What is Sin?

[SandRose]

Firstly, I want to check my understanding of the Christian definition of sin... I'm under the impression that it's something like, "transgression against God," and that it has nothing to do with whether or not an act is harmful to another human being. (This is based on the observation that God has often done things, or required others to do things, that hurt people, but are righteous in his eyes.) I'm also under the impression that sin somehow exists independently of individuals' actions, if an infant could be said to be sinful before it is old enough to really do anything yet. (But feel free to expand on this paragraph if need be.)

Anyway, here's what I'm wondering: what really is the nature of sin? How does it work? Is it supposed to be tangible in some form, or is it meant to be taken as a metaphor? Is there any way that we as mortal beings can detect its existence or negation? In particular, I'm wondering about sin both in the sense of "original sin" and in the phrase, "Jesus died for our sins" -- if someone could explain how sin operates in both of these contexts, I'd appreciate it.

Sorry for the number of questions, but since they're all centered around the same basic topic I'm hoping it won't be a problem. Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[Key]

Firstly, I want to check my understanding of the Christian definition of sin... I'm under the impression that it's something like, "transgression against God," and that it has nothing to do with whether or not an act is harmful to another human being. (This is based on the observation that God has often done things, or required others to do things, that hurt people, but are righteous in his eyes.)

This is not true. Sin is both Harmful to Self, and others around you, Hence why God says we should not do it.

However, a Personal Directive from God to do something(Like God said to Samson), places the actions as the Will of God, and thus, the first Commandment is to place God Above all things. If we hold God first in all things, then God is beyond all matters, and doing Gods will overwrites all other matters.

I need to put this in example formate for it to make sense:

The law is clear, Murder is wrong. However, there is an allowance for Officers of the Law to kill people, and not be charged with murder, because they were doing their duty.

In the Case of Sin, if God has given you a personal directive (Like Moses), then you become an officer in Gods "Police Force" and as such, are given an allowance to do what you need to do to carry out your duty.

I hope I have explained that.

I'm also under the impression that sin somehow exists independently of individuals' actions, if an infant could be said to be sinful before it is old enough to really do anything yet. (But feel free to expand on this paragraph if need be.)

No

God may make allowance for some people, even young children because they do not comprehend their own actions, this does not mean that they have not commit sin, it means that God may offer forgiveness for that sin, because they did not have intention or understanding of what they were doing.

But the Sin was still committed by the action.

Just as all Christians are sinners, we are just forgiven. That is the nature of Sin, it does not "Not Happen" it can only be forgiven once committed.

Anyway, here's what I'm wondering: what really is the nature of sin?

Sin is to place filth upon yourself to the Eyes of God.

It is harm to self, and others.

How does it work?

When you commit a sin, you have marred your own soul with it's filth, and affected all those around you with your sin.

Is it supposed to be tangible in some form, or is it meant to be taken as a metaphor?

The effects of sin are quite tangible.

IE: If you murder someone, that is a very tangible affect.

If you lie, people loose trust in you, if you steal, etc. On down the list.

There is no one sin that is Good for you to commit.

Is there any way that we as mortal beings can detect its existence or negation? In particular, I'm wondering about sin both in the sense of "original sin" and in the phrase, "Jesus died for our sins" -- if someone could explain how sin operates in both of these contexts, I'd appreciate it.

I do not subscribe to the Original Sin idea, as I have enough sins of my own that needed taking care of, that Original Sin had no impact on my life.

I am not sure what you mean by "Detect it's existence", can you expound on that for me.

Sorry for the number of questions, but since they're all centered around the same basic topic I'm hoping it won't be a problem. Thanks in advance for your responses.

It's always a pleasure to help a seeker, and provide an answer.

I hope that I have provided you such

God Bless

Key

 

[OldChurchGuy]

Firstly, I want to check my understanding of the Christian definition of sin... I'm under the impression that it's something like, "transgression against God," and that it has nothing to do with whether or not an act is harmful to another human being. (This is based on the observation that God has often done things, or required others to do things, that hurt people, but are righteous in his eyes.) I'm also under the impression that sin somehow exists independently of individuals' actions, if an infant could be said to be sinful before it is old enough to really do anything yet. (But feel free to expand on this paragraph if need be.)

