies about the end of times, and how people will be condemned for eating pork - in the end days. If the levitical law regarding food is done away with, why would people be getting condemned for eating pork in the future? Not only that, but why would we the saints be using the law that is done away with to judge the world with? Why are we to be using the law that was done away with to rule and reign with our Savior after He returns? It makes no sense.

Sin, is the transgression of the law. To understand what the law is, read the first five books.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Sin -- any action or thought that goes against God's will for us.

Sins -- many called out in the Bible and should be taken very seriously.

If one is Born Again -- several times each day the Holy Spirit will point out our sin. Repentance of these sins (may) save us from a Fatherly whipping.

Blessing sent out to all for the Sanctification process can be a tough one.

M-Bob
 
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discipler7

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Sin is the violation of the law of God. This law is not referring specifically to the old testament laws, but the general rule of law which the conduct of mankind is to be regulated and governed, and to which it is to be conformed. This rule of law is decided by God, not us, regardless of whether or not we are aware of it.
The Greek word for sin is hamartia, which means missing the mark.
You are "missing the mark" about God's Law or are not quite right.

ROMANS.7: = 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

ROMANS.6: = 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

There is God's Law or Moses Law and there is Roman Law, US Law, English Law, Sharia Law, etc.

Christians are to “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” (MATTHEW.22:21) Caesar can mean the government of the day.
... IOW, US Christians are to obey US Law unless US Law jeopardizes their salvation, eg when the US government enacts a penal law to require every citizen to receive the "mark of the beast"(computer chip implants.?). So, US Christians should pay taxes to their government/Caesar and tithe(= about 2%) to God. US Christians, eg business-persons, should not discriminate against homosexuals or other LGBTQs, as per US Law(let God deal with them).

As per ACTS.15:24-29, Gentile Christians are required by God to only keep the non-burdensome parts of Moses Law, especially laws on morality, eg the Ten Commandments(EXODUS.20).
... In comparison, Jewish Christians have to keep as many laws of Moses as possible.
In this way, both will be blessed by God on earth and in the hereafter(= saved from hell when they die).
.
.
P S - During the time of Jesus Christ, under Roman Law, adultery, homosexuality/sodomy, incest, prostitution, idolatry and blasphemy were not crimes, but were sins/crimes under Moses Law.
... Today, under US Law, similarly, adultery, homosexuality/sodomy, idolatry and blasphemy are not crimes, but are still sins/crimes under God's Law.
 
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Wordkeeper

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I hope I'm getting this right. Are you saying that people should just sit on their acres on the couch and do nothing to improve themselves so they can get a better paying job to support their families, and just have government welfare as their income?

Doesn't the Scripture say that if a person doesn't work, neither let him eat? So, how is a person going to get a reasonable job in our society unless they get some sort of qualification?

There are children of religious people who are neglected and go in rags and hungry because their parents spend so much time in voluntary church work that there is not enough money in the home to support the family, and they are so busy that they never really spend time with their children. Jesus said that anyone who does not provide for his or her family is worse than the lowest dregs of society.

So, if a person has ability in Maths, and decides to make a career out of it and becomes qualified enough to get a reasonably paid job to support his wife and family, is that serving mammon? I don't think so. He is merely following the principles that Jesus taught for ordinary people.

What Jesus disapproves of are people who make money their god, and that like religious people who go over the top with church work and activities, these ones spend all the time in business just to make money. Jesus talks about those people when he tells the story of the man who pulls down his barns to build bigger ones to store his produce, and therefore his wealth. Israel was an agricultural economy and produce was stored in barns to be sold. The more produce a farmer had, the wealthier he was. A farmer who grew enough produce just to make a normal living for himself and his family is not the one serving mammon. But the one who lives to increase wealth over and above that has a love for money and it is that love that is the root of all evil according to Scripture.
When we support a view, it must be coherent, make sense, and it must be comprehensive, should apply in all situations.


