What is science?

[LorentzHA]

My point was, this big bang theory and stuff is just a bunch of garbage. God was there. There is intellegent design, and there is no way that everything around us originated from nothing. Also, if all this stuff originated from something, how is it that thing got there in the first place? I refuse to believe that the universe just formed from an extremely lucky sequence of events. Why is it that I'm not that lucky? hahahahahaha!

No not garbage. Please research The CMB and Red Shifting, before you say that. Also-do you know the distinction between a Universe, Galaxy and solar system? I find that many people who say this speak in realtion to our solar system and talk about the "spin" cof our planets, which formed WAY after the Big Bang, but act as though our planet exploded directly out of it and its spin is contingents upon it, not so. Also, you say "around us" like we are the center? Our solar system is not even near the center of our own galaxy! We are at the outer, outer fringes of one of its spiral arms and there are Billions of other galaxies each with several hundred Billion stars like our own Sun. Also it may interest you to know that our planet formed about 9 Billion years AFTER the Big Bang.

How is it that the world keeps on rotating around the sun at the ideal language and the sun heats it just right, and it can keep a perfect rotation so as not to kill us! That just amazes me looking at it from the "science" that it just regulates itself by chance. If this is true, we sure are lucky.

It is called gravity between 2 stellar objects. And when you say "just right" you mean, for our type of life. If it were farther or closer it may be "just right" for another type. Eventually our Star (Sun) will approach its Red Giant stage and life will not be able to exist o nthis planet. Luckliy, that is QUITE a ways off, since, the star we orbit is 1/2 through its life cycle.

 

[Jet Black]

My point was, this big bang theory and stuff is just a bunch of garbage. God was there.

I told you already dude. there is piles of evidence for it, and none falsifying it.

There is intellegent design,

where is that then dude?

and there is no way that everything around us originated from nothing.

well actually it is a possible outcome if you run the quantum mechanics backwards in time. still, just because we don't know how the big bang started doesn't mean that it never happened.

Also, if all this stuff originated from something, how is it that thing got there in the first place?

there are a number of possibilities dude, loigcal necessity, quantum tunneling, ekpyrotic, even God!

I refuse to believe that the universe just formed from an extremely lucky sequence of events.

well we dunno how it started yet, so no worries!
[QUOTE

How is it that the world keeps on rotating around the sun at the ideal language
[/QUOTE]language? if you mean lucation, I'll let you in on a little secret: gravity!

and the sun heats it just right, and it can keep a perfect rotation so as not to kill us! That just amazes me looking at it from the "science" that it just regulates itself by chance.

gravity again!

I'm not saying all science is crazy, in fact science has proved the existance of a high power on MANY occasions. For instance, the story of the time of the great floods is totally possible, because there is evidence of sea shells on mile-high mountains!

naah, it's called plate tectonics dude. here is a little experiment for you. Draw a bunch of fish on a piece of paper. now take the ends of the paper and push the ends towards the middle... the middle of the paper ends up in the air! this is kinda like a little paper mountain with a little fish on top of it now! cool eh? now you can go and show all your friends how fish got on top of mountains!

Come on science, the Bible is not just a bunch of junk. There is power and truth in his word!

whatever you say dude, just don't try pretending science is junk when it ain't

 

[WanderingMagi]

I told you already dude. there is piles of evidence for it, and none falsifying it.
where is that then dude?
well actually it is a possible outcome if you run the quantum mechanics backwards in time. still, just because we don't know how the big bang started doesn't mean that it never happened.
there are a number of possibilities dude, loigcal necessity, quantum tunneling, ekpyrotic, even God!
well we dunno how it started yet, so no worries!

Isn't that a bit of a problem? To say that if you run quantum mechanics back in time it is possible is an exageration. We don't have a clue. This period is the stuff of (informed) conjecture by the greatest scientists now living.
The greater problem is the existence of the laws which permit the emergence of the universe. To quote the anthropic principle is not an argument - it merely takes chance out of the equation.
To be frank, while quantum physics etc. amy come up with an explanation, God remains at present an 'easier' one.

WanderingMagi

 

[LorentzHA]

For instance, the story of the time of the great floods is totally possible, because there is evidence of sea shells on mile-high mountains!

Oh my. I believe DaVinci spoke to this a LONG time ago, not to mention many others. He did it from common sense though, and science has affirmed it since. The seashells are on the mountains because the plates collided under the sea floor giving rise to the mountains (sorry not a geologist so my terminology may be off, but the idea is correct). IOW-the mountains came from under the sea floor. The Sea shells were not floating by and rested on the mountains during a great flood. A global flood has been falsified-did not happen.

