What is one thing Yeshua can do that no one else can?

[Runningman]

What is one thing Yeshua can do that no one else can?

Miracles?
John 14:12
12“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Walk on water?
Matthew 14:29
29So He said, “Come.” And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.

Raise the dead?
Acts 20:9-10
9And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. 10But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, “Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him.”

Sit on the throne?
Revelation 3:21
21To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Judge?
1 Corinthians 6:2
2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Forgive sins?
John 20:23
23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Be an heir of God?
Romans 8:17
17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

 

[Siodoryn]

Jesus Saves.

Why are you labeled Christian while posting in Exploring Christianity.

As to you previous posting titled, "Why does the Gospel contain nothing about believing Yeshua is God":

Hebrews 1:8
"But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom."

What is your purpose here?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Almighty King of the Universe, the Eternal God, Who is only-begotten of the Father, begotten in eternity as God of God, of the same Being as the Father. Through Him all things were made; for by Him and for Him were all things made, He is before all things, He is after all things. He suffered for the sins of the world, bore the weight of death and judgment on the cross, in order that all which He has might be ours by grace.

It is only because of Him, that we can be called children of God; for we are united with Him by grace.
It is only because of Him, that He having life of Himself, that He gives life to His Church and through His Church miracles are wrought, sins are declared forgiven, and the estranged sinners of the world are born again by the power of grace.
It is only because of Him, that the dead shall be raised.

Nobody else can be or do that. He is Himself, alone, true and only-begotten Son of the Father, Eternal and Divine Word of the Father. He is the one unique God-Man.

He is Jesus Christ, and He is Lord of all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus Saves.

Why are you labeled Christian while posting in Exploring Christianity.

As to you previous posting titled, "Why does the Gospel contain nothing about believing Yeshua is God":

Hebrews 1:8
"But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom."

What is your purpose here?

They want to debate orthodox Christianity and promote their unorthdoox unitarian views; but they can't do that so they are pretending to be a seeker asking questions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Siodoryn]

They want to debate orthodox Christianity and promote their unorthdoox unitarian views; but they can't do that so they are pretending to be a seeker asking questions.

-CryptoLutheran

It matters not how divergent someone may be in their views of the Bible; they will not be unwelcome on this site.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus Saves.

Why are you labeled Christian while posting in Exploring Christianity.

As to you previous posting titled, "Why does the Gospel contain nothing about believing Yeshua is God":

Hebrews 1:8
"But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom."

What is your purpose here?

Please don’t derail the subject of this thread.

Read Psalms 45 where Hebrews 1:8 is about a human king.

 

[Runningman]

The Almighty King of the Universe, the Eternal God, Who is only-begotten of the Father, begotten in eternity as God of God, of the same Being as the Father. Through Him all things were made; for by Him and for Him were all things made, He is before all things, He is after all things. He suffered for the sins of the world, bore the weight of death and judgment on the cross, in order that all which He has might be ours by grace.

It is only because of Him, that we can be called children of God; for we are united with Him by grace.
It is only because of Him, that He having life of Himself, that He gives life to His Church and through His Church miracles are wrought, sins are declared forgiven, and the estranged sinners of the world are born again by the power of grace.
It is only because of Him, that the dead shall be raised.

Nobody else can be or do that. He is Himself, alone, true and only-begotten Son of the Father, Eternal and Divine Word of the Father. He is the one unique God-Man.

He is Jesus Christ, and He is Lord of all.

-CryptoLutheran

That’s not scriptural. Can you quote a single verse that says what you believe?

 

[Siodoryn]

Please don’t derail the subject of this thread.

Read Psalms 45 where Hebrews 1:8 is about a human king.

No one but Jesus can facilitate our salvation. How on earth is that a derailment. Are you actually Christian?

 

[ViaCrucis]

That’s not scriptural. Can you quote a single verse that says what you believe?

Sure.