Claiming that we should work for earthly treasure goes against so many teachings, but its supporters say that those who do not try to work for earthly gains are going against the teaching that looking after their family is Scripturally correct:

1 Timothy 5:8
8Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

And against the teachings that whoever does not work should not eat:

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.

I could just quote Bible verses that teach prioritising the gathering of God's children, and in fact, I did.

But it's the right thing to do to give the comprehensive explanation too, so here it is.

Let's explain what happened to those who counted the cost and received baptism.

Peter accused those who loved the world as belonging to an adulterous generation . Instead of being with God, their proper partner, they formed relationships with the world. Those who agreed with Peter were baptised, and broke of relationship with the world (they agreed that those who depended on for perishable needs even though the world was unreliable were foolish), and promised to return to God.

God gives proof of his ability and willingness to lead them into rest, proper living, being a blessing to the world, as Adam had been. In time, when enough proof had been given of God's faithfulness, God called us, to fully commit ourself to being that blessing, by manifesting His role in our lives in a highly visible way. Rahab was blessed when Joshua allowed God to use him to exhibit His power.

Was Abraham given proof of God's ability to bless? Yes. Was he afraid? Yes. Did he overcome his fear after seeing God's power? Yes. So God's power delivered Abraham out of the world into rest.

Was Moses given proof of God's power? Yes. Did he overcome his fear of risking his safety by placing it in God's hands? Yes. Did he hear God's voice? No. Did he act? Yes. Was God with him? No. Was he successful in being a blessing? No. The lesson is not to act when God is not with you or called you.

Did God call Moses later? Yes. Did Moses ask God to show Israel the same proofs he showed Moses? He did. Was Israel convinced by the proof? Yes.

Did God give Jesus proof of His power? Yes he did. Did God call Jesus out of Egypt? Yes. Did God give Jesus proofs to show Israel? Yes. Was Israel convinced to abandon the world and follow God? No they were not.

But it was not God's fault, just as it was not God's fault when Israel did not enter rest.

When people joined the disciples in Jerusalem in following God, God provided them proof of His ability and power to give them rest. However it still required them to respond, to show God they had faith in Him. Those who thought they could finish the house, had the means to complete the task, changed their lives, aligned it with what they had decided, and God then led them into rest, the ability to be blessings to the world.

The first part of the last sentence is very important.

The Bible describes what that response looks like :

The believer abandoned all dependency on the world.

The believer who did not have the confidence that he had the resources to compete the house asked for more time to repent.

The believer who was not confident of his ability to meet the challenge asked for terms of peace from the challenge, personified as a king of an opposing army.

The believer delayed whole hearted surrender to the challenge by making friends of those in the kingdom with unrighteous Mammon so that they would welcome him into eternal dwellings ( the ability to be blessings) when his worldly resources ran out.

So when the believer joined the disciples, he could lay down his resources at Peter’s feet or he could donate his regular earnings to the group.

The group used the money to support those who had fully committed their work to God.

Those who were fully committed had to do this work (manifest God's power) in order to continue to receive support. If they did not work they were not to receive support.

What happened to the family of those who were serving God in any one of the above ways? If the believer had extra resources, he had to support his family. Else the group had to do it.
 
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AlexDTX

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So the question is quite simply: What is sin?
Sin is a term in archery that means "to miss the mark", thus in its simplest expression, it is to err. However, sin is not limited to just our choices and actions. When God created the world it was good. There was no sin, or error, in its being. Freewill has the ability to function without sin, even though it also had the ability to bring in sin. When Adam did not believe God sin began to enter his heart, but when he let his wife eat the forbidden fruit, sin entered the creation through that action. Once sin entered the creation, it became what is called in physics, entropy; that is, the gradual decay of everything. Cells reproduce slightly off, thus eventually break down and die in what is called "natural death". Christ's perfect sinless life, sinless at birth and sinless by choice of actions all his life, reintroduced the good creation, and good free will that God intended. Jesus is more than our salvation, he is the salvation of all creation as the first fruits of the new creation that will remain sinless forever.
 