Anyway, here's what I'm wondering: what really is the nature of sin? How does it work? Is it supposed to be tangible in some form, or is it meant to be taken as a metaphor? Is there any way that we as mortal beings can detect its existence or negation? In particular, I'm wondering about sin both in the sense of "original sin" and in the phrase, "Jesus died for our sins" -- if someone could explain how sin operates in both of these contexts, I'd appreciate it.

Sorry for the number of questions, but since they're all centered around the same basic topic I'm hoping it won't be a problem. Thanks in advance for your responses.

It is my understanding the word "sin" is an archer's term which means "missing the mark" or "missing the bullseye". To the best of my knowledge that is the Christian definition of sin.

Thus, to "sin" (from my viewpoint anyway) is to miss the mark as one strives to be doing what they understand God wants of them.

"Original sin" would then mean that no matter how hard we try to consistently hit the mark or bullseye, we are not perfect therefore, we sin. This has happened to all mortals from the beginning of time.

"Jesus died for our sins" would mean that we are no longer bound by the effort of consistently trying to hit the mark or bullseye. Rather, we now have the gift of grace extended to each of us. I understand this gift to mean we should continue striving to hit the mark or bullseye, but rather than have our sins held against us upon death, grace will replace the "negative scores" and we will be with God in heaven.

Anyway, that is how I understand the word "sin" and how it applies to your excellent questions.

Thanks for the opportunity to try and express a very difficult subject.

OldChurchGuy

 

[dvd_holc]

Sin is a relational; that is that it is manifest in relationships between God, communially, and enviromentally. Sin can be broken up into three things: lust or desires of flesh, lust or desires of the eyes, and pride or pretenses of life. Each of these are rooted in selfish pursuits no matter how some might seek to justify them. The resulting effect of sin is brokenness in relationships through misuse of our God given authority. We inherit sin because we are born into a collect result of previous sins. A baby will react selfishly, and this is a reaction to the child's enviroment and responding sense that the child does not know how to react properly yet. It is the parent's job to teach a child how to live properly, but parent get it wrong also.

Jesus' death is not a oddity in the universe. Jesus' death for our sins was intended to restore our relationship and bring us life. When we eat we take something that lives and cut it off of its life source to restore our lives. However, Jesus was not here to force into submission. Jesus was here for repentance that we might choose to follow God and learn to live in harmony with the way God created us to be.

 

[SandRose]

Thanks once again for your thoughtful responses, Key.

This is not true. Sin is both Harmful to Self, and others around you, Hence why God says we should not do it.

However, a Personal Directive from God to do something(Like God said to Samson), places the actions as the Will of God, and thus, the first Commandment is to place God Above all things. If we hold God first in all things, then God is beyond all matters, and doing Gods will overwrites all other matters.

I need to put this in example formate for it to make sense:

The law is clear, Murder is wrong. However, there is an allowance for Officers of the Law to kill people, and not be charged with murder, because they were doing their duty.

In the Case of Sin, if God has given you a personal directive (Like Moses), then you become an officer in Gods "Police Force" and as such, are given an allowance to do what you need to do to carry out your duty.

I hope I have explained that.

I thought the "transgression against God" definition would work best also because of things like homosexuality, which hurt no one but are seen as negative in God's eyes. (Perhaps I should have tried to explain that more, but I understand that my cursory definition-paragraph is far from complete, so thanks for expanding it.)

Also, could you elaborate a bit on this idea of people having an allowance to commit sin?

No

God may make allowance for some people, even young children because they do not comprehend their own actions, this does not mean that they have not commit sin, it means that God may offer forgiveness for that sin, because they did not have intention or understanding of what they were doing.

But the Sin was still committed by the action.

Just as all Christians are sinners, we are just forgiven. That is the nature of Sin, it does not "Not Happen" it can only be forgiven once committed.

I think this is where I start to have a big problem in understanding what sin is... to me, the word "sin" would only be apt to describe an incredibly immoral intentional act -- murder, genocide, torture, etc. But I understand that this doesn't necessarily match the Christian definition.

To give us an example to work with, I have a four-year-old cousin who I'm fairly sure has never done anything that I would consider a sin. But I'm wondering what you mean by saying that even young children commit sins? What would an example be?

