What is Sin?

[SandRose]

Thanks to everyone who has posted. Based on the range of responses you guys have provided, I'm getting the idea that you all have ideas in mind of what sin is, but that these ideas are hard to articulate. I don't know that my understanding of this concept is any clearer now than when I started, but I think I can at least break my confusion up into two basic areas now:

What role does God play in the existence of sin? That is to say, is he just making up these systems of condemnation and redemption at his whim, or is there something else going on, some system beyond his control?

What role do blood sacrifices play in the alleviation of sin? Do these have any function other than appeasing God (appeasing as in, he could choose to do anything he wants, but the blood sacrifices persuade him to take pity on humanity or something like that)? Or are there other mechanisms at work when it comes to blood sacrifices?

Thanks in advance for any follow-up posts that could clarify either of these questions.

 

[SandRose]

Key: I think our differing perspectives on many things in this world aren't going to be reconciled on an internet forum (one that discourages discussion, no less) and so I'm not going to reply to the points you make in your post. Please don't take this as a personal insult... if you really want to go into a further discussion / debate about homosexuality (or any other topic), feel free to PM me or point me to another board where we could continue the discussion.

For the purposes of my question about sin, however, homosexuality remains to be an inconsistency in my view... for everything else that's been given as an example of sin (from the little things like lying / working seven days a week to the big things like theft / murder / etc.) there's something you can point to and say, that is the negative consequence of this action. In the case of two people loving each other, regardless of their gender, this kind of consequentiality simply isn't there.

 

[ebia]

Thanks to everyone who has posted. Based on the range of responses you guys have provided, I'm getting the idea that you all have ideas in mind of what sin is, but that these ideas are hard to articulate. I don't know that my understanding of this concept is any clearer now than when I started, but I think I can at least break my confusion up into two basic areas now:

What role does God play in the existence of sin? That is to say, is he just making up these systems of condemnation and redemption at his whim, or is there something else going on, some system beyond his control?

God has a purpose for us (summed up in the two Great Commandments). When our choices go against that, that's sin.

Rules (biblical or otherwise) are attempts to put part of that into practice. However, no finite set of rules can possibly do that, so there will always be problems with any such set. Christ points us to moving beyond rules into trying to understand and follow God's actual will for us. However, people being what they are, we can't resist reconstructing sets of rules from even the most anti-rule texts.

What role do blood sacrifices play in the alleviation of sin?

None whatsoever. They are pointers and temporary standins for and in anticpation of Christ's incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection.

 

[dvd_holc]

What role does God play in the existence of sin? That is to say, is he just making up these systems of condemnation and redemption at his whim, or is there something else going on, some system beyond his control?

What role do blood sacrifices play in the alleviation of sin? Do these have any function other than appeasing God (appeasing as in, he could choose to do anything he wants, but the blood sacrifices persuade him to take pity on humanity or something like that)? Or are there other mechanisms at work when it comes to blood sacrifices?

Thanks in advance for any follow-up posts that could clarify either of these questions.

Sin is not beyond God's control; however, made humans to be image bearers of God and He gave authority and power to humans to be like Him. But with this authority, humans choose not to follow the rule of God; ie sinned. But God did not work out of His created order that is against what He created. Rather, God gave power over to sinful pursuits for people to achieve certain sinful goals in which He worked for His glory. Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this reason I raised you up, that my power might be known through you and my Name might be glorified to the ends of the earth."

Every sacrifice that was done during the temple service time and prior was a act of devotion or petition to God to remember God's promises. Through the covenants, God choose to began a work of restoring the world back to harmony of existence in the garden of Eden. The covenants pointed toward Christ Jesus who is the Lamb which was slaughter for redemption of mankind which was promised in one of the covenants to Abraham. In Christ, God's redemptive process is achieved. Those who live faithful to Jesus become God's covenant people who participate in the redemptive process. God wrote in the creative process, but in the redemptive process sin is being done away with; with the final act of redemption in the events of the second coming of Jesus.

 

[Key]

Thanks to everyone who has posted. Based on the range of responses you guys have provided, I'm getting the idea that you all have ideas in mind of what sin is, but that these ideas are hard to articulate. I don't know that my understanding of this concept is any clearer now than when I started, but I think I can at least break my confusion up into two basic areas now:

That happens. It is like trying to say "But what is Illegal" and then ask people to explain it.. Unless you grasp the concept of Law, there will be parts missing from each and every explanation.

What role does God play in the existence of sin? That is to say, is he just making up these systems of condemnation and redemption at his whim, or is there something else going on, some system beyond his control?