The Almighty King of the Universe,

"I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:13-16

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The One sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns, and He has a name written that no one knows but Himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linens, white and pure, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On His robe and on His thigh has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords." - Revelation 19:11-16

the Eternal God,

"'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'" - Revelation 1:8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." - Revelation 22:13

"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, 'Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.'" - Revelation 1:17-18

"Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last and there is no God besides Me.'" - Isaiah 44:6

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.'" - Isaiah 48:12

Who is only-begotten of the Father,

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1:14

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever trusts in Him shall not perish, but have life everlasting." - John 3:16

begotten in eternity as God of God, of the same Being as the Father.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." - John 1:1

"But of the Son He says, 'Your Throne O God is forever and ever, the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beyond Your companions.'" - Hebrews 1:8-9

"It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we wait the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." - Titus 2:12-13

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the Church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." - Acts 20:28

Through Him all things were made; for by Him and for Him were all things made, He is before all things, He is after all things.

"And, 'You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands; they will perish but You remain; they will wear out like a garment, like a robe You will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will have no end.'" - Hebrews 1:10-12

"All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." - John 1:3

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the Head of the body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, wehther on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." - Colossians 1:15-20

He suffered for the sins of the world, bore the weight of death and judgment on the cross, in order that all which He has might be ours by grace.

"But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fittng that He, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why He is not ashamed to call them brothers," - Hebrews 2:9-11

"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." - Hebrews 2:14-15

"I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem those who were under the Law, so that we might receive adoptions as children. And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!' So you are no longer a slave, but a child, and if a child, then an heir through God." - Galatians 4:1-7

"For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of GOd and joint-heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him." - Romans 8:15-17

It is only because of Him, that we can be called children of God; for we are united with Him by grace.

See again Galatians 4:1-7 and Romans 8:15-17 quoted above.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according tot he purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." - Ephesians 1:3-14

It is only because of Him, that He having life of Himself, that He gives life to His Church and through His Church miracles are wrought, sins are declared forgiven, and the estranged sinners of the world are born again by the power of grace.
It is only because of Him, that the dead shall be raised.

See Colossians 1:15-20 quoted above.

"But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a Man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:20-22

"But to all who did receive Him, who trusted in His name, He gave the right to become children of GOd, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

Nobody else can be or do that. He is Himself, alone, true and only-begotten Son of the Father, Eternal and Divine Word of the Father. He is the one unique God-Man.

He is Jesus Christ, and He is Lord of all.

"This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the Cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." - Acts 4:11-12

Is this sufficient, or would you prefer more?

-CryptoLUtheran

 

[Runningman]

Sure.



"I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:13-16

This is referring to God since God is the King of kings and Lord of lords. You can fact check this with the Bible because God is immortal, Yeshua isn't hence why he died and needed God to save him. On this verse the NKJV isn't the best translation. Furthermore, we know it's God who brings Yeshua.

Hebrews 5
7who, in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of his godly fear,

1 Thess. 4:14
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who sleep in Jesus.

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The One sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns, and He has a name written that no one knows but Himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linens, white and pure, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On His robe and on His thigh has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords." - Revelation 19:11-16

This is referring to God, not Yeshua. For starters, He has a name written that one knows but Himself. We know that Yeshua is not omniscient, meaning that if he knew something then God would know what it is, but Yeshua doesn't know all that God knows.

Matthew 24
36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Two, His name is the word of God. If you'll read John 1:1 you'll see the word is God, not Yeshua.

Three, it says He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. God treads His own winepress:

Isaiah 63:3
3“I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.

Four, goes without saying that Yeshua is never referred to as King of kings and Lord or lords.

"'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'" - Revelation 1:8

That's a quote by God, not Yeshua.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." - Revelation 22:13

The chapter doesn't say that is Yeshua talking. Look again:

Revelation 22:12-13
12“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Notice the one who will give each one according to their work. That's God, not Yeshua.

Romans 2:5-6
5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, 'Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.'" - Revelation 1:17-18

Being first and last isn't an indicator of deity. It refers to uniqueness. Also, God can't die like Yeshua did.

"Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last and there is no God besides Me.'" - Isaiah 44:6

As I already said, first and last refers to uniqueness. He plainly told you there is no God beside Him. Furthermore, Yeshua doesn't have the name of God. These are distinctly different persons.

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.'" - Isaiah 48:12

See above.

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1:14

John 1:1 says the word is God. John 1:14 says Yeshua was begotten by God so he had a beginning point.

