Discussion What is our identity in Christ?

[ByTheSpirit]

Some will say our identity is that of "sinner..." with the added description of "saved by grace".

Others state their identity is "Righteous and redeemed".

Why is this important? You may not feel it is at all. I think how we think about ourselves, identify our selves dictates a lot about our life.

You get your foot stuck in some thick mud and chances are likely your getting your shoe stuck in it and it will stay with you for some time. I'm of the opinion (and will vote accordingly) that believers are righteous in Christ. I don't even feel it is appropriate to call myself a sinner. Sure I once was, but my past doesn't define me. Your past doesn't define you. Christ does, doesn't he?

When God the Father looks at you and me, what does he see? Does he see sin or a sinner more importantly? I would say no, because the Holy Spirit resides in me and Jesus' precious blood has covered me. So if God the Father doesn't see me as a sinner, then why should I?

This isn't to promote sinful living, nor am I espousing that idea that because I'm "righteous" I can live how I want. Paul said we shouldn't use our freedom in Christ to sin and that God's kindness is supposed to lead us to true repentance.

Scripture says to come BOLDLY to God. If I'm living with this idea that I'm just some dirty rotten sinner that makes it difficult to approach God with boldness.

I'm just sharing some thoughts that I have had here. Didn't mean to preach/teach/whatever.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Some will say our identity is that of "sinner..." with the added description of "saved by grace"..

Grace is God's favor, not magic dust. God is fully capable of seeing who you are. He doesn't have a special set of "sin" glasses that only sees Christ when he looks at you. I mean...read Genesis six and seven. He was fully aware of the sin of the world and was able to see it for what it was. He is omniscient after all.

So how he sees you is how you actually are at any given moment. If you sin, he sees you as a sinner. If you clean that up and ask forgiveness, should you ever sin, then he forgives you and sees you as righteous (assuming you put yourself in Christ when you started your walk with God). Just like Abraham and everyone else who he counted as righteous because they lived by faith, he sees you for what you are.

The real question is, how do you see yourself? We don't see Bible authors constantly trying to shame individuals, but pointing them in the right ways to think and act. If God were doing everything, it seems weird that they would do this. What you think of yourself and how you assess your own life is also important if you are using the word of God to direct your paths.

 

[Phil W]

Some will say our identity is that of "sinner..." with the added description of "saved by grace".

Others state their identity is "Righteous and redeemed".

Why is this important? You may not feel it is at all. I think how we think about ourselves, identify our selves dictates a lot about our life.

You get your foot stuck in some thick mud and chances are likely your getting your shoe stuck in it and it will stay with you for some time. I'm of the opinion (and will vote accordingly) that believers are righteous in Christ. I don't even feel it is appropriate to call myself a sinner. Sure I once was, but my past doesn't define me. Your past doesn't define you. Christ does, doesn't he?

When God the Father looks at you and me, what does he see? Does he see sin or a sinner more importantly? I would say no, because the Holy Spirit resides in me and Jesus' precious blood has covered me. So if God the Father doesn't see me as a sinner, then why should I?

This isn't to promote sinful living, nor am I espousing that idea that because I'm "righteous" I can live how I want. Paul said we shouldn't use our freedom in Christ to sin and that God's kindness is supposed to lead us to true repentance.

Scripture says to come BOLDLY to God. If I'm living with this idea that I'm just some dirty rotten sinner that makes it difficult to approach God with boldness.

I'm just sharing some thoughts that I have had here. Didn't mean to preach/teach/whatever.

I identify myself as one with Christ as He is one with God.
I am in Christ, and there is no sin in Christ.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I identify myself as one with Christ as He is one with God.
I am in Christ, and there is no sin in Christ.

If we sin, we are no longer in Christ. We can easily get back, but our position is dependent on our obedience. At least, that's my reading of First John.

 

[Phil W]

If we sin, we are no longer in Christ. We can easily get back, but our position is dependent on our obedience. At least, that's my reading of First John.

If you commit sin, there is no place to "get back" to.
You were never there in the first place.