Well this is a wonderful two part question.

What role does God play. Well, God established Man (Or Created man, however you want to look at it), when God did this, God saw what man did with out law and rule, and when living by Human law, man only did what they thought was right, without knowledge of what was indeed good or bad for them in the whole or the long run. IE: If it feels Good.. it must be good.

So God set forth a Law for people to follow, and he chose the people that he would use to mark his Law on this earth, that they would by following his law, live good, healthy, long lives, free from many of the plagues that others suffered from.

Gods Law brought Health, and Freedom, and made man Proud again, if they knew God would judge them, what could they fear on earth, however, again, what could they hide from God. Thus, Man became accountable again, and by this act, became courageous, and could stand proud, as opposed to hiding behind weakness, thus, when we let sin enter and rule our lives, we loose our courage. When we submit to God, we gain our Courage, because we now stand accountable for our actions, and we know, that God in heaven sees our every action, that we can not hide our wrongs, so we face them with honor.

God established the concept of Sin, to be "Gods Law of Just and Unjust" in this case, Sin is just another way to saw "Law Breaker" but, not just any Law, it is a Breaker of Gods Law. Thus, Sinner, as opposed to some other term that a Government might use, like criminal, is used.

God, wants us to stand with Honor, and be Free, and we can not be free till we are accountable. But we can not be accountable, until we stop letting sin make us cowards.

What role do blood sacrifices play in the alleviation of sin? Do these have any function other than appeasing God (appeasing as in, he could choose to do anything he wants, but the blood sacrifices persuade him to take pity on humanity or something like that)? Or are there other mechanisms at work when it comes to blood sacrifices?

Another great Two part Question.

Blood Sacrifice served the purpose of showing us the weight of Sin. Just as I tried to explain to you the downward spiral of falling into weakness of sin, to become a coward, God put forth the blood sacrifice, so that we would know the weight of our actions, that we would pay this wage, to honor our accountability, thus, the Blood Sacrifice, not only gave us an idea of the gravity of our sin, but gave use a means to stand with honor, as we paid the price for our sins.

God did not need Blood to have "Pity" on us, then again, God never had pity on us. He had only Love for us, as he does today, to only give us love.

Gods Laws and rules were placed not for Gods desires, but for what was best for man. God has only acted in the best for man since Adam and Eve.

Now if you want a great lesson in Sin, discussion of the First one is a great place to start, if you would like, we can go in that direction.

Thanks in advance for any follow-up posts that could clarify either of these questions.

Always an Honor. I hope I have given you some insight.

Key: I think our differing perspectives on many things in this world aren't going to be reconciled on an internet forum

I do not believe that they ever could, you need to understand, I have no desire to make you think like me, or make you believe as I believe, this is my road, and where my travels have taken me. I respect and even embrace you for having a different view and outlook then my own.

Now, don't get me wrong, I would love for you to one day come to know the love of Jesus and feel his power and impact on your life, even if after doing so... you still would not agree with me.

But, then, even if you didn't, I would respect you just the same, See, it not that you should, or must agree with me, nor that you think you ever could agree with me, but, maybe, you might see things from my side of the fence, and come to respect why I think and believe as I do, even if you feel that, well.... even if you feel that it wrong... or not right for you.

I may not agree with you, and believe this or not, I have a pretty good grip on where you are coming from, many of us were not born with a cross in our mouths. and even more were not given the gift of a Message board to come to, to talk with people about God, and all truth, if we had that, we most likely would have come here with guns ah'blazing.

See, there is power in people Sandrose, and maybe, you do not believe, because, you just have not meet the right Christian yet.

Now, I am not going to entertain that I am the "Right Christian" I am just a man.. with my limited ideals, and limited knowledge, but, I am just trying to answer your question, not brain wash you to believe as I believe.

Please don't take this as a personal insult... if you really want to go into a further discussion / debate about homosexuality (or any other topic), feel free to PM me or point me to another board where we could continue the discussion.

Well, I am not one to just go and stir up a debate unless I really have to, but if you want to take our discussion to a private level, maybe, learn more, and hopefully maybe we may come to grasp each other better, and even develop respect, then that would be great. But I have no desire to debate you, but only offer you respect, and if I can show it on a message board, maybe love.

For the purposes of my question about sin, however, homosexuality remains to be an inconsistency in my view

Your not alone, and I can respect this issue of trying to get your mind around that.