 

[lucaspa]

Gods Universe is not Mans Universe, Gods universe includes spirituality and the dimensions thereof, its his creation. Mans Universe only studying the domain of man’s science and his interpretation of that universe.

Man's universe also includes spirituality. Even atheists have a spirituality. Humans do study the spiritual. Those are the domains of theology and philosophy.

I'm also making the point that it is not valid to look "at science as broad (atheistically)". Science is a limited form of knowing and not all questions fall into science. Atheists who look at science as the only form of knowing are making a mistake.

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then what would atheists believe as the alternative?

Atheists believe the material is all there is. In an attempt to justify that belief, some atheists attempt to redefine science like you are: the only form of knowing available to humans. Since science doesn't show the existence of deity, militant atheists also attempt to redefine science to be logical positivism.

lucaspa: pay attention here -- where people can agree on what constitutes data. Thus, the "scientific method" of making hypotheses and testing them can be used, for instance, in Biblical scholarship where everyone agrees that the text of the Bible constitutes data. The Documentary Hypothesis accepted by nearly all Biblical scholars is the hypothetico-deductive method. It's not science, but it does use the same basic technique as science does.

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well I am not a Biblical scholar so I wouldn’t know what they do or use pertaining to proving the Bible, or if they use their interpretations based on a set of principles they wish to prove about science.

Please read what is written. The Documentary Hypothesis is about the authors of the Pentateuch. Based on the text of the Pentateuch, the DH says there were 4 authors whose text was redacted together to form the present Pentateuch. It's not about "proving" the Bible, but does discuss the authorship of the Pentateuch.

For instance disproving evolution, do they search the Bible for their own interpretation to disprove it? or believe in their faith of the Bible?

The DH doesn't disprove evolution at all. And you aren't going to disprove evolution this way. The Bible is not a science text. Science looks only at direct experience of the universe. The text of any document isn't going to cut it as a means of disproving any scientific hypothesis/theory.

Why did you ignore my example of a question science can't answer?

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because what man can do is not what God can do. I do not recognize a clone as a creation of God.

So once again you substitute yourself for God. How do you know God doesn't recognize a clone as a creature of God.

But, more importantly, your answer isn't relevant to the issue. What was being discussed was what science could answer. Not what "God can do." Why is it so hard for you to stay on topic. Science can answer the question: can we make a human clone? But science can't answer: should we make a human clone?

How do you "know"? Don't you also have something "seen" with your eyes or at least seen by people you trust?

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you know the stories of Elisha? When the Servant arose he saw the enemy surrounding his City with horses and Chariots, the servant asked him, what do we do? they outnumber us. Elisha told him don’t fear, those who are with us outnumber them. The servant didn’t understand this, Elisha prayed that his eyes might be opened. And the Servants eyes were opened and he saw the mountain covered with horses and chariots of fire. What was the servants eyes opened to? They were opened to the Universe of God, the spiritual and physical dimension. How did Elisha know they were there? He may not have seen the Army of Angels, but he knew they were there. What evidence did he have that they were there?

Thank you for backing my point so well. You "know" by the same criteria Jet Black uses. Something you have seen or, in this case, you trust the author of the story of Elisha to report the story accurately.

 

[lucaspa]

Yes your right, defining the boundary of science as things that are falsifiable does not always work, Although I would say it works most of the time. I should have said that it doesn't bother to touch things like Deity.

Sorry, but the last sentence isn't true, either. Some recent references:
1: Wood WJ. The stairway to recovery. An emerging worldview uncovers God's wisdom in nature.Health Prog. 1992 Mar;73(2):54-9.PMID: 10116506
2: Russell RJ. Did God create our universe? Theological reflections on the Big Bang, inflation,and quantum cosmologies.Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2001 Dec;950:108-27.
3: Gingerich O. Scientific cosmology meets western theology: a historical perspective.Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2001 Dec;950:28-38.

Try a PubMed search on "God" and see what you get.

While science does bother to "touch" on deity, science hasn't been able to reach a consensus due to the limitations of methodological materialism.

 

[lucaspa]

It had to come from somewhere Airkay

But there are multiple competing hypotheses on where "it" came from. Only one of the hypotheses is deity and none of them have been falsified.

For instance, one hypothesis is that the universe did not come from somewhere, but simply IS. It's called No Boundary. Read about it:

1. http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/inf_lowden.html
2. http://online.itp.ucsb.edu/online/colloq/hawking1/

 

[lucaspa]

Hahahaha, I always find myself having the need to clear up the stuff I say.

My point was, this big bang theory and stuff is just a bunch of garbage. God was there.

I think you need to check out www.reasons.org. According to those Christians, the only ones who question the Big Bang are atheists.