Hebrews 1:5
5For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

Furthermore, you should read 1 John 1 which clarifies it even more. The "word of life" at the beginning is something they could hear, see, and touch. It wasn't at the literal beginning of creation because they didn't exist then to hear or see it.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever trusts in Him shall not perish, but have life everlasting." - John 3:16

Yes, God is calling the shots and sent Yeshua.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." - John 1:1

Says the word is God, not Yeshua.

"But of the Son He says, 'Your Throne O God is forever and ever, the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beyond Your companions.'" - Hebrews 1:8-9

Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quote to Psalm 45 where it refers to a human king with a wife. People of high standing, kings etc, are sometimes called gods in the Bible. Thus, the correct translation for Hebrews 1:8-9 is a lowercase g. Hint: God does not have a God or that would refute the Trinity anyway.

"It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we wait the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." - Titus 2:12-13

"Great God and Savior Jesus" are two different persons. The context is about their appearing so 1 Thess. 4:14 makes it clear God will bring with Yeshua those who fell asleep.

"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the Church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." - Acts 20:28

God doesn't have blood. The correct translation is this:

Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God's church. It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son.

"And, 'You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands; they will perish but You remain; they will wear out like a garment, like a robe You will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will have no end.'" - Hebrews 1:10-12

Not Yeshua.

"All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." - John 1:3

Only the church was made through Christ.

Hebrews 1
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the Head of the body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, wehther on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." - Colossians 1:15-20

Doesn't say he's God.

"But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fittng that He, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why He is not ashamed to call them brothers," - Hebrews 2:9-11

Made lower than the angels and wasn't inherently perfect. He had to be perfected.

"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." - Hebrews 2:14-15

Removed from all context. Try reading it.

"I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem those who were under the Law, so that we might receive adoptions as children. And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!' So you are no longer a slave, but a child, and if a child, then an heir through God." - Galatians 4:1-7

"God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,"

God isn't the one He sent. God doesn't have a human mother because He's eternal.

"For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of GOd and joint-heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him." - Romans 8:15-17

It only shows we can have what Yeshua has and that being an heir isn't something that identifies him as God.

See again Galatians 4:1-7 and Romans 8:15-17 quoted above.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according tot he purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." - Ephesians 1:3-14

Did you read what you pasted?

""Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, "

See Colossians 1:15-20 quoted above.

"But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a Man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:20-22

God raised Yeshua from the dead.

"But to all who did receive Him, who trusted in His name, He gave the right to become children of GOd, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

God did it, not Yeshua.

"This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the Cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." - Acts 4:11-12

Yes, the name he was "given." He didn't have it until it was given to him.

Is this sufficient, or would you prefer more?

-CryptoLUtheran

I would like even one, clear, unambiguous, explicit, undeniable claim by Yeshua or anyone else that he is God. I also want them to be consistent. They called him a man, God's Son, decades after his ascension. You can't provide this so I have no reason to believe as you do.

 

[Runningman]

Is this sufficient, or would you prefer more?

-CryptoLUtheran

My turn:

God is not a man:

1. “God is not a man” – Numbers 23:19
2. “For I am God, and not man,” – Hosea 11:9

Yeshua is called a man many times:

1. “a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” – John 8:40
2. “a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.” – Acts 2:22
3. “He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed.” – Acts 17:31
4. “the man Christ Jesus,” – 1 Timothy 2:5

God is not a son of man:

1. “God is not a man…or a son of man,” – Numbers 23:19

The Bible calls Yeshua “the son of man”:

1. “so the Son of Man will be” – Matthew 12:40
2. “For the Son of Man will come” – Matthew 16:27
3. “the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” – Matthew 16:28

“Son of man” is used to refer to people:

1. “the son of man, who is but a worm!” – Job 25:6
2. “the son of man You have raised up for Yourself.” – Psalm 80:17
3. “O LORD, what is man, that You regard him, the son of man that You think of him?” – Psalm 144:3
4. “Son of man,” He said to me, “stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.” – Ezekiel 2:1

Yeshua denied being God:

1. “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone” – Luke 18:19
2. “Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good.” – Matthew 19:17

Contrary to the accusations of blasphemy against him, Yeshua said he is a man:
1. “you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” – John 8:40