The effects of sin are quite tangible.

IE: If you murder someone, that is a very tangible affect.

If you lie, people loose trust in you, if you steal, etc. On down the list.

There is no one sin that is Good for you to commit.

I think we're back to talking about things that I understand to be "sin" even in a secular definition (murder etc.), and it's quite clear to me that these things have tangible effects. What I'm wondering is, what is tangible about the sin that everyone (my four-year-old cousin for example) is said to have?

I do not subscribe to the Original Sin idea, as I have enough sins of my own that needed taking care of, that Original Sin had no impact on my life.

I am not sure what you mean by "Detect it's existence", can you expound on that for me.

I guess I mean, how do we know that Sin actually exists? When somebody says "we're all sinners," how do they measure that? Or when they say "Jesus died for our sins," how do they know that his death had any effect on Sin?

Sorry for so many follow-up questions, but thanks again for taking the time to post.

 

[SandRose]

OldChurchGuy: Thanks for adding your point of view to this thread. If I understand your post, you're saying that Sin is something that exists only in God's eyes -- sort of like a scorecard of our actions? Like Sin is more of a metaphorical thing referring to how God judges us, how he adjusts the criteria for holding people accountable for their actions, etc. If this is so, I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit on what actually happened regarding Sin during the crucifixion?

dvd_holc: You seem to be defining sin as selfishness... would this be an accurate summary of your post? And if so, is this to say that sin isn't tangible in any way? Also, you said

Jesus' death for our sins was intended to restore our relationship and bring us life.

Intended by whom? What actually happened regarding sin during the crucifixion?

 

[calidog]

G266
ἁμαρτία
hamartia
Thayer Definition:
1) equivalent to 264
1a) to be without a share in
1b) to miss the mark
1c) to err, be mistaken
1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong
1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G264
Citing in TDNT: 1:267, 44

 

[calidog]

The book of Romans is a lengthly discussion on sin.

 

[Key]

Thanks once again for your thoughtful responses, Key.

Always a pleasure, I enjoy your return for more insight as well.

I thought the "transgression against God" definition would work best also because of things like homosexuality, which hurt no one but are seen as negative in God's eyes. (Perhaps I should have tried to explain that more, but I understand that my cursory definition-paragraph is far from complete, so thanks for expanding it.)

Well as for Homosexuality, here is a response to help you think about it.

When God crafted Human, he made them a pair, A Man, and a Woman. Each one of them, a Special aspect of what is Humanity. Each one complements the other, as such, combined, they become whole, they together, become Humanity.

However, when a Man and Man join together, they become only half of the equation, they treat a man as a man, and a man as a woman. Thus they do not respect the man as a man when they treat the man as a woman.

Each one, a Man, and Woman, should be given proper respect for what they are, this is the nature of Human, to know that we as an individual, are not the all, and that a Man, is one aspect of ourselves, and a Woman is the other. Just as you are the combination of your Mother and your Father, they together, made you, and if you do not give respect to each of them, as they deserve, then you shame them.

A Woman, is an equal to a man, but her equal nature is based on the fact that she is different then a man. A Man is equal to a woman, but this also is based on the fact that a man is different then a woman.

When we do not respect that, we shame both and man and the woman.

When a Man treats a Man as a Woman, he brings shame to the Woman and the Man, because he does not respect them, and their special nature.

I hope I have explained that for you.

As for Transgression Against God. Sin is a Law for us to live By, to Allow us to be Free from many (If not all) of our own problems.

Also, could you elaborate a bit on this idea of people having an allowance to commit sin?

They have a duty to Serve God. This is not an allowance to Commit Sin.

If in preforming that duty, they need to commit a sin, then this is what they need to do, not what they are allowed to do.

See, when a person is given a Directive from God, their freewill, or freedom is removed in a sense. They will do Gods will, not their own will. In this case, it is not an Allowance to Commit sin, but a Requirement to do as they have been Commanded to Do.

IE: If God told Moses to lead his people in the desert, this is not an allowance to Moses to have sex with anyone he wants. He had a Job to do, a Duty that he will preform.

I think this is where I start to have a big problem in understanding what sin is... to me, the word "sin" would only be apt to describe an incredibly immoral intentional act -- murder, genocide, torture, etc. But I understand that this doesn't necessarily match the Christian definition.

