What Is Marriage?

[dayhiker]

Don't get me wrong! I firmly believe that church leaders ought to be above reproach, with the highest standards in marriage. However, should the church impose that high standard upon everyone in the laity too?

Is this church marriage a high standard or just a legal standard?

 

[Koey]

Is this church marriage a high standard or just a legal standard?

Good comment! I think the phrase "above reproach" applies to an elder in this situation, and let's face it, a defacto relationship may be arguably biblically allowable. However, it is reproached by many both within and outside the church. A "formal" marriage is reproached by few, and in my opinion, would be the best example for eldership.

 

[Koey]

What is marriage?
How can I say what marriage is, except within the confines of how I see and interpret it?
Marriages come with difficulties, yes, however, I should describe them, perhaps, from a theological perspective, rather than a secular perspective first. It is the secular perspective that makes your question difficult in some instances...

First, understand that I am Roman Catholic.

Marriage is a Sacramental Vocation to which people are called to share their lives together, and hopefully, bear children in.
It is a Sacrament like no other, in that it is a pre-existing social structure elevated to the force of a Sacrament by Jesus Christ.
It is the Vocation, the thermo-nuclear core of human existence, from which all other vocations derive and that all other vocation are called to serve.
What is the ordinary pinnacle of love in marriage? It is summed up in the common words of a man "Will you have my baby?" or a woman "Can I have your baby?," the words that reach deeply into the self giving character of the marital bond.

My intention in sharing this, is not to attempt to deflect every exception you can name, or argue about the Sacramental character of marriage, which I have done elsewhere. I thought only to give you some food for thought, if not as to what your own marriage is, but perhaps what the marriage of others ought to be, or what yours could aspire to be.

Love,
David

Hmmm! I respect the wonderful depth of theology that the Catholic Church has contributed to Christianity. Along with the Orthodox Church, there is some fantastic heritage from the 1st 1500 years especially.

I especially love the original, broader historic meaning of the word sacrament. I believe the Catholic Encyclopedia put it so wonderfully by saying that "all of life is a sacrament." The later, more narrow definition, that something is a sacrament because Jesus instituted it, is arguable and most of us Protestants would only believe that two of the 7 sacraments are provably directly instituted by Christ. I personally believe, along with many ancient authorities, that we cannot limit sacraments to 7, but in that I use the simple and original definition of the term.

Using that simple definition then, is marriage not always a sacrament, whether or not it was "blessed" by a priest? Is it somehow less sacred because it was sealed in private apart from the church's "authority?"

 

[Ave Maria]

I'm cohabitating with my boyfriend and all I know is that a marriage ceremony isn't going to change a thing between us... except we'll get a bunch of presents and have some pictures to frame and hang on the wall I guess. Also my mother will stop pestering us to get married already.

The lifetime commitment is already there. We know we're not going anywhere. If that's not good enough for anyone else, well, I don't know what to tell them. I dare /anyone/ to suggest that we don't really love each other because we're not legally married yet. I know what I feel, and I know where this is going. I have prayed and prayed that my life would take the direction that it needed to take, and my prayers have been answered.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with cohabitating. I am sure that God already sees you as married in His eyes. My dad and step-mom have been cohabitating for over 10 years and I am certain that God sees them as married in His eyes even without the legal ceremony.

Marriage necessarily includes the open acceptance to life, that is the (reasonable) mutually desirable transmission of life.

No it doesn't. And I say that as a fellow Catholic.

It's a sex permit. The ceremony is whatever the state requires, I suppose.

I would say that marriage is much more than just a sex permit. In fact, it is a union between two people who love each other. In fact, I'd even venture to say that it is an eternal union between two people who love each other.

Isaac took Rebecca into a tent and that "married" them.

Ok, I am assuming that Isaac and Rebecca had sex when he took her into a tent. Therefore, does this mean that according to the Bible, one is married just by having sex?

 

[Silenus]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with cohabitating. I am sure that God already sees you as married in His eyes. My dad and step-mom have been cohabitating for over 10 years and I am certain that God sees them as married in His eyes even without the legal ceremony.

I question this. I agree that marriage ceremonies and eccentricities change by culture, but the Bible seems to clearly prohibit sex outside of marriage, and I'm assuming this is what is happening with co-habitation. I don’t think we can lightly toss off our cultural definitions just because they are elastic. Paul certainly doesn't. The bottom line is marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman for life. There may be eccentricities where a marriage ceremony is not appropriate or something different instead (location, money, etcetera) but I question the lack of desire to declare that commitment publically in the custom of the culture. It seems to be simple rebellion or avoidence. I guess, if they make a commitment and let their community hold them accountable to keep that commitment, then that is a marriage. But, why avoid the public declaration and the legal attachment? If you are committed, then this step seems natural and, since the church is the community that holds Christians accountable, wouldn’t it be natural to hold a ceremony or public declaration in front of the church?