There is intellegent design, and there is no way that everything around us originated from nothing.

Hmm. According to standard Christian theology, God did create the universe (everything around us) from nothing. It's called "ex nihilo" in Latin. You have just denied Christian theology. Nice work.

I refuse to believe that the universe just formed from an extremely lucky sequence of events.

Argument from Stubborness. Always a winner.

Why is it that I'm not that lucky? hahahahahaha!

You are. You are the end result of millions of generations of winners. If they hadn't been, you wouldn't be here. Pretty lucky to be here, aren't you? Not that you are doing much with that luck.

How is it that the world keeps on rotating around the sun at the ideal language and the sun heats it just right, and it can keep a perfect rotation so as not to kill us!

The Anthropic Prinicple. How many stars in this galaxy? 100 billion. How many galaxies? Millions. What are the odds that one of those stars would have a planet the size of earth at the distance from the sun as earth? The odds are one. Virtual certainty.

That just amazes me looking at it from the "science" that it just regulates itself by chance. If this is true, we sure are lucky.

Well, since science does not say everything is "chance", this is pretty irrelevant. Ever hear of the "laws" of science? Those aren't chance.

For instance, the story of the time of the great floods is totally possible, because there is evidence of sea shells on mile-high mountains!

Actually, it's not. According to the Bible, there should be no sea-shells on mile-high mountains! Because the waters rose gently and all the sea shells should be where they always were -- at the bottom of the ocean. so, the sea shells show there was no world-wide Flood.

Come on science, the Bible is not just a bunch of junk. There is power and truth in his word!

Yes, but not scientific accuracy. The power and truth is the theology, not the science. You are abusing the Bible.

 

[lucaspa]

Isn't that a bit of a problem? To say that if you run quantum mechanics back in time it is possible is an exageration.

That isn't what quantum fluctuation says. Events at the quantum level aren't "caused". There is data and mathematics to suggest that the universe is one large quantum fluctution. "First Cause" of the universe is that the universe isn't caused.

The greater problem is the existence of the laws which permit the emergence of the universe. To quote the anthropic principle is not an argument - it merely takes chance out of the equation.

The Anthropic Principle is not an argument for the existence of the laws. It's merely stating that the universe does have laws which permit human life.

Quantum splitting, multiverse, and bubble universe are ways to generate enough universes so that it becomes a virtual certainty that one of them will have these laws.

M Theory says that the laws arise out of the fundamental properties of matter. It is one of the attractions of M Theory.

To be frank, while quantum physics etc. amy come up with an explanation, God remains at present an 'easier' one.

WanderingMagi

We don't care what is the "easier" explanation. We care about what is the correct explanation.

 

[USAF]

Jet Black





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well call it having an education.

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and it’s the ignorance of that education that makes you believe in a false theory, for which you may never understand why I state this




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LorentzHA



Actually even though Lucaspa believes in a false theory, I still like to talk to him, because he doesn’t’ seam as ignorant as you guys do.

 

[Arikay]

LoL, what is this false theory again? Thats right, you dont seem to be able to say.

 

[USAF]

Lucaspa



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Man's universe also includes spirituality. Even atheists have a spirituality. Humans do study the spiritual. Those are the domains of theology and philosophy.

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whose spirituality? Mans Spirituality or Gods? When I took philosophy, it seamed like a bunch of garbage man made up it describe his physical universe.



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Atheists believe the material is all there is. In an attempt to justify that belief, some atheists attempt to redefine science like you are: the only form of knowing available to humans. Since science doesn't show the existence of deity, militant atheists also attempt to redefine science to be logical positivism.

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in other words they are left to believe in such stupidity as Evolution?



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The DH doesn't disprove evolution at all. And you aren't going to disprove evolution this way. The Bible is not a science text. Science looks only at direct experience of the universe. The text of any document isn't going to cut it as a means of disproving any scientific hypothesis/theory.

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well now that you understand what I am saying…. net step is to figure out what mean by faith.



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So once again you substitute yourself for God. How do you know God doesn't recognize a clone as a creature of God.

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Substitute myself as God? Your going to make a clone, and you think that is a creation of God? Do you? I have no idea what God you guys worship, but I am disgusted at the fact that man is so manipulated, that he can substitute mans science in place of God, and proclaim it to be how God works his creations, and then as a result, he will deny Gods Creations (such as Adam, Eden) because now his belief that he took mans science to substitute Religion with, cannot survive with the written word intact, so as a result, the faith is altered to accept a a false theory of man because that’s how he was taught in school? I was taught that in College as well, but I wasn’t stupid enough to buy into it.







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Thank you for backing my point so well. You "know" by the same criteria Jet Black uses. Something you have seen or, in this case, you trust the author of the story of Elisha to report the story accurately.