God is greater than Yeshua:

1. “the Father is greater than I.” – John 14:28
2. “My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all.” – John 10:29

Yeshua never instructed anyone to worship him:

1. “When you pray, say: ‘Father, hallowed be Your name.” – Luke 11:2
2. “in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.” – John 16:23
3. “the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.” John 4:23

Yeshua worshipped the Only True God:

1. “ that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” John 17:3
2. “He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.” – Luke 6:12
3. “the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve,” – Matthew 20:28

Yeshua prayed to God:

1. “He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed,” – Matthew 26:39
2. “in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,” – Hebrews 5:7

The disciples did not believe Yeshua is God:

1. “Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know” – Acts 2:22
2. “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, “ – Acts 3:13
3. “God, having raised up His Servant Jesus” – Acts 3:26

The disciples prayed to God:

1. “they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,” – Acts 4:24
2. “ Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed,” – Acts 4:27
3. “Your holy Servant Jesus.” – Acts 4:30

Yeshua is God’s servant:
1. ““Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!” – Matthew 12:18

Yeshua cannot do anything of himself:

1. “the Son can do nothing of Himself,” – John 5:19
2. “I can of Myself do nothing.” – John 5:30

Yeshua did not consider himself equal with God:

1. “Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.” – Matthew 9:8

 

[Runningman]

No one but Jesus can facilitate our salvation. How on earth is that a derailment. Are you actually Christian?

You didn't even address the OP, you're asking me questions about other things.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is referring to God since God is the King of kings and Lord of lords. You can fact check this with the Bible because God is immortal, Yeshua isn't hence why he died and needed God to save him. On this verse the NKJV isn't the best translation. Furthermore, we know it's God who brings Yeshua.

Hebrews 5
7who, in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of his godly fear,

1 Thess. 4:14
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who sleep in Jesus.

This is referring to God, not Yeshua. For starters, He has a name written that one knows but Himself. We know that Yeshua is not omniscient, meaning that if he knew something then God would know what it is, but Yeshua doesn't know all that God knows.

Matthew 24
36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Two, His name is the word of God. If you'll read John 1:1 you'll see the word is God, not Yeshua.

Three, it says He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. God treads His own winepress:

Isaiah 63:3
3“I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.

Four, goes without saying that Yeshua is never referred to as King of kings and Lord or lords.

That's a quote by God, not Yeshua.

The chapter doesn't say that is Yeshua talking. Look again:

Revelation 22:12-13
12“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Notice the one who will give each one according to their work. That's God, not Yeshua.

Romans 2:5-6
5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

Being first and last isn't an indicator of deity. It refers to uniqueness. Also, God can't die like Yeshua did.


As I already said, first and last refers to uniqueness. He plainly told you there is no God beside Him. Furthermore, Yeshua doesn't have the name of God. These are distinctly different persons.


See above.

John 1:1 says the word is God. John 1:14 says Yeshua was begotten by God so he had a beginning point.

Hebrews 1:5
5For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

Furthermore, you should read 1 John 1 which clarifies it even more. The "word of life" at the beginning is something they could hear, see, and touch. It wasn't at the literal beginning of creation because they didn't exist then to hear or see it.

Yes, God is calling the shots and sent Yeshua.


Says the word is God, not Yeshua.

Hebrews 1:8-9 is a quote to Psalm 45 where it refers to a human king with a wife. People of high standing, kings etc, are sometimes called gods in the Bible. Thus, the correct translation for Hebrews 1:8-9 is a lowercase g. Hint: God does not have a God or that would refute the Trinity anyway.

"Great God and Savior Jesus" are two different persons. The context is about their appearing so 1 Thess. 4:14 makes it clear God will bring with Yeshua those who fell asleep.

God doesn't have blood. The correct translation is this:

Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God's church. It is the flock he bought with the blood of his own Son.

Not Yeshua.

Only the church was made through Christ.

Hebrews 1
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

Doesn't say he's God.

Made lower than the angels and wasn't inherently perfect. He had to be perfected.

Removed from all context. Try reading it.

"God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,"

God isn't the one He sent. God doesn't have a human mother because He's eternal.