If you want to discuss it, in a respectful and hopefully edifying way, I will try to find us a form to discuss it, but, I have no desire to debate it with you, only maybe, for us to share our feelings, and maybe see things and grow in understanding.

God Bless

Key.

 

[Zeena]

See, there is power in people Sandrose, and maybe, you do not believe, because, you just have not meet the right Christian yet.

God Bless

Key.

What does this mean Key?
Will you please elaborate?

John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

 

[Merlin]

Simply put,
Sin is a violation of the Law which God gave to Moses.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

Thanks to everyone who has posted. Based on the range of responses you guys have provided, I'm getting the idea that you all have ideas in mind of what sin is, but that these ideas are hard to articulate. I don't know that my understanding of this concept is any clearer now than when I started, but I think I can at least break my confusion up into two basic areas now:

What role does God play in the existence of sin? That is to say, is he just making up these systems of condemnation and redemption at his whim, or is there something else going on, some system beyond his control?

What role do blood sacrifices play in the alleviation of sin? Do these have any function other than appeasing God (appeasing as in, he could choose to do anything he wants, but the blood sacrifices persuade him to take pity on humanity or something like that)? Or are there other mechanisms at work when it comes to blood sacrifices?

Thanks in advance for any follow-up posts that could clarify either of these questions.

What role does God play in the existense of sin? Great question.
- One could argue that without God there would be no sin because without God there would be no creation and, therefore, no universe.
- One can also argue that since God created Adam, Eve, and the serpent and since God allowed the serpent to tempt Eve from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and since Eve then Adam ate from it, that God played the key role in the existense of Sin for allowing this series of events to happen.
- One can also argue that since we believe that God is perfect and man is imperfect, sin is the explanation of that gap between man and God.

Personally, I lean toward the third option. I have no doubt there are many other options but that is all I can come up with right now.

It is my understanding blood sacrifices were a way to appease God as shown throughout Leviticus. By appeasing God, the sin was forgiven i.e., the sin never happened.

If you want to pursue the concept of sin further, there is an excellent discussion at a website I have found to be as unbiased as any. Here is the link:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sin.htm

OldChurchGuy

 

[Zeena]

EXCELLENT post!

And I'm checkin the site as we speak!

 

[Key]

What does this mean Key?
Will you please elaborate?

I would be honored to and I am sure Sandrose would want an explanation as well.

Each Christian has a special way about them, the way we talk, type, speak, act, etc. We may all preach Christ Crucified, but we each approach it differently because we are each unique followers, and apply our own lives to our message. Where some might see the truth in your message, because of the way you say things, and how you say them, others would see some truth in mine because of the same thing. The very foundation that we each have a different path in life, and as such, our coming to God and Christ, came about in a different way.

As such, when we try to talk about God and Christ to people, we bring him home to our heart, and speak from there to those that will listen. Now Sandrose might see my message, and because of my words, or the way I act, or what have you, she does not feel drawn to Christ, as such, I am not the "right" Christian to lead her to God.

Where, another may touch her heart in a way, with their words, or actions, or what have you, and that will open the door for her to come to Christ.

Our message is the same, Christ. However, how we go about talking and explaining it, is what adds our own human level to the message we speak from our heart, and maybe my "Level" is not on par to SandRose, but yours may be, as such, despite that we preach the same gospel, your message touches home, that is all I was talking about when I said the "right" Christian, maybe a more correct application would have been, you have not received the right messenger.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sin.htm

Hummmm... I have a lot of reserves about this site, I have read some very questionable things from them, make sure you check their claims, and test them against biblical scripture.

God Bless

Key.

 

[SandRose]

Key: Thanks once again for taking the time to answer my questions. Regarding further discussion / debate between us, I think we both understand that we have different opinions on certain things, and that neither of us is very interested in forcing the other to change their mind. I like the idea that we can respectfully disagree without feeling the need to continue ripping at the issue, trying to convince each other that the other is wrong.

You bring up some interesting thoughts on people and the influences that different individuals can have on one another's beliefs. Throughout my life, I've known people of varying faiths... in addition to Christianity, people who were devout believers in Islam or shamanism. They were always willing to introduce me to their faith, patiently and respectfully educating me as to what they believe and how their religion is unique... always (I think) with the idle hope that I might eventually come to believe the way they did. But the reason I'm not a muslim or a shaman today is because I came to the realization that I couldn't allow others to have that kind of influence on my own beliefs. If I accepted the religion of someone close to me, someone who I respected... would it be because I truly believed it, or because deep down I wanted their acceptance and admiration? For me the only path that I thought had any chance of providing me with real answers was to cast off on my own, closely examining the religious claims of others as well as naturalistic perspectives on the world, and deciding for myself what was what. That process has led me to where I am today -- just as I'm sure it has led others to completely different places.