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oh here we ago again, so what have you altered now? So tell me, how does this story go according to the new religious beliefs? Was Elisha more evolved than all of us?



Naa, I believe Elisha was filled with the Holy Ghost. HE was a Servant of God, not a fabrication of your false theory

 

[USAF]

You challenge the faith, and its sad to witness

 

[Arikay]

what do you consider "witnessing"?

 

[LorentzHA]

because he doesn’t’ seam as ignorant as you guys do.

Oh, he doesn't seem as ignorant, does he? That is why people keep having a go at you, your ignorance. Your willfull ignorance. Basically- to be uninformed about facts. The person who says he doesn't "believe in" evolution and that, "evolution is a fairy tale", is calling people, ignorant? Priceless! You cannot even remember what you say from post to post! YOU argue about things that were your OWN words. Then when you go back and see that it is in fact what you said you will say, Ummm, uhhh, duh, well that is not how I meant it... From your prose and diction I know you don't have a degree, let alone, three! If anything, you picked up an Associates at a CC on base. HOWEVER, I am beginning to doubt (and praying) you are not even in The US AirForce; your maturity level would not allow for this. You strike me as a very immature young man in your late teens, most likely from a rural area, although it is so rural you probably do not classify it as such because it is much bigger than the the next town 20 minutes away. Your small town upbringing probably added to your narrow minded, simpleton views. Your ideas of what evolution alone is, IS frightening, I fear I would become nauseated broaching other topics with you. As far as the picture I am guessing that is your preacher. He has a crazed hard headed expression that I would place somewhere in a Southern Bible Belt State. As Jet and many others have told you, you are a BIG waste of time. You yourself said just yesterday that NO ONE is going to make you 'believe in something as ridiculous as evolution'(which there is proof for)' So, as I asked you yesterday why the h*** are you here, guy? To annoy us? The only thing you are accomplishing is 1. Making people want to distance from Christianity because they do not want to be associated with your level of willful ignorance OR 2. Making people lose respect for The US armed services. NEITHER OF THOSE IS A GOOD THING! As a Christian and a military man, you cannot feel good about either one, huh? Come to think of it I am not even believing you are a Christian, I am going to stick to my first guess of, Atheist Recruiter. (Open virtual door-places foot on USAF's rear end and shoves him outside into the howling wind. Door slams shut, the music starts to play again and once again people are able to enjoy themselves.)

Ignorance is not innocence, but sin--Robert Browning

 

[USAF]

LorentzHA





Ohh you don’t know 1 thing about me. You guys are upset because I state things and wont provide you with “”evidence”” I ask you how will it change your minds, you know it wont change your mind, and you know what you say wont change my mind. Yu just can’t live with that I suppose

 

[PhantomLlama]

LorentzHA





Ohh you don’t know 1 thing about me. You guys are upset because I state things and wont provide you with “”evidence”” I ask you how will it change your minds, you know it wont change your mind, and you know what you say wont change my mind. Yu just can’t live with that I suppose

Partially correct. We do get annoyed with you because your posts are nothing but unsupported assertions. Other people here, even some creationists, have at least the decency to back up what they say when asked to.

I cannot think of a single evolutionist here who would no change his mind if presented with good evidence. The fact that you cannot provide it is your problem, not ours.

Although it is nice that you admit to being a bigot.

 

[Data]

Ohh you don’t know 1 thing about me. You guys are upset because I state things and wont provide you with “”evidence”” I ask you how will it change your minds, you know it wont change your mind, and you know what you say wont change my mind. Yu just can’t live with that I suppose

Nope, that's wrong.

If I had solid evidence that evolution was wrong, I wouldn't beleive it. Why else would I beleive it in the first place?

 

[Jet Black]

LorentzHA





Ohh you don’t know 1 thing about me. You guys are upset because I state things and wont provide you with “”evidence”” I ask you how will it change your minds, you know it wont change your mind, and you know what you say wont change my mind. Yu just can’t live with that I suppose

we suspect you of not having any evidence.

 

[USAF]

PhantomLlama





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Partially correct. We do get annoyed with you because your posts are nothing but unsupported assertions. Other people here, even some creationists, have at least the decency to back up what they say when asked to.

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what is it going to change huh? you think you will change my mind? Do you think I will change your mind? Are you going to drop evolution?





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I cannot think of a single evolutionist here who would no change his mind if presented with good evidence. The fact that you cannot provide it is your problem, not ours.

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ohhhh don’t give me that, they formed their own beliefs around what they were taught and fed. If you presented any contradiction, they will dispute it and hold onto evolution. You can’t change peoples minds.