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What is our "default" condition in regards to salvation?

tall73

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This debate has been started a few times in various threads, and most recently in one on the progressive board. Since I can't debate there, and since it keeps going into other threads, I thought I would post it here!


Are all people saved by default unless they reject God?

Or

Are all people by default lost unless they repent and are born again?


Other related questions:

are we children of God or the Devil by default?

Who rules this world?
 

tall73

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Here are my initial comments from an earlier thread that went from one topic, to this one, to one on inspiration, so we never finished it.

God has power over the whole earth. But we can choose to allow Satan to own our will. Here are some verses that I feel do point out that our default condition is not to be saved, along with some commentary....Although I should note the default condition is due to our sin. If someone didn't sin the default condition wouldn't apply. But the Bible is quite clear that all have, so it does.

If by default condition you are referring to the condition before we sin, then yes, that is fine. But the Bible rarely addresses that issue, since everyone has sinned. And if you make the point that we don't have to warn people, I assume you include people who have sinned.

Since they have sinned, their condition is lost, and they are in need of warning.




JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

God does love the world and made a provision. But the condition is belief. Here it says plainly that anyone who does not believe in Him is condemned already.

1 John 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

If one does not have the Son of God they do not have life. The next verse speaks to those who believe in the Son of God..again the condition is belief.


EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Here we see that they were

a. dead in transgressions and sin
b. following the ruler of the air
c. by nature objects of wrath
d. but now they received His grace
e. They received it through faith.

Again we see the chain...lost, objects of wrath, faith, which leads to grace, forgiveness and salvation.


RO 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;

RO 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

RO 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

RO 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."

RO 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."

RO 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;

RO 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,

RO 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."

RO 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

RO 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Here Paul notes that all are unrighteous, and convicts the whole world of sin for violating his law. They are all silenced by the law and are accountable to God for their sin.

RO 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Again we see that the condition of the gift of righteousness from God apart from law is through faith to all who believe.
 
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smooze

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Jesus Said Even Tax collectors and Prostitutes will be first to inherit the kingdom just by believing. Satan of course has dominion over the world or how else could he have offered it to Jesus. How many of us sinner would have failed that test. I love Jesus i want to serve HIM in the new Jerusalem. AMEN
 
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payattention

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Dave, I will address the Pauline issue in a separate thread but I think we err when we base our understand of the human state before God on Paul's grasp while ignoring what happened to place us in the position we are. There is no question that this is a rogue planet in God's universe and the devil is in charge. But this is where it gets interesting. Humans did not rebel against God. We never said, "We do not wish to serve you anymore, Master. From now on we will serve the devil." The Bible plainly states that the devil deceived the into an act of disobedience. Let me use a practical example to illustrate my take on this.

We have all seen the pictures on milk cartons of children who were abducted. After the child has live ten years with the abductor whose lifestyle do you think that child follows? Would it be the lifestyle followed in the home from which the child was abducted or the lifestyle followed by the abductor? The answer is obvious so I will ask the next question. Do you legally hold the child responsible for making that choice? We are that child. For centuries, The Human has lived in the devil's household -- actually a prison believing he belongs to the devil.

In light of the above, it is obvious that "All have sinned and come short" was not written to answer the questions raised in this thread but to address the belief some had that they were fine; a resistance to change.

If we continue to place people in heaven or hell based on our observation of their lifestyles we have no right to claim to believe in righteousness by faith, not to mention the fact that we don't seem to have any principled standards that we apply. Let me explain.

We first assign Christians to heaven and the non-Christians to hell, irrespective of their lifestyle. As far as we are concerned, no matter how good a person you are you are going to hell if you are not a Christian. Vaudois even discounted the compassion of his acquaintances as not being a "copyrighted" Christian trait. But, when we begin to look at our fellow Christians we now begin to look at the things they do to decide which ones are true and which ones are fake. This is a sign of confusion; Babylon.
 
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StormyOne

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My take on the question.... the default position is saved... we have to choose to be lost..... The story of the prodicial son... the son did not start off in the pig pen, the story begins with him safely discontent in his father's house.... The story of the lost sheep... the lost sheep did not start lost, it started in the safety of the other sheep.....

We all belong to God.... even satan belongs to God...
 