We have an advocate for eternal life, but the manifestation of that life is obedience to God's commandments.
From the point of conversion, we are to walk in the light, God: and there is no sin in God.
It isn't a revolving door: it is a one way street.

 

[Al Touthentop]

If you commit sin, there is no place to "get back" to.
You were never there in the first place.

We have an advocate for eternal life, but the manifestation of that life is obedience to God's commandments.
From the point of conversion, we are to walk in the light, God: and there is no sin in God.
It isn't a revolving door: it is a one way street.

I wonder why John wrote this then, to Christians.

1 John 1:8-9
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "

 

[Phil W]

I wonder why John wrote this then, to Christians.

1 John 1:8-9
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "

In the first chapter of 1 John, John is addressing two very different kinds of men, two different kinds of walk.
One is in the light/God and the other is in the darkness/sin.
Verse 8 (plus 6&10) is addressed to those walking in darkness...you can't say you have no sin while you're sinning.
Verse 9 (plus 5&7) is the one of first steps to conversion and to walking in the light/God...wherein is no sin.

Think about this...if all our sins can be washed away by the blood of Christ, (verse 7), why can't we say we have no sin?
And if all our unrighteousness can be cleansed, why can't we say we are clean?
Of course our salvation depends on staying in the light.

 

[Al Touthentop]

In the first chapter of 1 John, John is addressing two very different kinds of men, two different kinds of walk.

One is in the light/God and the other is in the darkness/sin.
Verse 8 (plus 6&10) is addressed to those walking in darkness...you can't say you have no sin while you're sinning.
Verse 9 (plus 5&7) is the one of first steps to conversion and to walking in the light/God...wherein is no sin.

The letter is not about conversion. The people he's writing to have already been converted.

Think about this...if all our sins can be washed away by the blood of Christ, (verse 7), why can't we say we have no sin?

We can't say we have no sin when we sin. We are lying to ourselves if we commit a sin and say we haven't sinned. We can't say that it's impossible merely because we've been converted. The subject of the letter is fellowship and staying in fellowship. Its not a letter about how to be saved. It's a letter about how to stay that way.

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.

And if all our unrighteousness can be cleansed, why can't we say we are clean?

If we sin, then we are no longer clean. That's John's point. Christians can sin. But we first have to admit to ourselves that we have sinned, not lie about it and deny that we have sinned. And even one sin takes us out of our fellowship with God. In God there is NO darkness. Not even one bit of darkness or one sin. But if we do sin, we can confess that sin and be forgiven. The letter is about staying in fellowship with God.

 

[Phil W]

The letter is not about conversion. The people he's writing to have already been converted.

Can't John supply anymore information after people's conversion?
We all continue to grow in grace and knowledge after our conversions.
Chapter one deals with our, and unbeliever's, walks in either God or in sin.

We can't say we have no sin when we sin. We are lying to ourselves if we commit a sin and say we haven't sinned.

For sure.
Those are the one's walking in darkness, and they also can't say they have fellowship with God.

We can't say that it's impossible merely because we've been converted. The subject of the letter is fellowship and staying in fellowship. Its not a letter about how to be saved. It's a letter about how to stay that way.

1 John 1:9 is, and so is 1 John 2:1.

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full."

Amen to that.

If we sin, then we are no longer clean. That's John's point.
Christians can sin. But we first have to admit to ourselves that we have sinned, not lie about it and deny that we have sinned. And even one sin takes us out of our fellowship with God. In God there is NO darkness. Not even one bit of darkness or one sin. But if we do sin, we can confess that sin and be forgiven. The letter is about staying in fellowship with God.

His point is that those who commit sin, walk in darkness, cannot say they have fellowship with God.
But if they stay in the light, God, they can say it.

If one commits a sin, they show they were not in the light/God.
As 1 John 3:9 says that those born of God cannot commit sin, (as His seed remains in them), it is apparent that those walking in darkness from chapter 1 were never born of God.
Their confession will be the first step to being converted to the light.
If they sin yet again, it will prove again that they were still not born of God.
Fig trees (God) cannot bear grapes (sin).[/QUOTE]

 

[Al Touthentop]

Can't John supply anymore information after people's conversion?