There is no requirement of "Incredibly" on the nature of Sin. Sin affects our lives and our future generations.

Lets say for example, you work 7 days a week, without rest, no big deal right, then your children who have been denied Gods rest on the seventh day will equally work 7 days every week, this they burn out faster, they get stressed, and irritable, and then we get short, a mean, self adsorbed because we are over worked, and problems compound.

Just because... you do not take a day to rest....

Odd how that works.

To give us an example to work with, I have a four-year-old cousin who I'm fairly sure has never done anything that I would consider a sin. But I'm wondering what you mean by saying that even young children commit sins? What would an example be?

That child will lie to you to get out of trouble. Now that might not be such a big deal, but think about this, that child just lied to you about that. And if they lie to you, then they will lie to others, and they get into the habit of lying. This, might not seem so bad, but, if they lie to you about that, what else have they lied to you about, and where can you trust them to tell the truth, can you depend on their words as truth?

That is the progressive nature of Sin.

However, it might not be a world shattering event that a 4 year old told a lie to avoid getting punished, what should be a world shattering event, is that we do not see a problem with it.

Would it not be better to teach this child to stand up for their actions, both good and bad?

But see how Sin has affected you, and your outlook, you will just surround yourself with it, until it blinds you, only the most intense, and personally affecting of them will hold any weight, but if there is enough sin, even those.... will go away....

How many people are killed in the USA every year?

16,692 in 2005. Now, that is Murdered, not people that may have been killed in self defense, or by officers of the law, or thought judicial process (Capital Punishment)

16,692 people were Murdered.... in 2005 alone....

That is the affect of Sin....

I think we're back to talking about things that I understand to be "sin" even in a secular definition (murder etc.), and it's quite clear to me that these things have tangible effects. What I'm wondering is, what is tangible about the sin that everyone (my four-year-old cousin for example) is said to have?

Problems. a Negative impact on our life.

There is no Sin that is good for you.

I guess I mean, how do we know that Sin actually exists?

Watch the News.

See how we decay. Violence begets Violence, Hate to Hate, Sin to Sin.

When somebody says "we're all sinners," how do they measure that? Or when they say "Jesus died for our sins," how do they know that his death had any effect on Sin?

Jesus gave himself so that any who might come to him shall have a path to Heaven.

Have you ever done anything, that you know to have been wrong, have you ever done anything that left you in the power of another? (IE: I hope they don't find out the truth), have you done something that gave others power over you, or have you done things to lash out at those around you to get power over them.

Those are Sin.

They stem from our weakness, where we will in our weakness give others power over us, or we will in our weakness need to lash out at others to overcome them, to make ourselves feel powerful.

Sin.... kills our ability to Love ourselves... for who and what we are,.....it kills our freedom.. it destroys our grasp on what is meaningful in our lives.

But the worse that Sin does... is it makes us cowards....

Better to stand strong.. tell the truth.. and face what comes of it.. then to cower behind a lie.. and give those that know the truth power over you.

And that loss of our Courage.. is what causes all other sins... that destruction of our freedom...

Sorry for so many follow-up questions, but thanks again for taking the time to post.

Don't be sorry.. I am happy you are asking follow up questions...

I hope I have explained this to you....

God Bless

Key.

 

[Zeena]

Firstly, I want to check my understanding of the Christian definition of sin... I'm under the impression that it's something like, "transgression against God," and that it has nothing to do with whether or not an act is harmful to another human being. (This is based on the observation that God has often done things, or required others to do things, that hurt people, but are righteous in his eyes.) I'm also under the impression that sin somehow exists independently of individuals' actions, if an infant could be said to be sinful before it is old enough to really do anything yet. (But feel free to expand on this paragraph if need be.)

Sin is looking away from God.

Anyway, here's what I'm wondering: what really is the nature of sin? How does it work?

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Is it supposed to be tangible in some form, or is it meant to be taken as a metaphor?

Oh, it's quite tangilble..

God's puts his finger on it, and presses.

Is there any way that we as mortal beings can detect its existence or negation?

You die don't you?

You're not created for death, and yet you die..

In particular, I'm wondering about sin both in the sense of "original sin" and in the phrase, "Jesus died for our sins" -- if someone could explain how sin operates in both of these contexts, I'd appreciate it.