It only shows we can have what Yeshua has and that being an heir isn't something that identifies him as God.


Did you read what you pasted?

""Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, "

God raised Yeshua from the dead.

God did it, not Yeshua.

Yes, the name he was "given." He didn't have it until it was given to him.

I would like even one, clear, unambiguous, explicit, undeniable claim by Yeshua or anyone else that he is God. I also want them to be consistent. They called him a man, God's Son, decades after his ascension. You can't provide this so I have no reason to believe as you do.

You've done a rather subpar job of dismissing Scripture. You have to deny that Jesus is the Word, in spite of the fact that He is called the Word explicitly. You have to deny that the One who comes on a white horse in the Apocalypse is Jesus, even though, it explicitly is.

"From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." - Revelation 22:15

Compare:

"She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne," - Revelation 12:5

"I will tell of the decree: YHWH said to Me, 'You are My Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of Me, and I will make the nations Your heritage, and the ends of the earth Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'" - Psalm 2:7-9

Now, perhaps you'd like to try and dismiss these as well, perhaps the male child isn't Jesus, maybe God the Father was a male child and was caught up to God and His throne. In spite of the fact that Hebrews 1 quotes the Psalm 2 in reference to Christ, and you even acknowledged that "today I have begotten you" is a reference to Christ in this post I'm quoting--perhaps you'll now back peddle that.

So who is the rider on the white horse? Is it the Messiah who rules with a rod of iron and treads the winepress of God's wrath, or not?

You can dismiss as much as you want. But anyone else is free to look at what I've posted, whether they are Christians or otherwise, and they'll easily judge for themselves.

I hold to no fantasy that I'll convince you of anything. But hopefully there might be spectators on this thread who will benefit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Runningman]

You've done a rather subpar job of dismissing Scripture. You have to deny that Jesus is the Word, in spite of the fact that He is called the Word explicitly. You have to deny that the One who comes on a white horse in the Apocalypse is Jesus, even though, it explicitly is.

It seems you have no sense of direction in the Bible. It's just you interpret everything to mean Yeshua is God, but haven't done any digging or read any information to the contrary. You ignored most of what I wrote, presumably because it is irrefutable.

"From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." - Revelation 22:15

It's God. God has an iron scepter as well. Not a literal iron scepter I believe, but it's a symbol of power, authority. There's a divine hierarchy and you'll soon see how the saints play into this hierarchy.

The single point of having the iron scepter isn't all you should look at and read the exegesis I provided you about the multitude of other reasons why the rider on the white horse is actually God, not Yeshua.

Compare:

"She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne," - Revelation 12:5

Yeshua with an iron scepter is not something uniquely his. Those who overcome will also receive an iron scepter from God. The iron scepter Yeshua received came from God and is for those who overcome; it's symbolic of power over the nations.

Revelation 2:26-27
26And he who overcomes, and keeps my works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father;

"I will tell of the decree: YHWH said to Me, 'You are My Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of Me, and I will make the nations Your heritage, and the ends of the earth Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'" - Psalm 2:7-9

Now, perhaps you'd like to try and dismiss these as well, perhaps the male child isn't Jesus, maybe God the Father was a male child and was caught up to God and His throne. In spite of the fact that Hebrews 1 quotes the Psalm 2 in reference to Christ, and you even acknowledged that "today I have begotten you" is a reference to Christ in this post I'm quoting--perhaps you'll now back peddle that.

Read Revelation 2:26-27 it isn't something unique to Yeshua, but rather something the multitude of saints will receive. This point also exposes your false doctrine of deifying Yeshua.

So who is the rider on the white horse? Is it the Messiah who rules with a rod of iron and treads the winepress of God's wrath, or not?

This is referring to God, not Yeshua. For starters, He has a name written that one knows but Himself. We know that Yeshua is not omniscient, meaning that if he knew something then God would know what it is, but Yeshua doesn't know all that God knows.

Matthew 24
36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Two, His name is the word of God. If you'll read John 1:1 you'll see the word is God, not Yeshua.

Three, it says He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. God treads His own winepress:

Isaiah 63:3
3“I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.

Four, goes without saying that Yeshua is never referred to as King of kings and Lord or lords.