It could if that is what it was written about. But it isn't.

If one commits a sin, they show they were not in the light/God.

That is a contradiction of what is written. They WERE in the light while the were walking in light (not sinning). But a person cannot be in the light and sin. When you sin, then you are out of the light and no longer have fellowship. To come back into the light, you have to admit that you sinned, repent and confess to God that you sinned. And he is faithful to forgive. The way to come back into fellowship is not to pretend that you didn't sin and whistle past the graveyard, it's to confront the truth and ask God for forgiveness.

As 1 John 3:9 says that those born of God cannot commit sin, (as His seed remains in them), it is apparent that those walking in darkness from chapter 1 were never born of God.
Their confession will be the first step to being converted to the light.
If they sin yet again, it will prove again that they were still not born of God.
Fig trees (God) cannot bear grapes (sin).

That passage is not speaking of the impossibility of sinning. Our own lives should make it self-evident that becoming a Christian did not endow us with magical power that prevents us from sinning. What he's talking about is our conscience and knowledge and Christ's law - the Perfect law of liberty as James calls it. Obviously Christians are able to sin but they don't want to if they consider they've been born of God. Plus, God forbids it. That's where the "cannot" comes in. But sometimes we slip up. If this passage were saying that we supernaturally can't sin, then that's the only words he needed to write in that letter. The meaning you are assigning would negate all the previous words and boy wouldn't it be amazing if the mere fact of becoming a Christian would magically cause us not to be able to sin. Oh happy day!

 

[Phil W]

It could if that is what it was written about. But it isn't.

I think it is more information after conversion.
Why don't you think so?

That is a contradiction of what is written. They WERE in the light while the were walking in light (not sinning). But a person cannot be in the light and sin. When you sin, then you are out of the light and no longer have fellowship. To come back into the light, you have to admit that you sinned, repent and confess to God that you sinned. And he is faithful to forgive. The way to come back into fellowship is not to pretend that you didn't sin and whistle past the graveyard, it's to confront the truth and ask God for forgiveness.

With all of 1 John in mind, those walking in darkness were never in the light.
You are inferring that men can shift back and forth between light and dark.
Why not just have one REAL repentance from sin and be done with darkness forever?

That passage (1 John 3:9) is not speaking of the impossibility of sinning.

Yes, it is.
If fig trees cannot bring forth grapes, why can God's seed bring forth the fruit of the devil?

Our own lives should make it self-evident that becoming a Christian did not endow us with magical power that prevents us from sinning.

In a sense, it did.
That which is born of God cannot commit sin.(1 John 3:9)
How much clearer can it be said/written?

What he's talking about is our conscience and knowledge and Christ's law - the Perfect law of liberty as James calls it. Obviously Christians are able to sin but they don't want to if they consider they've been born of God. Plus, God forbids it. That's where the "cannot" comes in.

We are also "able" to refuse all temptation.
God's seed will not bring forth the fruit of the devil.

But sometimes we slip up.

Speak for yourself.
You are denying the truth of 1 John 3:9, not to mention 2:4,6 and 3:2,6 and 4:4,17 and 5:2-3,18.

If this passage were saying that we supernaturally can't sin, then that's the only words he needed to write in that letter. The meaning you are assigning would negate all the previous words and boy wouldn't it be amazing if the mere fact of becoming a Christian would magically cause us not to be able to sin. Oh happy day!

As I said to start my reply to you, it is a message for both believers and unbelievers. Both those walking in light/God and those walking in darkness/sin.
It is a delineation between God's children and the children of the devil.
Rebirth from God's incorruptible seed is the supernatural means of freedom from the power of satan, and from the flesh with its affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
If not, what is the point of rebirth?
If nothing has changed, why is it a necessity for salvation?

 

[Al Touthentop]

I think it is more information after conversion.
Why don't you think so?

I think that's what it is. We may be talking past one another. That might be all me.

With all of 1 John in mind, those walking in darkness were never in the light.

Ok, that is not what the text says. It doesn't say never there.

You are inferring that men can shift back and forth between light and dark.

No, John is and I accept what he says.