We were destined for the grave! He died in our place!

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[SandRose]

calidog: Thanks for copying & pasting a list of definitions for me, but you really didn't answer any of my questions. (If you read my first post, I think they're asking for a bit more insight and such.) Also, I've read Romans, and there didn't seem to be much in there about sin other than the same stuff I keep hearing people repeating. Assuming you understand it better than I do, could you be so kind as to sum it up for me in a way that would answer my questions? Thanks.

 

[SandRose]

Well as for Homosexuality, here is a response to help you think about it.

When God crafted Human, he made them a pair, A Man, and a Woman. Each one of them, a Special aspect of what is Humanity. Each one complements the other, as such, combined, they become whole, they together, become Humanity.

However, when a Man and Man join together, they become only half of the equation, they treat a man as a man, and a man as a woman. Thus they do not respect the man as a man when they treat the man as a woman.

Each one, a Man, and Woman, should be given proper respect for what they are, this is the nature of Human, to know that we as an individual, are not the all, and that a Man, is one aspect of ourselves, and a Woman is the other. Just as you are the combination of your Mother and your Father, they together, made you, and if you do not give respect to each of them, as they deserve, then you shame them.

A Woman, is an equal to a man, but her equal nature is based on the fact that she is different then a man. A Man is equal to a woman, but this also is based on the fact that a man is different then a woman.

When we do not respect that, we shame both and man and the woman.

When a Man treats a Man as a Woman, he brings shame to the Woman and the Man, because he does not respect them, and their special nature.

I hope I have explained that for you.

As for Transgression Against God. Sin is a Law for us to live By, to Allow us to be Free from many (If not all) of our own problems.

Thanks for trying to explain this, but you haven't really done anything other than justify why homosexuality is undesirable in your view. Just because some of these relationships don't fit your idea of what's respectful or normal doesn't mean that the people in the relationships don't love and respect one another. If you love your wife, what does it matter if others out there firmly believe that your relationship only shames the both of you? You're not hurting anyone, and if you find love and fulfillment in one another, I personally don't see any reason to say it's wrong.

While I can possibly understand that this might be an acceptable justification to many of you as to why homosexuality is wrong, please understand that these are views that I simply cannot embrace.

In terms of the actual question at hand, the sin aspect of it, I'll get back to that later on in my post.

That child will lie to you to get out of trouble. Now that might not be such a big deal, but think about this, that child just lied to you about that. And if they lie to you, then they will lie to others, and they get into the habit of lying. This, might not seem so bad, but, if they lie to you about that, what else have they lied to you about, and where can you trust them to tell the truth, can you depend on their words as truth?

I think it's rather unfair to blame the child and call it sinful if the only choices you're giving it are "confess so I can punish you" or "lie to me." But maybe I have a weird perspective on this... I come from a family that was very open and honest in terms of communicating with one another. When my siblings and I were growing up, there were never issues of lying to our parents about getting a bad grade, or breaking something, or other stuff like that kids usually lie about. Our parents struck this weird delicate balance between openness in communication and loving discipline that I still think back on, trying to figure out how they did it.

All this isn't to say that I haven't made some mistakes in my life or done things that I'm not proud of -- I'm just musing on the idea that if a four-year-old doesn't trust you enough to tell you the truth, maybe the four-year-old doesn't deserve the entire blame in that.

Watch the News.

See how we decay. Violence begets Violence, Hate to Hate, Sin to Sin.

I think we're back to talking about the negative consequences of human actions, which would exist whether or not we choose to call it sin... and if homosexuality is a sin, then there's more to sin than consequentiality.

What I'm trying to figure out is how sin operates in Christianity (and my apologies if I'm not phrasing this question clearly enough): When you say "Jesus died for our sins," is it just a fancy way of saying "Jesus died for the negative consequences of human actions"? Or is it supposed to mean something more than that? And if so, what? I think that's what I'm really driving at with this thread.

 

[talitha]

As usual, a thought-provoking question from SandRose.

Upon reading it, the very first thing that crossed my mind was this verse of scripture: "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". In typical Hebrew poetry form, an explanation is given by way of a parallel statement - to sin is to come short of the glory of God - and this verse is rarely quoted in the context in which it was written.