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woobadooba

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StormyOne said:
My take on the question.... the default position is saved... we have to choose to be lost..... The story of the prodicial son... the son did not start off in the pig pen, the story begins with him safely discontent in his father's house.... The story of the lost sheep... the lost sheep did not start lost, it started in the safety of the other sheep.....

We all belong to God.... even satan belongs to God...

But if this is the case what sense is there in us telling people that they ought to believe in God and repent of their sins?
 
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StormyOne

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woobadooba said:
But if this is the case what sense is there in us telling people that they ought to believe in God and repent of their sins?

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 
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Vaudois

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Granted:
1) God owns everything. Yet on this planet for now, ownership is not fellowship by default.
2) Christ died for/because of everyone's rebellion status of sin.

This doesn't equate that all are saved from the the end results of sin (death), UNLESS they choose to "go back home to their father".

The Condition is repenting, turning away from one's own ways, pig stye or high-rise .

You can have a ticket to Hawaii waiting for you at the airport, but if you're too stoned, stubburn or don't believe there is an airport, ticket, or Hawaii...that ticket is useless for you.

For Adventists and all christians: the problem is many go to the airport, take the ticket and attempt to make the departure lounge their own "Maui".

Advice?: Get on God's jet...NOW!
 
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StormyOne

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Vaudois said:
Granted:
1) God owns everything.
2) Christ died for/because of everyone' rebellion status of sin.

This doesn't equate that all are saved from the the end results of sin (death), UNLESS they choose to "go back home to their father".

The Condition is repenting, turning away from one's own ways, pig stye or high-rise .

Only those who have chosen to leave must choose to return... that is why Jesus gave three stories, the lost coin, the lost sheep and the lost son..... in the first two stories the coin and the sheep were not aware that they were lost... you cannot make a choice if you are not aware....

Now if you are saying that our job is to increase awareness so that people can accept what has been given, I will agree....
 
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woobadooba

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StormyOne said:
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But then there's this one too, "Through Him also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And let us rejoice and exult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God." Rom. 5:2
 
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Vaudois

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Stormy said " Now if you are saying that our job is to increase awareness so that people can accept what has been given, I will agree...."

Yes, that is the bare minimum start of our job. I agree.

Therefore I cannot tell those in darkness "You're OK; you have as much knowledge of God as has been given to me, by grace and faith."

I must rather say "I see you are in the dark; doesn't matter how or why you got there; you are my friend in need. Here: take this Rope God has given me and let Him pull you out of that prison cell."
 
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payattention

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Vaudois said:
I must rather say "I see you are in the dark; doesn't matter how or why you got there; you are my friend in need. Here: take this Rope God has given me and let Him pull you out of that prison cell."
We were not discussing our role, but the default standing of man before God. If God winks at ignorance then our default standing must be "accepted in the beloved."
 
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tall73

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payattention said:
Dave, I will address the Pauline issue in a separate thread but I think we err when we base our understand of the human state before God on Paul's grasp while ignoring what happened to place us in the position we are. There is no question that this is a rogue planet in God's universe and the devil is in charge. But this is where it gets interesting. Humans did not rebel against God. We never said, "We do not wish to serve you anymore, Master. From now on we will serve the devil." The Bible plainly states that the devil deceived the into an act of disobedience. Let me use a practical example to illustrate my take on this.

a. Paul is not the issue, and neither is Eden, althought I will address the latter in a moment. The issue is that there are clear statements about the condition...."if anyone does not believe he stands condemned already." You are free to explain them away, but then, don't complain to woobadooba that:

"I think it is wiser to determine truth by the facts then by what we can make sense of."

This is the very thing you are doing. You are ignoring plain statements, but then using arguments to try to make sense out of things based on a story that you seem to question the overall literalness of in the first place. How is that not making sense of things rather than looking at facts?

b. Was Eve deceived in that she believed the serpent? Sure. Need she have been? NO. She had a clear statement regarding what she was to do, and what not to do. She was deceived because she decided to listen, think about it, and use her own judgment.