Why not just have one REAL repentance from sin and be done with darkness forever?

That would be amazing. But repentance is not bestowed on us. It is what we do. It means to cease or turn away from something, sin, in general.

God used the word repent in the context of having created man in Genesis 6. There are no univocals in the scriptures, words which always mean the same thing every time they are encountered. Repentance is usually associated with sin but it's basic meaning is to turn away and other objects can be used in context which then clarify what is being turned away from.

Yes, it is.
If fig trees cannot bring forth grapes, why can God's seed bring forth the fruit of the devil?

Not saying that. The tree brings forth the fruit. And a good tree brings forth good fruit and a bad tree brings forth bad fruit. We are the trees and it is the thoughts of our heart that produce the fruit.

In a sense, it did.
That which is born of God cannot commit sin.(1 John 3:9)
How much clearer can it be said/written?

Depends on the reader. That word "cannot" is not the word "impossible." If John meant that he would have used the Greek word ἀδύνατον which means impossible instead of two words - οὐ δύναται - which means in this context 'not able' - forbidden - because the word or seed of God is in him, which commands us not to sin. You can peruse any New Testament letter to discover that the gospel forbids us to sin. If you want to read this "cannot" to mean "impossible" as in supernaturally endowed with magic so that you can't sin, then you not only have to discard the context of all of the rest of the letters written in the new testament, you have to forget that John wrote already in this letter that anyone who says they have no sin is a liar.

Is it your position truly that it is impossible for you to sin? Since you were saved you've never once sinned?

If you have sinned, then it is self-evident that John wasn't saying it's impossible for Christians to sin.

We are also "able" to refuse all temptation.
God's seed will not bring forth the fruit of the devil.

God gives us that strength if we will use it. Our ability to disobey him, is not evidence that his word brings forth fruit of the devil. Just the opposite. If his seed is in us, his word, then we produce good fruit. But when we allow the devil's seed to grow, we produce evil fruit.

If nothing has changed, why is it a necessity for salvation?

Everything has changed. Now when you sin, you don't have to kill a goat or a bull among other things. But God doesn't tolerate or regard sin and never has. He doesn't cause you not to sin through a supernatural power, but through his word which YOU have to digest and allow to control your will.[/quote][/quote]

 

[hislegacy]

I am exactly who scripture says that I am.

 

[Phil W]

I think that's what it is. We may be talking past one another. That might be all me.

OK...

Ok, that is not what the text says. It doesn't say never there.

If a man born of God cannot commit sin, those "saying" they are born of God, but committing sin, were never of God's seed.

No, John is and I accept what he says.

You will have to prove that John said men could switch back and forth between darkness and light.
If those with God's seed in them cannot commit sin, how can they return to darkness?

That would be amazing. But repentance is not bestowed on us. It is what we do. It means to cease or turn away from something, sin, in general.

Though I didn't say the gift of repentance is "given" to us, it actually is a gift.
"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18)

God used the word repent in the context of having created man in Genesis 6. There are no unequivocals in the scriptures, words which always mean the same thing every time they are encountered. Repentance is usually associated with sin but it's basic meaning is to turn away and other objects can be used in context which then clarify what is being turned away from.

We are dealing with sin here and now.

Not saying that. The tree brings forth the fruit. And a good tree brings forth good fruit and a bad tree brings forth bad fruit. We are the trees and it is the thoughts of our heart that produce the fruit.

The "tree" we are sprung from is God.
God's seed cannot bring forth the works of the devil.

Depends on the reader. That word "cannot" is not the word "impossible." If John meant that he would have used the Greek word ἀδύνατον which means impossible instead of two words - οὐ δύναται - which means in this context 'not able' - forbidden - because the word or seed of God is in him, which commands us not to sin. You can peruse any New Testament letter to discover that the gospel forbids us to sin. If you want to read this "cannot" to mean "impossible" as in supernaturally endowed with magic so that you can't sin, then you not only have to discard the context of all of the rest of the letters written in the new testament, you have to forget that John wrote already in this letter that anyone who says they have no sin is a liar.