I don't know how familiar you are with Bible translations, SandRose, but the one I'm about to quote from is kind of verbose because it sort of expands upon the meaning of various words - because as you probably know it's impossible to completely cleanly translate from one language to another.

Romans 3:20-24 Amplified version"
20For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].

21But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
22Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
23Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives. 24[All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus....

I chose to use that version because to me it's clearer, even if it's wordy than my usual translations.

As this scripture indicates, the glory that God requires is that which only He can bestow - no amount of sacrifice or abstaining from this or that vice or random acts of kindness can get you into His presence, for you still will not measure up. This applies to us all. Only the righteousness that He freely gives us, and that we must humbly accept - righteousness that exceeds that of the most scrupulous Jew - will be spotless enough for us to remain in the presence of His holiness. That's why the precursor to the perfect sacrifice of His son was the sacrifice of an unblemished lamb, every year.

And the closer we grow to God, the more seemingly-innocuous practices must fall by the wayside - because they simply cannot be maintained alongside that kind of holiness.........

blessings in Jesus
tal

 

[mushowani]

Sin is going against the law. Breaking any law or rule is sin. It does not matter wat kind of law one has broken...
The first sin to be committed was that of pride when the devil wanted all of God's glory unto himself. It was a double sin(sic) - pride and rebellion. Therefore any form of pride and rebellion is sin.

man sinned when he went against God's commands. He was instructed not to eat of the tree in the middle and he did exactly that. Going against instruction, commands, and regulations is sin.

Going against God's laws, commands, rules, and will is what we can term as sin. Doinng anything that is detestable before God is sin. You know that you are going against God's will when your heart or mind is condemning you. A guilty conscience is a sure sign that you have gone against God's will. The Bilbe is also a source of God's commands and will. Going against what it says is sin...!!!

Doing what is wrong to fellow mankind is sin...
trespassing is sin (as in going against the good of those around you)

And one other thing that defines sin is selfishness

 

[ebia]

Firstly, I want to check my understanding of the Christian definition of sin...

The best non-jargon description I think is 'abuse'; sin is abusing a gift from God - taking that a gift and misusing it in some way.

Alternatively, sin is that which separates us from God.

I'm under the impression that it's something like, "transgression against God," and that it has nothing to do with whether or not an act is harmful to another human being.

For something to be sinful it must contravene one or both of the great commandments:
Love the Lord your God....
Love your neighbour as yourself.

Anyway, here's what I'm wondering: what really is the nature of sin? How does it work? Is it supposed to be tangible in some form, or is it meant to be taken as a metaphor? Is there any way that we as mortal beings can detect its existence or negation? In particular, I'm wondering about sin both in the sense of "original sin"

I don't buy the concept of original sin, which is very much a product of the western church (Augustine etc).

and in the phrase, "Jesus died for our sins" -- if someone could explain how sin operates in both of these contexts, I'd appreciate it.

"Jesus died for our sins" is really a shorthand slogan for the idea that Jesus death and resurrection frees us from our sins and restores our relationship with God.

 

[dvd_holc]

dvd_holc: You seem to be defining sin as selfishness... would this be an accurate summary of your post? And if so, is this to say that sin isn't tangible in any way? Also, you said

Intended by whom? What actually happened regarding sin during the crucifixion?

Selfishness is the root of sin. Sin is manifest in the pursuits of the eyes, flesh, and pride of life. This can be described as:

Gal. 5:19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:28Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Luke 6:43"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45Good people bring good things out of the good stored up in their heart, and evil people bring evil things out of the evil stored up in their heart. For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.


Jesus death...first, God gave us a picture that through the death of the lamb that wrath of God because of sins would be carried out on the lamb rather on the person who sinned. Second, Jesus intended that through His death the wrath of God was poured out on Him rather than the people. This is further important for the restoration of the people out of exile which the people where waiting for. Lastly, it was His obedience to stand as the prophet who spoke the words of God and let the wicked servants do the worst to Him. In the process of the wicked servants, the Prophet would be vindicated and exalted which would be justification of His message and purpose.

 

[Dondi]

If breaking God's commandments results in sin, maybe it would be instructive to know what the absence of sin would be like.