You can dismiss as much as you want. But anyone else is free to look at what I've posted, whether they are Christians or otherwise, and they'll easily judge for themselves.

Yes and they will hopefully be steered far and wide away from your false doctrine that Yeshua is God.

I hold to no fantasy that I'll convince you of anything. But hopefully there might be spectators on this thread who will benefit.

-CryptoLutheran

Ditto.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It seems you have no sense of direction in the Bible. It's just you interpret everything to mean Yeshua is God, but haven't done any digging or read any information to the contrary. You ignored most of what I wrote, presumably because it is irrefutable.

I get that this is goading, and that I shouldn't even bother. But ignoring your ad hominem remarks, if you--or anyone--really bothers to look at my post in question it's very obvious that I wasn't just quoting a bunch of passages and saying "Jesus is God". I was breaking down my previous post into chunks, and then providing a biblical basis for my assertion. So, for example, when I said that in Christ alone is salvation, I quoted Scripture that says in Christ alone is salvation. I didn't quote those passages because "Jesus is God", I quoted relevant biblical material in regard to the various statements I had made before.

It's God. God has an iron scepter as well. Not a literal iron scepter I believe, but it's a symbol of power, authority. There's a divine hierarchy and you'll soon see how the saints play into this hierarchy.

The single point of having the iron scepter isn't all you should look at and read the exegesis I provided you about the multitude of other reasons why the rider on the white horse is actually God, not Yeshua.


Yeshua with an iron scepter is not something uniquely his. Those who overcome will also receive an iron scepter from God. The iron scepter Yeshua received came from God and is for those who overcome; it's symbolic of power over the nations.

Revelation 2:26-27
26And he who overcomes, and keeps my works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father;



Read Revelation 2:26-27 it isn't something unique to Yeshua, but rather something the multitude of saints will receive. This point also exposes your false doctrine of deifying Yeshua.

Even if someone doesn't want to believe Jesus is God, it is plainly obvious that the figure who rides on a white horse, who is coming in judgment, is Jesus. You have painted yourself in a corner by simply making an untrue statement that Jesus isn't the King of kings and Lord of lords, and now you don't have an exit strategy, so you are doubling down.

It would have made far more sense for you to instead have tried to make an argument that Jesus can be King of kings and Lord of lords without necessarily having to be God. You could still, of course, save face and do that. But it appears that this is a hill you are willing to die on. Though I'm not sure why. And note, I am not attacking your person, I am critiquing your methodology and arguments. Though I am questioning, and genuinely perplexed, why you'd make such an obvious gaff and then stick to it.

This is referring to God, not Yeshua. For starters, He has a name written that one knows but Himself. We know that Yeshua is not omniscient, meaning that if he knew something then God would know what it is, but Yeshua doesn't know all that God knows.

Matthew 24
36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

Two, His name is the word of God. If you'll read John 1:1 you'll see the word is God, not Yeshua.

Three, it says He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. God treads His own winepress:

Isaiah 63:3
3“I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.

Four, goes without saying that Yeshua is never referred to as King of kings and Lord or lords.

Yes and they will hopefully be steered far and wide away from your false doctrine that Yeshua is God.

Ditto.

Is Jesus present at all in John's Apocalypse? For example, when in Revelation 22 we see the words, "I, Jesus" is that Jesus, or is that also God the Father? Since, as you've stated, Revelation 22 doesn't have Jesus in it, and so it can't be Jesus who is Alpha and Omega.

Perhaps it's just a nonsequitur? Like the way it is apparently a non-sequitur for the author of Hebrews to be talking about Jesus, but as soon as they quote that the Lord laid the foundations of the earth, it's no longer about Jesus?

Perhaps it's like how you have to insist that when it is written, "all things in heaven and on earth" were created by Jesus, it actually means--though it's not anywhere in the text--that Jesus only created the Church. Apparently the Church is now "all things in heaven and one earth". Though, I must admit, at least the Jehovah's Witnesses have the good decency to change the words of the text to say "all other things", because adding that, while disingenuous, doesn't require a total dismissal of the text.

Now, you may be right, your points are completely irrefutable. And you are simply showcasing your capacity for humility and modesty when engaging in a debate.

-CryptoLutheran

 

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