As we have already covered the first chapter of 1 John in post #7, and that verse 8 is addressed to those walking in darkness, you are still misunderstanding the chapter in its entirety.
Some verses are addressed to those walking in the light and some are addressed to those who walk in darkness...and darkness is sin.
Sinners cannot say they have no sin.
Those walking in the light can say it.

BTW, never and impossible are synonyms in this context.

Is it your position truly that it is impossible for you to sin? Since you were saved you've never once sinned?

It is impossible for me to sin and call myself a Christian, or reborn of God's seed, or have any hope of salvation.
Sin is an option I always have, but with my new nature I am equipt to always reject the temptations to commit sin.

If you have sinned, then it is self-evident that John wasn't saying it's impossible for Christians to sin.

But I haven't, so my understanding of his words rings true.

God gives us that strength if we will use it. Our ability to disobey him, is not evidence that his word brings forth fruit of the devil.

Not the ability, but the doing manifests one is still a child of the devil.

Just the opposite. If his seed is in us, his word, then we produce good fruit. But when we allow the devil's seed to grow, we produce evil fruit.

You can only be gendered from one seed.
Pick salvation, or damnation, to manifest.

Everything has changed. Now when you sin, you don't have to kill a goat or a bull among other things. But God doesn't tolerate or regard sin and never has. He doesn't cause you not to sin through a supernatural power, but through his word which YOU have to digest and allow to control your will.

In your version of Christianity the only ones freed by the suffering and death of Jesus were the sacrificial animals.
The Jews awaited a Messiah to save them...from the Romans; not realizing that a far greater oppressor had them by the throat.
That oppressor was conquered by Jesus.
That oppressor was sin.
Jesus said the truth would free you from service to sin, in John 8:32-34.
I have been freed from sin.
That freedom is available to all who will love God above all else, and love their neighbors as they love themselves.

 

[Al Touthentop]

OK...


If a man born of God cannot commit sin, those "saying" they are born of God, but committing sin, were never of God's seed.

Of course they weren't because anyone who claims they are still allowed to sin after becoming a Christian did not understand the gospel in the first place.

The way you tell a real Christian from one who lives in error is that the real Christian - the one conforming to God's commands - is the one who stops sinning. At the time John wrote this there were many sects who advocated that one could keep sinning and still call themselves Christians. This wasn't about magic power, it was about what one told the world about his identity.

You will have to prove that John said men could switch back and forth between darkness and light.
If those with God's seed in them cannot commit sin, how can they return to darkness?

You will have to comprehend what he wrote. I can't help you there and am not going to try. He clearly says that a person who sins is "in darkness" and there is no darkness in God. Sin takes us out of fellowship and confession and prayer take away that darkness. While that darkness exists, we are no longer in fellowship.

Though I didn't say the gift of repentance is "given" to us, it actually is a gift.
"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18)

What is being said there is that Gentiles are granted the ability to obey the gospel, something they weren't clear was possible before the conversion of Cornelius. That is not a granting of repentance itself.

BTW, never and impossible are synonyms in this context.

Especially in context, the word impossible is not in play at all.

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."

That word whoever, means anyone at all including Christians.

Later in the "controversial" verse, the word sin - an imperfective verb - is properly translated - "continue sinning." As in, when we became Christians we were sinners, then we repented and we ceased sinning. We cannot still call ourselves Christians and continue sinning. This passage is telling the reader that one cannot continue sinning and still call themselves Christian. We are FORBIDDEN to sin.

It is impossible for me to sin and call myself a Christian, or reborn of God's seed, or have any hope of salvation.

OK, we're on the same page here. You would be wrong to call yourself a Christian and continue to sin.

Sin is an option I always have, but with my new nature I am equipt to always reject the temptations to commit sin.

That may be true but you are not prevented by becoming a Christian by any special power from yielding to temptation. And if you do yield and misstep, John writes that you can appeal to God for forgiveness. Becoming a Christian does not make it impossible to sin. But if you sin and then STILL call yourself a Christian, you're lying to yourself. So, you need to refrain from sin and if you make a mistake appeal to God.

But I haven't, so my understanding of his words rings true.

You have never sinned since you became a Christian? Amazing.