Now if you want a great lesson in Sin, discussion of the First one is a great place to start, if you would like, we can go in that direction.

This sounds like something that would be very relevant to this thread and the questions at hand -- I'd be interested in hearing more about it, if you don't mind.

OldChurchGuy: Thanks for the link -- I haven't fully examined it yet, but it looks like a lot of information there on this topic. And to the others that have posted in this thread, I hope I'm not giving the impression that I'm skipping over or ignoring your responses by not addressing them individually -- I appreciate everyone's taking the time to reply and share their thoughts on my questions.

 

[Key]

That process has led me to where I am today --

That is great... I pray that it is not stagnant.. however.. and that your "process" is far from complete...

This sounds like something that would be very relevant to this thread and the questions at hand -- I'd be interested in hearing more about it, if you don't mind.

What do you know of the story of Adam and Eve? I would like to start off by seeing what you know, and your view on this. Because I do not know what you believe, so I do not want to make assumptions that you know something, or don't know something, or that you may see it one way.. or another...

God Bless

Key

 

[SandRose]

That is great... I pray that it is not stagnant.. however.. and that your "process" is far from complete...

I that think to some extent, the process continues for all of us... After all, we're here talking to one another, aren't we?

What do you know of the story of Adam and Eve? I would like to start off by seeing what you know, and your view on this. Because I do not know what you believe, so I do not want to make assumptions that you know something, or don't know something, or that you may see it one way.. or another...

I know the basic events of the story as told in Genesis... the interpretations, however, seem to vary depending on who you talk to. But don't worry about my beliefs or assumptions regarding the story... I'd be more interested in hearing your perspective on it and its relation to the original questions about sin.

 

[SandRose]

Also, I feel like I should quickly mention this for anyone who may be wondering... I hope I haven't been giving anyone the wrong impressions about my motives for coming here and asking these questions. I'm not trying to become a Christian or find a reason to share your faith, but rather to better understand your religion and the concepts contained within it. There are many atheists out there who seem to have a very shallow understanding of what Christianity is all about, and I'm hoping that my researches (partly in the form of these threads) can help me gain a richer perspective on where you guys are coming from, your individual experiences and understandings of your religion, etc.

 

[Key]

Also, I feel like I should quickly mention this for anyone who may be wondering... I hope I haven't been giving anyone the wrong impressions about my motives for coming here and asking these questions. I'm not trying to become a Christian or find a reason to share your faith, but rather to better understand your religion and the concepts contained within it. There are many atheists out there who seem to have a very shallow understanding of what Christianity is all about, and I'm hoping that my researches (partly in the form of these threads) can help me gain a richer perspective on where you guys are coming from, your individual experiences and understandings of your religion, etc.

I think at this point, I should also tell you that your search might end with you finally grasping the whole thing, and then becoming one of us.

P.S. I still want to hear... YOUR interpretation of the events.

God Bless

 

[SandRose]

I think at this point, I should also tell you that your search might end with you finally grasping the whole thing, and then becoming one of us.

I suppose anything is possible... but please don't get your hopes up. Remember, I'm not coming here to antagonize you guys, or attack your faith, or try to get you to think like I do. Since I'm not expecting that my posts will cause anyone here to become an atheist, I'd appreciate it if others would similarly recognize that theirs won't cause me to become a Christian.

P.S. I still want to hear... YOUR interpretation of the events.

Ok... I'll try to sum it up as I understand it.

God creates two people and allows them to live in a paradise called the garden of Eden. There's a special tree in this garden, and eating its fruit gives you knowledge of good and evil. God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, but the serpent tempts Eve and she and Adam eat it anyway. They gain the knowledge but realize they're naked. Then God comes along and finds out they ate the fruit and curses them. In terms of the question of Sin, this is apparently the first time humans went against God's wishes.

I hope that's sufficient... If you have any more particular questions of me I'd be happy to try to answer, but I'm not really sure what you're looking for here.

 

[Key]

To start off, you need to Grasp the Nature of Gods Laws and Sin.

Many people make the mistake of thinking that it's all the same thing, or that they are all one dimensional. This is not true.

Gods Laws fall under Two Major Groups, and Four Sub Groups. But all of them Fall under the Umbrella of "Gods Laws"

The Two Major Groups:

Social

Wellness.