 

[fated]

No it doesn't. And I say that as a fellow Catholic.

1643 "Conjugal love involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter—appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands indissolubility and faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility. In a word it is a question of the normal characteristics of all natural conjugal love, but with a new significance which not only purifies and strengthens them, but raises them to the extent of making them the expression of specifically Christian values."152

Emphasis theirs.

 

[Chajara]

I question this. I agree that marriage ceremonies and eccentricities change by culture, but the Bible seems to clearly prohibit sex outside of marriage, and I'm assuming this is what is happening with co-habitation. I don’t think we can lightly toss off our cultural definitions just because they are elastic. Paul certainly doesn't. The bottom line is marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman for life. There may be eccentricities where a marriage ceremony is not appropriate or something different instead (location, money, etcetera) but I question the lack of desire to declare that commitment publically in the custom of the culture. It seems to be simple rebellion or avoidence. I guess, if they make a commitment and let their community hold them accountable to keep that commitment, then that is a marriage. But, why avoid the public declaration and the legal attachment? If you are committed, then this step seems natural and, since the church is the community that holds Christians accountable, wouldn’t it be natural to hold a ceremony or public declaration in front of the church?

Both our families want a wedding, and we don't have the time or money to plan and have one right now. Right now, we are waiting for him to graduate and get a job, because once we know where he'll be working long term that's where we can move and start building our nest egg hardcore.

Please, do /not/ question our commitment. You can ask what our motives are, but I will not tolerate anyone suggesting that we don't really love each other or don't really want to be together and are only sharing an apartment for the purpose of boinking like two little rabbits. (Yes, I've heard it suggested before.)

 

[Silenus]

As per your response

Both our families want a wedding, and we don't have the time or money to plan and have one right now. Right now, we are waiting for him to graduate and get a job, because once we know where he'll be working long term that's where we can move and start building our nest egg hardcore.

Please, do /not/ question our commitment. You can ask what our motives are, but I will not tolerate anyone suggesting that we don't really love each other or don't really want to be together and are only sharing an apartment for the purpose of boinking like two little rabbits. (Yes, I've heard it suggested before.)

notice part of my response . . .

There may be eccentricities where a marriage ceremony is not appropriate or something different instead (location, money, etcetera) but I question the lack of desire to declare that commitment publically in the custom of the culture.

you sound like you might fall under the money category. However, why react with such overt defensiveness? I was asking what the motives would be, even as i allowed for the possibility that there were eccentricities in a circumstance that might be permissable. However, you should be happy when Christians question you, it's called accountability. You should tolerate someone questioning your commitment and your motives . . . and you should be prepared to be held accountable. If you think you are acting with a clear conscious with pure motives, make your case to your church (you have no obligation to make your case to me) and if they accept your situation, then good. If they question it, you should enter into dialogue and consider changing your mind.

There is a difference between accountability and judgementalism, and on an internet forum, there is a difference between judgementalism and stating an opinion. Hence the first sentence, "I question this."

 

[Chajara]

Please accept my apologies for sounding defensive. I've had to defend my relationship to a lot of really judgmental people (including family, which makes it worse) so I tend to jump to conclusions and get my hackles up. My relationship with my boyfriend is very, very important to me (Second only to my relationship with God, as a matter of fact) so I feel I have to defend its honor, I guess.

I have spoken with the pastor of the church we visit (though I wish we could be more involved in church life, but thanks to being forced to work weekends we can't.) and he is okay with our situation. Although to be quite blunt, it wouldn't matter if our church wasn't okay with it. I have prayed quite a bit about the situation I'm in, from the very beginning when I was depressed and unhappy and unfulfilled living with my mother and considering moving out, to meeting my boyfriend and deciding with God's guidance that a move to another state would be good for me (I needed to learn to work, and I needed an opportunity to have something to be proud of, i.e. my apartment.) to the present. God has led me to be where I am today, and I personally think that asking a bunch of other people who aren't involved in the relationship or my personal relationship with God is just a bad idea.

Right now we're just sort of laying low and waiting. Spring will come, Trevor will graduate and get a job, and then we will know where we'll be moving (Could be down the street, somewhere else in Milwaukee or a nearby town, or even to Chicago, we just don't know yet) and get established there. Soon after that a proposal for marriage will follow, I'm certain of it (because he's told me so.) Then we can have the wedding, get all weirded out over calling each other husband and wife (since that's about the only thing it's really going to change between us) and then I can start pestering him to have kids. (Mostly just to watch him squirm.)

I think we do okay for ourselves. Our relationship isn't about casual dating or sex or whatever some couples do, it's very very serious and it's about making a life for ourselves so we can be happy together. I guess if we could do it without living together it would be an option, but what would be the point? We enjoy each others' company even when we're together 24/7, so why not live together while waiting for the right time to make the marriage legal and throw the accompanying party? I just don't see a problem.

