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The letter of saint Clement of Rome is rock solid evidence.Based on that and the Britannica article, it seems there's no solid evidence of Peter being called the bishop of Rome during his lifetime. Even paragraph 424 of the CCC goes against the primacy of Peter. The whole idea is obviously a tradition that started way after Peter’s lifetime.
Unless you have some rock hard empirical evidence you've been withholding.
The Catholic Church doesn’t believe they have to rely on the testimony of scripture for their doctrines. They believe they can make up whatever they want and then expect you to believe it.That wasn't an opinion. It was a clarification of what was said.
WHEN did the church in Rome say that? That's essential in establishing Peter as the bishop of Rome.
Could you cite that please?The letter of saint Clement of Rome is rock solid evidence.
Your truth is not based on truth. God’s word is truth.Why not?
It's true, so why can't I state it?
Your statements above are in error.The Catholic Church doesn’t believe they have to rely on the testimony of scripture for their doctrines. They believe they can make up whatever they want and then expect you to believe it.
They don’t like people do rely on the scripture to teach them the truth.
I could but you can look it up. Why don't you do that?Could you cite that please?
Is there any point in your claims? Ultimately, what you have stated, means that if it is not in the bible it is not true.Your truth is not based on truth. God’s word is truth.
Based on my extensive debates with Catholics regarding certain RCC traditions, the statement is accurate enough.Your statements above are in error.
I'm on my phone at work. Looking stuff up is difficult. Could you just please cite it please?I could but you can look it up. Why don't you do that?
Based on fact and history it is not accurate.Based on my extensive debates with Catholics regarding certain RCC traditions, the statement is accurate enough.
I think you can wait until you're in a better place. The letter of saint Clement of Rome is almost 2,000 years old, it will be there later today.I'm on my phone at work. Looking stuff up is difficult. Could you just please cite it please?
So you can not provide citation for your claim. It's obviously false, because if what you claimed is true, we wouldn't be having this debate.I think you can wait until you're in a better place. The letter of saint Clement of Rome is almost 2,000 years old, it will be there later today.
The logic in your statement is absurd, I cannot help but laugh at it.So you can not provide citation for your claim. It's obviously false, because if what you claimed is true, we wouldn't be having this debate.
I cannot help but laugh at your blatant evasiveness.The logic in your statement is absurd, I cannot help but laugh at it.
its no small matter to claim Peter was the first Pope and supreme head of the church and that when he retired or died another Pope would have been elected.Is there any point in your claims? Ultimately, what you have stated, means that if it is in in the bible it is not true.
Xeno says the letter of saint Clement of Rome is rock solid evidence of Peter being the first bishop of Rome (first Pope). I'm sure evidence of that claim will be presented any minute now. And then we'll have to concede.its no small matter to claim Peter was the first Pope and supreme head of the church and that when he retired or died another Pope would have been elected.
Your tradition has Popes. A tradition doesn’t make something true.
Why can't you just put the reference with the quote? (OK, I understand, I usually don't remember the reference either, so it is a pain, but give and take!)Why is it that folk who claim this or that isn't in the bible don't look it up for themselves?
I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
[1Co 4:14-15 ESV]
Xeno says the letter of saint Clement of Rome is rock solid evidence of Peter being the first bishop of Rome (first Pope). I'm sure evidence of that claim will be presented any minute now. And then we'll have to concede.
Jesus, in words paralleling Isaiah 22 (as RileyG mentioned) that Jews of the day would have recognized, gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock (Peter). Of all of the Apostles, Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter alone. In Isaiah, a king gives the keys to the kingdom to his prime minister as a sign of authority. When the office of prime minister becomes vacant, a new prime minister is chosen.Apostles cannot be succeeded as in an "apostolic succession." An apostle could be "replaced," as in the case with Judas Iscariot. But an apostle could not be "succeeded," since founding the Church was a job that was completed by the original set of apostles.
That obviously was not written by Clement.
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