The Social Category has two Sub Groups-

Moral/Immoral

Honor/Shame

Now Moral/Immoral is a simple one for most people, is the group we all relate to, doing something wrong. Sums it up nicely. Rules by which a community should abide by for safe and peacful living. IE: Not Killing Each other.

The Honor/Shame is a bit tougher for most Americans to grasp because of our individualistc mentaliry, if we were born in Japan, or the middle east, it would be much easier to comperhend it. The best way I can translate it, is into Respect/Disrespect. This is simple enough, these are rules we should follow to allow for order and graceful coexistence beyond simple not killing each other.

The Wellness Category has two Sub Groups-

Physical Health - Diet

Clean/Unclean

Physical Health and Diet are very well known, but given little attention, most notably in the kosher diet plan. But also rules like rest one day a week are equally included. These rules are in place for our overall physical and mental health.

Clean/Unclean is straightforward, what we should do to maintain body health to avoid external infections, etc. This allows us to live in communities that can maintain healthily living conditions. For example, we need to clean ourselves in running water if we have touched a dead body (Animal or Human).

When we approach the Story of Adam and Eve, we are dealing with mostly the Moral/Immoral aspects of the Sin nature, but we see also the Respect/Disrespect part.

Now the Place is Eden. A Garden made by God, for Adam and Eve to enjoy the labors of Gods work.

[bible]Genesis 2:8-9[/bible]

In this Garden is the Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge. The only tree that Adam and Eve can not eat of, is the Tree of Knowledge. God, makes this clear as he can, "Eat that fruit from that tree and you will die" this is about as straight froward as you can get. "Eat this and Die"

[bible]Genesis 2:15-17[/bible]

Any Questions So far? or Points you would like to make?

God Bless

Key

 

[Key]

I suppose anything is possible... but please don't get your hopes up. Remember, I'm not coming here to antagonize you guys, or attack your faith, or try to get you to think like I do. Since I'm not expecting that my posts will cause anyone here to become an atheist, I'd appreciate it if others would similarly recognize that theirs won't cause me to become a Christian.

Not trying to make you a Christian, or "cause you to become one" only trying to provide you what you are looking for, Just saying, maybe once you figure the whole thing out, as best we can explain it, you might find that it is the right path for you, you might not. Only time and you can tell.

But, if it makes you feel at ease, I am not going to make any attempt to convert you, I offered and gave you my respect knowing that you were an atheist when you showed up, and it will remain no matter what you continue to believe.

God Bless

Key

 

[SandRose]

Any Questions So far? or Points you would like to make?

So far I think my biggest confusion is about the Honor/Shame thing... maybe we could start by defining these things and explaining what they are and how they work. Also, the four areas of sin (for me) raises the question of what Sin necessarily has to do with right and wrong, since only one of the four categories has anything to do with morality.

But, if it makes you feel at ease, I am not going to make any attempt to convert you, I offered and gave you my respect knowing that you were an atheist when you showed up, and it will remain no matter what you continue to believe.

Thanks Key, and I hope I can return that same respect to you as well.

 

[Key]

So far I think my biggest confusion is about the Honor/Shame thing... maybe we could start by defining these things and explaining what they are and how they work. Also, the four areas of sin (for me) raises the question of what Sin necessarily has to do with right and wrong, since only one of the four categories has anything to do with morality.

Great Question.

Two of the Categories have to deal with Social Interaction of People and communities. This is a very important aspect of understanding Sin and how it affects our lives.

It is not just Moral, but Physical, Mental, and Cultural.

See, each "Sin" deals with the degrading of one of those aspects. If you commit a Physical Sin, then you hurt your own body, if you commit cultural sins, you hurt the order within society.

Honor/Shame is a power aspect of our Culture, or it was at one time, and still is in many countries, in some cases, it carries with it, more weight then simple "Moral" aspects, because, it deals with the Culture as a Whole, as opposed to just a singular action.

For example, You respect your mother, and there are things that your mother expects from you, to show that respect,

IE: Listen to Her. Obey her Wishes. Etc.

Just you expect a level of Respect.

IE: You want her to respect your privacy, your ability to make choices, etc.

In some cases, you might view the imposition or removal of that line of respect as a greater insult in your "Home" culture, then if your mother told a lie, or stole some food, or even shot someone.

Thus, when we fully grasp the nature of the Honor/Shame aspect of Sin, we see that it holds a great amount of weight in our lives.

Tell me if this is making sense to you so far?

God Bless

Key.