In your version of Christianity the only ones freed by the suffering and death of Jesus were the sacrificial animals.

That's not what I said. I understand now why you're having such a hard time interpreting scripture.

The Jews awaited a Messiah to save them...from the Romans; not realizing that a far greater oppressor had them by the throat.
That oppressor was conquered by Jesus.
That oppressor was sin.
Jesus said the truth would free you from service to sin, in John 8:32-34.
I have been freed from sin.
That freedom is available to all who will love God above all else, and love their neighbors as they love themselves.

No problem with any of that. But you have already admitted that you have the option to sin. So you were not supernaturally gifted with such a quality that it isn't possible to sin. If you sinned, you would be in darkness but you wouldn't have to remain there. However, were you never to confess that sin and ask for forgiveness, then you would be condemned.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Phil W]

Of course they weren't because anyone who claims they are still allowed to sin after becoming a Christian did not understand the gospel in the first place.
The way you tell a real Christian from one who lives in error is that the real Christian - the one conforming to God's commands - is the one who stops sinning. At the time John wrote this there were many sects who advocated that one could keep sinning and still call themselves Christians. This wasn't about magic power, it was about what one told the world about his identity.

We agree on that.

You will have to comprehend what he wrote. I can't help you there and am not going to try. He clearly says that a person who sins is "in darkness" and there is no darkness in God. Sin takes us out of fellowship and confession and prayer take away that darkness. While that darkness exists, we are no longer in fellowship.

Again, we agree. Though I would say "keeps us from having fellowship to begin with".

What is being said there is that Gentiles are granted the ability to obey the gospel, something they weren't clear was possible before the conversion of Cornelius. That is not a granting of repentance itself.

I, myself, feel that my ability to have a permanent turn from sin was a gift.
I thank God everyday for it.

Especially in context, the word impossible is not in play at all.

It is just semantics, how one uses the word.

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."
That word whoever, means anyone at all including Christians.

It could, if Christians committed sin.
It would however, prove their Christianity was false.

Later in the "controversial" verse, the word sin - an imperfective verb - is properly translated - "continue sinning." As in, when we became Christians we were sinners, then we repented and we ceased sinning. We cannot still call ourselves Christians and continue sinning. This passage is telling the reader that one cannot continue sinning and still call themselves Christian. We are FORBIDDEN to sin.

Exactly...in spite of the semantics !

OK, we're on the same page here. You would be wrong to call yourself a Christian and continue to sin.

That is correct.

That may be true but you are not prevented by becoming a Christian by any special power from yielding to temptation.

Is a grape vine "prevented" from bearing figs by a special power?
It is the nature of the seed to bear only the fruit of its progenitor.

And if you do yield and misstep, John writes that you can appeal to God for forgiveness. Becoming a Christian does not make it impossible to sin. But if you sin and then STILL call yourself a Christian, you're lying to yourself. So, you need to refrain from sin and if you make a mistake appeal to God.

After that forgiveness, you can start your life in Christ.
It won't be a continuation of life in Christ, but the start.

You have never sinned since you became a Christian? Amazing.

Not once.
And it is indeed amazing, and the manifestation of Jesus' conquest of sin.

That's not what I said. I understand now why you're having such a hard time interpreting scripture.

The OT Jews used the blood of bulls and goats to atone for their sins.
But they were still committing more sins afterwards.
In the NT, we have been freed from sin, so there is no falling away and returning over and over again.

No problem with any of that. But you have already admitted that you have the option to sin. So you were not supernaturally gifted with such a quality that it isn't possible to sin. If you sinned, you would be in darkness but you wouldn't have to remain there. However, were you never to confess that sin and ask for forgiveness, then you would be condemned.

A seed, in this case God's seed, can only bring forth Godly fruit.
Another kind of fruit proves whom you were born of.
I have the option to show I was never of any kind of seed but the devil's.
But by the grace of God, I don't.

 

[Al Touthentop]

The OT Jews used the blood of bulls and goats to atone for their sins.
But they were still committing more sins afterwards.
In the NT, we have been freed from sin, so there is no falling away and returning over and over again.

