What is reason?

[Tinker Grey]

We have to assume that logic is true because the preponderance of the evidence supports that conclusion, but we can only attempt to prove logic is true by using logic.

Generally I read "assume" as "assume without evidence" or "baseless assumption". Perhaps we mean the same thing then.

Also, I wouldn't use "prove". For me, what we are demonstrating is the utility of the tool. Experience shows that we are "doing it right" or not.

The question "is logic true" is almost meaningless. The question, I think, is does our tool gives us useful results.

 

[sandwiches]

Precludes or precedes?

Precedes, indeed. I hadn't actually read my post until now.

I need a Monster to wake up.

 

[bricklayer]

All reasoning is presuppositional. One must employ presuppositional reasoning to deny presuppositional reasoning. Any explicit attempt to deny it implicitly affirms it.

All reasoning is presupposition extrapolated. Even sound reasoning is just presupposition extrapolated logically.
Because God has no chronological sequence of ideas, all of His ideas are presuppositions.

Reason is the ontological sequence of ideas.

 

[sandwiches]

All reasoning is presuppositional. One must employ presuppositional reasoning to deny presuppositional reasoning. Any explicit attempt to deny it implicitly affirms it.

All reasoning is presupposition extrapolated. Even sound reasoning is just presupposition extrapolated logically.
Because God has no chronological sequence of ideas, all of His ideas are presuppositions.

Reason is the ontological sequence of ideas.

Presuppositions indicate a sequential relationship to conclusions. Thus God, being timeless, cannot have presuppositions or conclusions: Merely thoughts. All thoughts. At once. And none. Ever.

 

[bricklayer]

Presuppositions indicate a sequential relationship to conclusions. Thus God, being timeless, cannot have presuppositions or conclusions: Merely thoughts. All thoughts. At once. And none. Ever.

God has no chronological sequence of ideas;
however, God's ideas do have an ontological sequence to them.

God does not come to know or form ideas;
however, God's ideas are ordered in that some ideas follow from others logically.

All of God's ideas are presuppositions.

A supposition is that which is held to be self-evident.
A presupposition is supposition that is built upon.

Reason is the ontological sequence of ideas.
For human beings, there is always also chronological squence.

 

[sandwiches]

God has no chronological sequence of ideas;

Actually, this is a good point. To be able to formulate thoughts or ideas, time must pass.

however, God's ideas do have an ontological sequence to them.

God does not come to know or form ideas;
however, God's ideas are ordered in that some ideas follow from others logically.

All of God's ideas are presuppositions.

A supposition is that which is held to be self-evident.
A presupposition is supposition that is built upon.

Reason is the ontological sequence of ideas.
For human beings, there is always also chronological squence.

This doesn't follow your above assertion. If God doesn't have sequence of ideas, he can't have ordered ideas.

But I'll go along for the sake of continuing this interesting thread. If God, being omnipotent, omniscient and timeless, knows all ideas and thoughts, then all ideas that could ever be thought up by anyone anywhere and at any time, then all human knowledge, which has all been God's ideas, are self-evident.

So, either:
a) All knowledge and ideas are presuppositions as per your claim that all of God's ideas are.
b) Not all his ideas are presuppositions as claimed.
c) God does not know everything.

 

[bricklayer]

Actually, this is a good point. To be able to formulate thoughts or ideas, time must pass.

however, God's ideas do have an ontological sequence to them.

God does not come to know or form ideas;
however, God's ideas are ordered in that some ideas follow from others logically.



This doesn't follow your above assertion. If God doesn't have sequence of ideas, he can't have ordered ideas.

But I'll go along for the sake of continuing this interesting thread. If God, being omnipotent, omniscient and timeless, knows all ideas and thoughts, then all ideas that could ever be thought up by anyone anywhere and at any time, then all human knowledge, which has all been God's ideas, are self-evident.

So, either:
a) All knowledge and ideas are presuppositions as per your claim that all of God's ideas are.
b) Not all his ideas are presuppositions as claimed.
c) God does not know everything.

God has no CHRONOLOGICAL sequence of ideas.
God does have an ontological sequence of ideas.

Your oversite is common, because human beings have a commensurate measure of chronology to our ontological sequencing.
Implying upon God a chronological sequencing of ideas is an anthropomorphism called an anthropoisis.

Never forget, the very idea of time (the progressive sequential incrementation of the space/time continuum)
is God's idea.

 

[quatona]

Actually, this is a good point. To be able to formulate thoughts or ideas, time must pass.