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Cat Loaf You

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Hi

Disclaimer 1: If this is in the wrong sub-forum I ask that it please be moved as appropriate, it was not my intention to cause anyone distress.

Disclaimer 2: Regardless of how you view this question the intent is not to cause duress but rather it's intent is merely for me to find some clearer answers to things I was wondering about (1 Pet 3:15)

Disclaimer 3: English is my second language.

So the question is quite simply: What is sin?

But some clarification perhaps is necessary.
It would be nice if the answer made sense in the biblical context, firstly new testament but hopefully in regards to all.

Let me expand a little bit more on this...

Perhaps you would argue that sin is not doing God's will. If this is so then how does one know what God's will or God's command is? Was this the same for all people in history?

Perhaps sin is simply what we earn upon birth as humans? Then why so much bothering in the bible with regards to what actions we take especially in the old testament prophets? Why give the 10 commandments therefore? Does this then mean we are all sinners regardless of what we did or will do, in effect rendering all actions by man irrelevant accept for this original sin?

Perhaps you would argue that sin in the most general terms is simply being immoral? I would be interested in how you argue this from the bible and not purely with philosophy. Also how can we ever really know what is moral then?

Another option I can think of is that sin is in your heart disbelieving or simply rebelling against God. Firstly does this mean God condemns the human for something as simple as a thought crime? Which in reality one might not even know he is committing?

Perhaps I'm way off base and sin is explained completely differently?

There are many following up ideas on this but I feel is a good place for me to start and try to understand my faith/religion better.

Thank you for your time in trying to answer my mad ravings. (I am not a theologian, just a person trying to understand things with more clarity)

Not being perfect is Sin or disobedience to God's laws .
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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A new creation in an unredeemed body.
The very plain teaching of the priesthood (in the form of males in family also) being ordained (the very meaning means that of the new creation) while proclaiming the body is still unredeemed and thereby creating hierarchy in that church that can only be applied outside of church (not once someone comes into the fold) is sin. The application of strange fire in the priesthood of which we all are members. But not according to some. Strange fire.
 
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Hi

Disclaimer 1: If this is in the wrong sub-forum I ask that it please be moved as appropriate, it was not my intention to cause anyone distress.

Disclaimer 2: Regardless of how you view this question the intent is not to cause duress but rather it's intent is merely for me to find some clearer answers to things I was wondering about (1 Pet 3:15)

Disclaimer 3: English is my second language.

So the question is quite simply: What is sin?

But some clarification perhaps is necessary.
It would be nice if the answer made sense in the biblical context, firstly new testament but hopefully in regards to all.

Let me expand a little bit more on this...

Perhaps you would argue that sin is not doing God's will. If this is so then how does one know what God's will or God's command is? Was this the same for all people in history?

Perhaps sin is simply what we earn upon birth as humans? Then why so much bothering in the bible with regards to what actions we take especially in the old testament prophets? Why give the 10 commandments therefore? Does this then mean we are all sinners regardless of what we did or will do, in effect rendering all actions by man irrelevant accept for this original sin?

Perhaps you would argue that sin in the most general terms is simply being immoral? I would be interested in how you argue this from the bible and not purely with philosophy. Also how can we ever really know what is moral then?

Another option I can think of is that sin is in your heart disbelieving or simply rebelling against God. Firstly does this mean God condemns the human for something as simple as a thought crime? Which in reality one might not even know he is committing?

Perhaps I'm way off base and sin is explained completely differently?

There are many following up ideas on this but I feel is a good place for me to start and try to understand my faith/religion better.

Thank you for your time in trying to answer my mad ravings. (I am not a theologian, just a person trying to understand things with more clarity)
Sin as I experience it, is something that makes creation malfunction or sick, as a result of the fall this element of decay was added to everything. (Romans 7:17, Romans 8:20)

In general it means to miss the mark. (Romans 3:23)

It is important to note, if someone says "it is a sin" you are not supposed to feel bad immediately. A better response is to determine what the right way to go is first, then do that instead.
 
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