Moreover Adam was never said to be deceived. Nor are we deceived when we decide to sin even today, over and over, even after we know better
 
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payattention

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tall73 said:
a. Paul is not the issue, and neither is Eden, althought I will address the latter in a moment. The issue is that there are clear statements about the condition...."if anyone does not believe he stands condemned already." You are free to explain them away, but then, don't complain to woobadooba that:

"I think it is wiser to determine truth by the facts then by what we can make sense of."
This is the very thing you are doing. You are ignoring plain statements, but then using arguments to try to make sense out of things based on a story that you seem to question the overall literalness of in the first place. How is that not making sense of things rather than looking at facts?
Clear statements by a man who was himself trying to understand what was going on are not on the same level a the facts that created the situation. Again you keep exchanging terms that are not equivalent. Ignoring the facts is not the same as ignoring statements, which may only be opinions.
tall73 said:
b. Was Eve deceived in that she believed the serpent? Sure. Need she have been? NO. She had a clear statement regarding what she was to do, and what not to do. She was deceived because she decided to listen, think about it, and use her own judgment.

Moreover Adam was never said to be deceived.
If you took the time to study the story you would not make the mistake you just did. I will not claim to know exactly what happened historically in Eden, but I know how God wanted us to understand it, indicating the lessons He wanted us to take from it. The concepts presented are too off the wall for Moses to have made them up. He would more likely have made up the versions usually preached today. Your first error is to claim that Eve had a clear statement regarding what she was to do. Go back to Gen. 2:17-23 and you will find that Eve had not been created when the command was given to Adam. She may have heard it but not from God; she heard it from Adam. Which explains the added prohibition against touching the tree when she conversed with the serpent. EGW's commentary to the contrary do not match the legal ramifications.

That error led to your second error when you tried to separate Adam from Eve. Gen. 2 tells us that Eve was not made separate from Adam but was, essentially, Adam's clone. Adam and Eve were one. They were not two individuals joined together in some metaphysical sense. They were one. The actions of one implicated the other. The human race fell when Eve fell, but it was that act also that guaranteed we could be saved. Because Eve had not heard the command from God her transgression was in not trusting her counterpart. Legally, one can only save or redeem his possession. If Eve had violated a clear command that God had given to her she would have rebelled and would no longer belong to God.

However, in refusing to consult her husband to resolve the apparent conflict introduced by the serpents wordss and deeds she introduced division where there had been unity or oneness. Again, the facts of the story support this conclusion. When God comes to the garden He is not angry with them. Further, each of the 'curses' he pronounces relate to Eve's relationship with Adam. Nothing can be clearer. The wonder is that we who have championed creation have ignored the essential truth of creation.
tall73 said:
Nor are we deceived when we decide to sin even today, over and over, even after we know better.
Would you hold a kidnap victim responsible for the lifestyle he adopted during his years of captivity? You have strayed from a divine sense of justice. I would ask you to consider that there is a difference between knowing unequivocally that something is wrong and knowing that something is wrong, and further there is a difference between something being prohibited and something being fatal to your existence. No rational being ever intentionally does what it knows is fatal to its existence.
 
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tall73

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Sorry, doesn't work still.


If we see a statement by Eve that God said not to eat from it, then I think ,given that they talked in the garden with Him, that it is safe to say he may have reiterated it. She doesn't state "Adam said it" she said God said it. So she was not unclear on what was required.

And Adam was not deceived, as Paul states, and I see no evidence at all that Adam would have to be lost if he had not eaten of it.

Romans 5 seems to trace the fall to Adam, not to Eve. Of course, your real problem with Paul is you don't WANT to believe what he says.


As to woobadooba's statement, no it is not different. You are extrapolating from creation. But not even the created order, as you usually say, but from the creation account. Which is a result of the same revelation you reject in seemingly every other case. And it is the very thing you refuse to accept in the clear statements about our default condition. It is one thing to say that there are human elements in inspired writings. It is quite another to deny all those except the ones you really like, which seems to be the case at times. Your way of assessing scripture lacks consistency.
 
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payattention

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tall73 said:
Sorry, doesn't work still.


If we see a statement by Eve that God said not to eat from it, then I think ,given that they talked in the garden with Him, that it is safe to say he may have reiterated it. She doesn't state "Adam said it" she said God said it. So she was not unclear on what was required.
Then you do not believe she was deceived. That's fine with me. Only note that it nullifies the entire plan of salvation for you cannot redeem a rebel.
 
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