what is loyalty?

[PsychoSarah]

I like your style. The Greek and roman gods are also great examples of one way loyalty. The question would be, is it really loyalty when it only goes one way? That sounds more like slavery to me. But maybe that's as good as loyalty gets on a human level where people are the ones inventing/imagining the system.

How would you say the Norse compare in terms of setting the stage for understanding loyalty?

It is really rather interesting. Don't get me wrong, the Vikings were a rather violent people, but their sort of worship was more in line to preparing themselves to aid their gods in battle than to just be serviced by them. In contrast, Greek/Roman gods were extremely biased and self centered, and people worshipped them hoping to be ignored more than supported by them, particularly in the case of Hades. They were unforgiving powerful beings that would destroy people over the smallest things, so worship was more an act of self preservation than reverence. They both lie at the extremes, with Norse gods being what I consider to be the most selfless pantheon of deities overall, with worshippers who help them out of a desire to help rather than any obligation, and with the Greek/Roman pantheon to be the most selfish pantheon of gods, whose worshippers lived in absolute terror of. Loyalty gained through different means. And to clarify, I am excluding explicitly evil deities from this evaluation, because they either weren't worshipped or were worshipped with the intent of setting misfortune.

 

[sarxweh]

Loyalty is more than that. To pledge loyalty to something is to stake your honor on it, to align yourself with it come heaven or high water.

"If Christ was not raised, we are of all men the most pitiable."

So you see loyalty as an intentional alignment with something above and outside of 'you'. And that loyalty means to do this automatically once you've decided. I like that definition.

Perhaps loyalty is like climbing on a cruise ship. Because not all cruise ships hit icebergs and sink we can say that getting on a safe ship is an act of self interest. But I'm just not sure that self interest is required in order to have 'loyalty'.

If I am loyal to get safe travel (honor), is that really loyalty to the Titanic? Wouldn't loyalty where my honor is invested be merely loyalty to myself?

 

[PsychoSarah]

"If Christ was not raised, we are of all men the most pitiable."

So you see loyalty as an intentional alignment with something above and outside of 'you'. And that loyalty means to do this automatically once you've decided. I like that definition.

Perhaps loyalty is like climbing on a cruise ship. Because not all cruise ships hit icebergs and sink we can say that getting on a safe ship is an act of self interest. But I'm just not sure that self interest is required to get loyalty.

If I am loyal to get safe travel (honor), is that really loyalty to the Titanic? Wouldn't loyalty where my honor is invested be merely loyalty to myself?

Everyone is loyal to themselves to some extent. I view loyalty as a commitment more than anything else, and while that might seem a bit vague, it does require context generally as a concept to be understood in detail. Loyalty to the person you are married to and loyalty to one's country obviously aren't expressed in the same way, but the basic ties are the same.

 

[sarxweh]

Commitment! That's probably the best answer yet.

Its funny how simple something can be and how much stuff there is to say about it at the same time

 

[PsychoSarah]

Commitment! That's probably the best answer yet.

Its funny how simple something can be and how much stuff there is to say about it at the same time

The simplest concepts can sometimes require the most complex explanations. Gosh, have you seen how long the definition of "the" is? Ironic that you like my explanation, seeing as I view commitment in certain contexts as a negative trait.

 

[sarxweh]

The simplest concepts can sometimes require the most complex explanations. Gosh, have you seen how long the definition of "the" is? Ironic that you like my explanation, seeing as I view commitment in certain contexts as a negative trait.

The 'what' of loyalty. Yep. But the question is, like defining "the", are the common uses of 'loyalty' even legitimate? Shouldn't loyalty get an objective meaning like 'the'? Or if not, then why not?

 

[PsychoSarah]

The 'what' of loyalty. Yep. But the question is, like defining "the", are the common uses of 'loyalty' even legitimate? Shouldn't loyalty get an objective meaning like 'the'? Or if not, then why not?

Loyalty has a small degree of subjectivity, but not a whole lot. It likely has many definitions because of the variety of situations it can apply to rather than it actually having many different meanings. But if you wanted a dictionary definition of loyalty, you would have just googled it

 

[sarxweh]

Well, also a definition has a rationale behind it which is the only way a single word like commitment makes sense. By its own nature, a summary should never stand alone

 

[sarxweh]

Also loyalty is a bit more conceptual than 'the'. Not much, but a little

 

[PsychoSarah]

Also loyalty is a bit more conceptual than 'the'. Not much, but a little

Of course. The definition of "the" is more of an explanation of its use in grammar than anything else. It has so little meaning that in some languages a word of equivalent meaning is almost never used.

 

[sarxweh]

Of course. The definition of "the" is more of an explanation of its use in grammar than anything else. It has so little meaning that in some languages a word of equivalent meaning is almost never used.

I only know English firsthand, but by my experience of spanglish, french curse words, and dutch theologica make it clear that language is largely a "cultural thing" that exists as a medium for the meaningful and well endowed-
language professors. Well endow-
nevermind.

 

[juvenissun]

But loyalty isn't restricted in that sense. Also, the tests came from satan, not humans.

I don't know, I think many parents are loyal to their children. We seem to be stuck on semantics.

Not necessarily. That's why God's loyalty is different - his loyalty remains no matter how badly we treat Him.

You are using a different definition of loyalty.

 

[Blessedj01]

You are using a different definition of loyalty.

The only one I've ever heard of. God is always referred to as loyal.

 

[juvenissun]

The only one I've ever heard of. God is always referred to as loyal.

So, what is it?

Is the definition of loyalty "the God"?
If so, I am loyal means I am God?

If not, then what is it?

 

[bhsmte]

Loyalty towards someone can be used in a beneficial way or in a negative way, depending on the circumstances.

If a president continues to loyally support a cabinet member who is performing below standards, has broken the law and or has lost the ability to perform his duties, that is when loyalty becomes blind.

There are other times when loyalty can be a positive thing, when support is needed to get the job done.

 

[Blessedj01]

So, what is it? Is the definition of loyalty "the God"? If so, I am loyal means I am God? If not, then what is it?

There probably is no best definition, just best examples of.

God mighty, so is Vladimir Klitschko. Doesn't mean Vlad is God.

 

[juvenissun]

There probably is no best definition, just best examples of.

God mighty, so is Vladimir Klitschko. Doesn't mean Vlad is God.

If what you said are definitions, then yes, Vlad is God according to the definition.

 

[juvenissun]

Loyalty towards someone can be used in a beneficial way or in a negative way, depending on the circumstances.

If a president continues to loyally support a cabinet member who is performing below standards, has broken the law and or has lost the ability to perform his duties, that is when loyalty becomes blind.

There are other times when loyalty can be a positive thing, when support is needed to get the job done.

To you, EVERYTHING depends on circumstances. You have NOTHING which does not depend on circumstances.

Tell you what, that is one of the hallmarks in the Hellish environment.

Wake up. You need to find something which does not change with the circumstances. Until then, the meaning of your life also depends on the circumstances.

 

[bhsmte]

To you, EVERYTHING depends on circumstances. You have NOTHING which does not depend on circumstances.

Tell you what, that is one of the hallmarks in the Hellish environment.

Wake up. You need to find something which does not change with the circumstances. Until then, the meaning of your life also depends on the circumstances.

Ok, I will wake up, depending on the circumstances.

 

[juvenissun]

Ok, I will wake up, depending on the circumstances.

If you waked up and the circumstances turned to bad again, then what you do? That is the problem of depending. Loyal to somebody or something depends on circumstances is not loyalty at all. It is opportunism.