And Paul in Hebrews makes it plain that the difference between the gospel and the old law is that Christ made one sacrifice for all. It doesn't change the fact that believers may end up sinning.

A seed, in this case God's seed, can only bring forth Godly fruit.
Another kind of fruit proves whom you were born of.
I have the option to show I was never of any kind of seed but the devil's.
But by the grace of God, I don't.

It isn't God's grace which prevents you from sinning, it is your decision not to sin because you recognize and appreciate the grace he's given. God gives you tools to resist temptation and he says that there is no temptation that you can't overcome. What he never says is that he prevents you from making bad decisions. You can sin. And you will be forgiven for that sin if you admit you have sinned to yourself, confess it to God and ask for forgiveness.

 

[Phil W]

And Paul in Hebrews makes it plain that the difference between the gospel and the old law is that Christ made one sacrifice for all. It doesn't change the fact that believers may end up sinning.

If they are still sinning, they are still under the Law...for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)
Thankfully, because we can be reborn with a divine nature temptations to sin have no effect on us.

It isn't God's grace which prevents you from sinning, it is your decision not to sin because you recognize and appreciate the grace he's given. God gives you tools to resist temptation and he says that there is no temptation that you can't overcome. What he never says is that he prevents you from making bad decisions. You can sin. And you will be forgiven for that sin if you admit you have sinned to yourself, confess it to God and ask for forgiveness.

If one is of God's seed, he cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Oak trees cannot bear onions.
The seed determines the fruit.

It is written that "...God heareth NOT sinners", (John 9:31), so those perpetually committing sin and confessing over and over again are wasting their breath.
Their 'repentance' is a lie, and one cannot build a relationship with God that is based on lies.

 

[Al Touthentop]

If they are still sinning, they are still under the Law...for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)
Thankfully, because we can be reborn with a divine nature temptations to sin have no effect on us.

The gospel is itself a law. It also gives us knowledge of sin. Paul was talking about the old Mosaic law there but yes, in general knowledge of the law also gives us knowledge of sin. Sin is disobedience to the law. Specifically Paul was telling us that children, who know not the law are not condemned.

If one is of God's seed, he cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.
Oak trees cannot bear onions.
The seed determines the fruit.

That isn't how the passage is worded. What he says is that a person who is born of God and allows God's seed (word) to remain in him, will therefore refrain from sin.

It is written that "...God heareth NOT sinners", (John 9:31), so those perpetually committing sin and confessing over and over again are wasting their breath.

A person who continually sins is not repentant. So I would imagine that God might not hear him until he repents. But John says that God will hear us if we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness.

On the other hand Jesus said that we should forgive our brother seven times seventy times. So do you think God is less forgiving than Jesus said we should be?

Their 'repentance' is a lie, and one cannot build a relationship with God that is based on lies.

Their repentance is not for us to judge but God.

 

[Phil W]

The gospel is itself a law. It also gives us knowledge of sin. Paul was talking about the old Mosaic law there but yes, in general knowledge of the law also gives us knowledge of sin. Sin is disobedience to the law. Specifically Paul was telling us that children, who know not the law are not condemned.

I see no mention of children in Rom 3.
If one is committing sin, they are under the Law.

That isn't how the passage is worded. What he says is that a person who is born of God and allows God's seed (word) to remain in him, will therefore refrain from sin.

I agree with that summation, and the difference may be our versions of the bible.
The gist is that the seed of God cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

A person who continually sins is not repentant. So I would imagine that God might not hear him until he repents. But John says that God will hear us if we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness.

Only if it the last time you need to confess.
More sins would show the "not repentant" you wrote of above.

On the other hand Jesus said that we should forgive our brother seven times seventy times. So do you think God is less forgiving than Jesus said we should be?

Remember that Jesus was speaking to OT men.
They didn't yet have the ability to permanently turn from sin.
Everybody's life was repeat sinning, as they were all still in the flesh.
They couldn't walk in the Spirit till after Jesus was raised from the dead.

Their repentance is not for us to judge but God.

Is our estimation of a repeat sinner any less valid?
We have been given the mind of Christ, after all.