When asked what the greatest commandment, Jesus replied in Matthew 22:36-40:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

All the commandments are predicated upon two things: Loving God and loving our neighbor.

Mere obedience to the Law does not produce love. For love is based on motives. But because of our nature to sin, we have wrong motives, as Jesus expounded in Matthew 5:21-28, when He spoke of how the commandments of murder and adultery reside in the attitudes of the heart. That is why the Law cannot save. For the Law cannot reach into the heart.

So where do we get the means to love, since we are so bent on sinning? Well, since God is Love and that Love is Perfect, we have to get it from Him. So we need God in our hearts to produce that Love. And that is precisely why He sent Christ to die, so that we might experience the life of God through His Holy Spirit:

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law....
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." - Galatians 5:16-18, 22-23

Why did Christ have to die for us? Because in order for us to experience the Spirit of God, we have to be made a clean vessel. The sins we have committed in the past have to be dealt with. And Jesus dealt with them on the cross. Once our sins are forgiven and we are clean, then the Holy Spirit can enter us. The Blood of Christ provides the perpetual cleansing so that the Holy Spirit can abide in us. Then we can love others and fulfill the Law in Love.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

OldChurchGuy: Thanks for adding your point of view to this thread. If I understand your post, you're saying that Sin is something that exists only in God's eyes -- sort of like a scorecard of our actions? Like Sin is more of a metaphorical thing referring to how God judges us, how he adjusts the criteria for holding people accountable for their actions, etc. If this is so, I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit on what actually happened regarding Sin during the crucifixion?

As I understand things, sin still existed during and after the crucifixion, but it now became secondary to the gift of grace. The Law, as I see it, was a collection of rules and regs to answer the question "How do we stay on the good side of God?". Jesus the Christ pointed out that people were worshipping the Law rather than the God behind the law. With the cricifixion and resurrection, worship of the Law was replaced with a refocusing on God through the gift of grace. Put another way, Jesus the Christ blazed the trail for us to rediscover the God of grace and love. Crafting this answer has been more difficult than I thought and I am not sure I have really answered your question. If not, don't give up; just ask more questions.

dvd_holc: You seem to be defining sin as selfishness... would this be an accurate summary of your post? And if so, is this to say that sin isn't tangible in any way? Also, you said



Intended by whom? What actually happened regarding sin during the crucifixion?

Answer to your question is above in green font, bold and underlined.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[Confess]

Q. How do I know I am a sinner?
A. I get sick, I die.

Only sinners can get hurt. By our very nature we are sinners. That is to say that by my very nature I am a red-head. I can do a lot to change the color of my hair, but I will always be a red-head.

Sin is the thing that separates us from God. There is an impassable gulf between us and God. Our nature prohibits us from being united to God as was Adam and Eve. Thus, when a baby in conceived, it is conceived in sin and is unable to cross that bridge lest God does something to fill in that gap.

God filled in that gap between man's sinfulness and God's Holiness through the suffering and death of Jesus Christ. For an infant, faith is given to it through Baptism. Through this sacrament God fulfills a promise of salvation. For those who die before baptism, God has stated that the faithfulness of the parents will be blessed.

There are 2 kinds of sin.

1. Original sin: The sin I just finished talking about
2. Actual sin: The conscious sin that we commit on a daily basis.

With actual sins we tend to feel enslaved by them. Some sins are harder to overcome then others. Most people have a certain sin that they never overcome. In this, we sin against God in thought, word and deed. By what we have done and by what we have left undone, we do not love God with our whole heart, nor our neighbor as ourself. And for all this we pray for help from God to overcome such sins and pray for his forgiveness.

 

[Key]

Thanks for trying to explain this, but you haven't really done anything other than justify why homosexuality is undesirable in your view. Just because some of these relationships don't fit your idea of what's respectful or normal doesn't mean that the people in the relationships don't love and respect one another.

You are confusing concepts.

Sexual Orientation has nothing to do with Love or Respect.

Love and Respect have nothing to do with Sexual Orientation.

A Heterosexual can love and respect another of the same gender, with out sexual attraction.

This a common mistake made by people that try to link the two of them together. They are mutually exclusive aspects of our existence.

If you love your wife, what does it matter if others out there firmly believe that your relationship only shames the both of you?