 

[Silenus]

I have spoken with the pastor of the church we visit (though I wish we could be more involved in church life, but thanks to being forced to work weekends we can't.) and he is okay with our situation. Although to be quite blunt, it wouldn't matter if our church wasn't okay with it. I have prayed quite a bit about the situation I'm in, from the very beginning when I was depressed and unhappy and unfulfilled living with my mother and considering moving out, to meeting my boyfriend and deciding with God's guidance that a move to another state would be good for me (I needed to learn to work, and I needed an opportunity to have something to be proud of, i.e. my apartment.) to the present. God has led me to be where I am today, and I personally think that asking a bunch of other people who aren't involved in the relationship or my personal relationship with God is just a bad idea.

With all respect you should reconsider this. The gospels and the epistles clearly put forth that we should hold each other accountable and that we should submit to the church, even at one point calling the church our mother. Jesus also lays out a very specific point by point methodology for resolving conflicts and keeping each other out of sin. I am glad that you have conducted your relationship under the full acceptance of your church body (as long as your church body submits to scripture.) But, the scripture is clear that our relationship with God is not just a personal relationship, it involves a covenant community that is interconnected and interdependent. All though we are different parts, we are all one body. Just some food for thought. If you want the scripture I'm thinking of, I'll give it, but i prefer to give opinion before launching with scripture. It never seemed right to me to launch scripture at people I barely know.

 

[Koey]

Now may I throw in a red herring - a firfie - just to balance the discussion out and take a look at something from the other side?

Remember when Jesus met the woman at the well? He said to her that she had many husbands, but they were not her husbands, and even the man she was with now was not her husband.

How does that fit into our discussion?

 

[Chajara]

With all respect you should reconsider this. The gospels and the epistles clearly put forth that we should hold each other accountable and that we should submit to the church, even at one point calling the church our mother. Jesus also lays out a very specific point by point methodology for resolving conflicts and keeping each other out of sin. I am glad that you have conducted your relationship under the full acceptance of your church body (as long as your church body submits to scripture.) But, the scripture is clear that our relationship with God is not just a personal relationship, it involves a covenant community that is interconnected and interdependent. All though we are different parts, we are all one body. Just some food for thought. If you want the scripture I'm thinking of, I'll give it, but i prefer to give opinion before launching with scripture. It never seemed right to me to launch scripture at people I barely know.

Thing is, I haven't been able to really attend church due to an obnoxious work schedule and also the fact that the church I looked into doesn't have evening or Wednesday night services. I'm waiting for God to lead me to the right Church, so far no word. I assume this is because we're going to be led to a different area within the next few months. I'm okay with that.

I'm sure if God wanted me to be doing anything different He'd have let me know by now.

 

[Ave Maria]

1643 "Conjugal love involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter—appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands indissolubility and faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility. In a word it is a question of the normal characteristics of all natural conjugal love, but with a new significance which not only purifies and strengthens them, but raises them to the extent of making them the expression of specifically Christian values."152

Emphasis theirs.

If you haven't already guessed, I strongly disagree with many things that the Church officially teaches.

 

[Chajara]

Now may I throw in a red herring - a firfie - just to balance the discussion out and take a look at something from the other side?

Remember when Jesus met the woman at the well? He said to her that she had many husbands, but they were not her husbands, and even the man she was with now was not her husband.

How does that fit into our discussion?

Perhaps she was sleeping with them or keeping them around just for appearances' sake or something, but did not love them and was not committed.

I know people who get married just to have someone around to do chores around the house. My mother is one of them, unfortunately. :/ Perhaps this is what the woman was doing. Who knows?

 

[Silenus]

[QUOTEThing is, I haven't been able to really attend church due to an obnoxious work schedule and also the fact that the church I looked into doesn't have evening or Wednesday night services. I'm waiting for God to lead me to the right Church, so far no word. I assume this is because we're going to be led to a different area within the next few months. I'm okay with that.

I'm sure if God wanted me to be doing anything different He'd have let me know by now.][/QUOTE]

He already may have. God doesn't just speak through intuition. He also gave you the church and the scriptures. You can not rely soley on your intuitions to test if you are doing the will of God. Our faith is a communal thing, done within a covenant community, involving accountability and the scriptures. If you ignore church and scripture and rely only on prayerful intuition, you are missing many of the ways God speaks to us, in fact, the scriptures are the thing we use to "test the spirits," and I think that includes testing our intuitions. I am not saying this to lambast you about finding a church right now. I'm saying this to call into question that last sentence. Our relationship with God is not completely a solo venture. This is, I believe, a large error of the American evangelical churches. If you don't mind me prying, how do you engage in Christian community and communal worship absent a church? Realise I am not asking this questions as bait for a trap, just curious. I was in a similar situation earlier and had trouble finding a means to engage in that which I was called and desired to do.