God has no CHRONOLOGICAL sequence of ideas.
God does have an ontological sequence of ideas.

Your oversite is common, because human beings have a commensurate measure of chronology to our ontological sequencing.
Implying upon God a chronological sequencing of ideas is an anthropomorphism called an anthropoisis.

Never forget, the very idea of time (the progressive sequential incrementation of the space/time continuum)
is God's idea.

And whose idea is "ontological sequence"?

 

[sandwiches]

Actually, this is a good point. To be able to formulate thoughts or ideas, time must pass.



God has no CHRONOLOGICAL sequence of ideas.
God does have an ontological sequence of ideas.

Your oversite is common, because human beings have a commensurate measure of chronology to our ontological sequencing.
Implying upon God a chronological sequencing of ideas is an anthropomorphism called an anthropoisis.

Never forget, the very idea of time (the progressive sequential incrementation of the space/time continuum)
is God's idea.

You skipped or ignored my whole bottom part where anything and everything that can be thought is a presupposition by your logic. I'll reiterate:

But I'll go along for the sake of continuing this interesting thread. If God, being omnipotent, omniscient and timeless, knows all ideas and thoughts, then all ideas that could ever be thought up by anyone anywhere and at any time, then all human knowledge, which has all been God's ideas, are self-evident.

So, either:
a) All knowledge and ideas are presuppositions as per your claim that all of God's ideas are.
b) Not all his ideas are presuppositions as claimed.
c) God does not know everything.

 

[bricklayer]

You skipped or ignored my whole bottom part where anything and everything that can be thought is a presupposition by your logic. I'll reiterate:

But I'll go along for the sake of continuing this interesting thread. If God, being omnipotent, omniscient and timeless, knows all ideas and thoughts, then all ideas that could ever be thought up by anyone anywhere and at any time, then all human knowledge, which has all been God's ideas, are self-evident.

So, either:
a) All knowledge and ideas are presuppositions as per your claim that all of God's ideas are.
b) Not all his ideas are presuppositions as claimed.
c) God does not know everything.

Omniscience is not just knowing everything, it also implies the inability to not know anything.

 

[bricklayer]

And whose idea is "ontological sequence"?

Ontological sequence is order.
Order is one of God's attributes, a characteristic attributable to God.

 

[sandwiches]

Omniscience is not just knowing everything, it also implies the inability to not know anything.

So, what you're saying is that the answer is "c," God doesn't know everything.

 

[quatona]

Ontological sequence is order.
Order is one of God's attributes, a characteristic attributable to God.

Ok, but that´s not an answer to my question.

 

[bricklayer]

Ok, but that´s not an answer to my question.

Ontological sequence is an uncreated idea, as opposed to chronology.

 

[bricklayer]

So, what you're saying is that the answer is "c," God doesn't know everything.

Reread my answer more carefully. You seem to have missed the double negitive.

I'll phrase it this way, for you.
God not only knows everything, He is unable to not know everything.

 

[variant]

Reason is having consistency in how ones thoughts fit together and when relating categories, having a logical flow of ones arguments.

It is also being able to draw conclusions inferences and deductions from evidence.

 

[variant]

We have to assume that logic is true because the preponderance of the evidence supports that conclusion, but we can only attempt to prove logic is true by using logic.

The fact that we can't escape using logic when trying to evidence anything only leads credence to both the idea that it has utility and the presumption that it is true.

 

[sandwiches]

Reread my answer more carefully. You seem to have missed the double negitive.

I'll phrase it this way, for you.
God not only knows everything, He is unable to not know everything.

My mistake then. So, it is "a," then. All human ideas, God having always had them, are presuppositions. This isn't terribly useful, descriptive, or meaningful then.

 

[bricklayer]

Reason is having consistency in how ones thoughts fit together and when relating categories, having a logical flow of ones arguments.

It is also being able to draw conclusions inferences and deductions from evidence.

The ideas you discribe are intellectual perceptions (a coming to know).
All of God's ideas are intellectual conceptions.

 

[bricklayer]

The fact that we can't escape using logic when trying to evidence anything only leads credence to both the idea that it has utility and the presumption that it is true.

The first-principles of logic are the ideas that must be employed to be denied.
Any explicit attempt to deny them implicitly affirm them.
They are self-evident.

You are right to observe that all reasoning is presuppositional.
One must employ presuppositional reasoning to deny presuppositional reasoning.

Because God has not chronological sqeuence to His ideas, no intellectual perceptions, all of God's ideas are presuppositions.