The question I would have to ask, is why it brings shame.

This is a common issue of people that focus on Self at the expense of all others.

You're not hurting anyone, and if you find love and fulfillment in one another, I personally don't see any reason to say it's wrong.

Fulfillment and Sexual Orientation also have nothing in common, they are mutually exclusive aspects.

Your Sexual Orientation, is just that.... your sexual orientation. It should not be confused with Love, Respect, Happiness, Fulfillment, or anything else.

While I can possibly understand that this might be an acceptable justification to many of you as to why homosexuality is wrong, please understand that these are views that I simply cannot embrace.

Well there are some humanist Views that also deal with this, they are Evolutionary and Social.

The Social Aspect was tested on Rats, rats will multiply to meet their environment, however, if they grow beyond their supply limits, some of them will become homosexual to curb the reproduction of the rats, so they can maintain their equilibrium with their supply.

The Evolutionary Aspect is a little different, the concept is that there is a fault in their genetic structure that should not be passed on, to prevent the passing on of the genetic code, they become homosexual to cull negative genetic drift.

There is also, finally other views, like "prison Homosexuality" and that is the need for sexual release, but not having an appropriate partner, this the weakest "Members" become the subordinate of the species, and preform those roles. Not too much different then Catfish, where if a male is not present, the largest female will become a male.

If I had to make a choice, I would much rather go with the idea of "Honor and Shame" then the other options. They seem so... degrading ....

Now.. I would like to say also that I am Constutionalist American (A person that Believes in the Freedoms of the Constuton above all else), and that gets me the nice lable of Liberal, but that is another story. And I will say this.

"You being Homosexual does not impose on my constitutional freedoms, as such, you being homosexual should not impose on your constitutional freedoms, however, you telling me that I should accept homosexuality as morally good, does impose on my constitutional freedoms, and I shall never stand for that"

I think it's rather unfair to blame the child and call it sinful if the only choices you're giving it are "confess so I can punish you" or "lie to me." But maybe I have a weird perspective on this...

I would have to say, you do.

The Child does not want to held accountable for their actions, thus they lie.

But why do they not want to be held accountable?

Because of Sin.

All this isn't to say that I haven't made some mistakes in my life or done things that I'm not proud of -- I'm just musing on the idea that if a four-year-old doesn't trust you enough to tell you the truth, maybe the four-year-old doesn't deserve the entire blame in that.

They trust you... they trust that you will punish them, and a punishment they deserve none the less.

However.. they do not want to be accountable for their actions, and they play upon your trust in them.. a trust.. that after they lie.. is undeserving.

So.. they commit two acts that deserve punishment.

One: What ever they did that was wrong.

Two: They lie to you about it to avoide being accountable for their actions.

But that is how Sin Compounds.

Once it starts.... it just keeps on building...

I think we're back to talking about the negative consequences of human actions, which would exist whether or not we choose to call it sin...

Maybe... but.. they are called sin for a very Good Reason.. because they are things we should not do.

and if homosexuality is a sin, then there's more to sin than consequentiality.

Going back to the Honor and Shame. If we do not respect each gender as special.. then we do not respect them at all. If we do not respect them.. we then do not treat a woman in a way that would honor her.. and we do not treat a man in a way that would honor him. In this way, we destroy the special nature of each gender, and that begets confusion.

What I'm trying to figure out is how sin operates in Christianity (and my apologies if I'm not phrasing this question clearly enough): When you say "Jesus died for our sins," is it just a fancy way of saying "Jesus died for the negative consequences of human actions"? Or is it supposed to mean something more than that? And if so, what? I think that's what I'm really driving at with this thread.

Imagine... every sin you commit.. is like a stain on your clothing. Each lie you told.. is a stain.. each thing you stole is stain.. and you can not remove them.. if you go an tell the truth.. that does not change that you lied.. if you return the item you took.. that does not change the fact that you stole it. All you can do is make amends. But how do you make amends, how do you clean this stain from your clothing. Each wrong you did, each act you are not proud of, each time you faulted and did what you knew was wrong, they are stains upon you.

And God will not allow Filth in his House.

But Jesus will clean your every Stain so that you can enter Heaven, if you but ask.

You just have to make reservations before hand.

God Bless

Key