 

[Silenus]

Now may I throw in a red herring - a firfie - just to balance the discussion out and take a look at something from the other side?

Remember when Jesus met the woman at the well? He said to her that she had many husbands, but they were not her husbands, and even the man she was with now was not her husband.

How does that fit into our discussion?

I don't think it does. Jesus was pointing out the woman's illagitiment marriages. They were not right because there were five of them and, as far as we can tell and assume from jesus' manner, they were not entered into, conducted, or ended righteously. They were not marriages conducted in spirit or in truth . . . so, being that the church is the bride, he then talks about how his church should conduct themselves in spirit and in truth in worship and community with her husband. Its all in the Biblical motif of men getting brides at wells (see Genesis and Exodus).

 

[Koey]

Hmmm, I don't read that into it. It just comes across as a woman who had 5 husbands, and is with one now. No further details are given, except that the ONE she has now is not her husband. It COULD, c-o-u-l-d mean that she did not have a formal marriage or committed relationship, but merely a cohabiting one. Of course, that is also not said, so it leaves many unanswered questions about this whole issue.

 

[Chajara]

He already may have. God doesn't just speak through intuition. He also gave you the church and the scriptures. You can not rely soley on your intuitions to test if you are doing the will of God. Our faith is a communal thing, done within a covenant community, involving accountability and the scriptures. If you ignore church and scripture and rely only on prayerful intuition, you are missing many of the ways God speaks to us, in fact, the scriptures are the thing we use to "test the spirits," and I think that includes testing our intuitions. I am not saying this to lambast you about finding a church right now. I'm saying this to call into question that last sentence. Our relationship with God is not completely a solo venture. This is, I believe, a large error of the American evangelical churches. If you don't mind me prying, how do you engage in Christian community and communal worship absent a church? Realise I am not asking this questions as bait for a trap, just curious. I was in a similar situation earlier and had trouble finding a means to engage in that which I was called and desired to do.

To answer your question, I have never felt particularly comfortable worshiping in a church. The singing, hand waving, praying out loud, and other things are fine if other people are doing them but when I am pressured to do the same I feel very uncomfortable. My spirituality is just very personal to me I guess.

I've found that I feel God's presence most when I'm out communing with nature. I can sit in a church and listen to a message and that's great, but then if I go out into the quiet forest afterward and just sit and ponder it, that's when I feel close to God. That's when I worship. I've always done it by myself, and it feels completely wrong to do it in front of other people. I don't know why, perhaps it's just my personality combined with my vast love for the Earth. But I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm happier without being extensively involved in a church.

Of course, that could just be God providing for me for now. Once we get settled in where we're supposed to be and God provides us a good church, I'll probably feel the pull to go more often and feel less satisfied with solo worship.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

 

[Silenus]

To answer your question, I have never felt particularly comfortable worshiping in a church. The singing, hand waving, praying out loud, and other things are fine if other people are doing them but when I am pressured to do the same I feel very uncomfortable. My spirituality is just very personal to me I guess.

There are other forms of worship . . . High church litergy has always sat nicely with me when feeling overly hand clapped . . .

I've found that I feel God's presence most when I'm out communing with nature. I can sit in a church and listen to a message and that's great, but then if I go out into the quiet forest afterward and just sit and ponder it, that's when I feel close to God. That's when I worship. I've always done it by myself, and it feels completely wrong to do it in front of other people. I don't know why, perhaps it's just my personality combined with my vast love for the Earth. But I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm happier without being extensively involved in a church.

Of course, that could just be God providing for me for now. Once we get settled in where we're supposed to be and God provides us a good church, I'll probably feel the pull to go more often and feel less satisfied with solo worship

I'd encourage you, however, to remember that Jesus never presented a relationship with Him as an individual thing. It is always presented as something that takes place in a church body, in fellowship with other believers. That it is detrimental to be severed from the body. Perhaps you are right that you are being extended grace for a time, but nature as church is not how Jesus taught us to worship him. We are to be one as he and the father are one.

Anyway, I'm always reminded that our picture of heaven is the body of Christ worshipping together.

 

[OllieFranz]

In the late middle ages marriage was already quite a christian ritual, however it started out with merely a sort of "informal marriage contract" between families, with initially no involvement of the church.

Actually it was originally a very formal contract, involving a bride price, a dowery, and clearly defined terms for dissolution (divorce). But a private one between the groom and the bride and/or the father of one or both, neither involving the government nor the religious authorities. The government was the first to get invoved, in early historic times, and originally only as an arbiter when one or both sides broke the terms of the contract.

The Church did not get involved until the Middle Ages, and then partly because it had become an arm of the government, which, among other secular duties, recorded births, deaths and other vital statistics, and partially because people wanted God's blessing on their marriage.