What do people mean when they say that the law of the new covenant is no longer the ten commandments, but simply that we must love. How do we know what love is?
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What is love?
- Thread starter Laodicean
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Laodicean,
Why did you ask the question as to the quality of love, when you know the answer?
Love is the most obvious quality that the Father of all spirits has revealed, yet it is hidden from our ears and eyes and our hearts.
When the Lord takes the stone from our heart and gives us a heart of flesh, then we understand and confess to our own hurt and the loss of all things.
It is painful when he writes on the fleshly tables of our heart by his Spirit which cuts us to the quick, and makes us a living epistle. Some profess that a Spirit of happiness has come to them bringing pleasure to their senses, and opening the door to financial comfort and security for years to come.
When the commandment comes to us, sin becomes alive and brings us sorrow and suffering, i.e., death. Grace is then given as an ointment, salve, which comforts us in our suffering shame for the name of Jesus. In this grace we are enabled to endure the light afflictions (compared to Jesus' afflictions) of this present evil world, which works for us a far more exceeding eternal weight of glory, while we earnestly wait in anticipation of the manifestation of the children of God, wherein our vile bodies will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Joe
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- Sep 24, 2005
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This is a pretty good description of how love behaves, and it isn't even based on the ten commandments:
1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Also, the standard for us is not the law but the Spirit living in us:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Laodicean said:
The ninth commandment was limited in scope. It prohibited bearing false witness against a neighbor. It did not prohibit all lying. The ten commandments, including the ninth, were specific applications of eternal principles, not principles themselves, and they were given to a limited people for a limited time. The ten commandments were not principles "encoded in a certain set of words"; they were merely words based on eternal principles. That distinction was a major factor in my rethinking of the Adventist Sabbath doctrine.
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Originally Posted by Laodicean
What does it mean to be kind? It means to not lie about another, to not destroy them, to not steal from them, to not covet what they have.
What does it mean to be patient? It means to work with and for another, not hastily discard them and their problems. Impatience can lead to the quick lie, the hot, impulsive action that can kill. It can lead to the intolerance of a partner's faults so that love fails and divorce follows.
What does it mean to not brag or be arrogant? It means to not "vaunt" yourself with lies. It means to be happy that someone has more than you do, and that you will not covet what they have, for coveting comes from a place of wanting to have what is not yours, and bragging and arrogance comes from that same place.
I could go through the rest and show how the ten commandments are embedded in all that loving behavior. But hopefully, you get my meaning?
I agree with you that the standard is the Spirit living in us. But the Spirit keeps the law, and if the Spirit lives in us, then He will keep the law in us, if we let Him. So this is not a case of doing away with the law, but recognizing that the law is no longer a dead letter, written on stone, but a living code written on the heart.
Originally Posted by Laodicean
I agree. Though other forms of lying can be wrapped up in other commandments. For instance, we actually steal from another's reputation if we lie about them.
the eternal principles are for all time, and therefore, as long as the specific applications of these eternal principles apply, those applications remain in force. Has a time come when it is not necessary to honor our parents? Has a time come when it is not necessaryto refrain from stealing from another? If these applications were given for a limited time and to a limited people, then I would say that that time (now) and people (us) are still in existence.
What is the difference between "principles encoded in a certain set of words, and "words based on eternal principles"? They say the same thing in different words. So I'm surprised that this "sameness" was a major factor in your rethinking the Sabbath doctrine.
And what exactly is love? Would you describe for me how love behaves? What is the standard of love? What are its characteristics?
Nice answer. But why do you think it is not based on the ten commandments? What does it mean to be kind? It means to not lie about another, to not destroy them, to not steal from them, to not covet what they have.
What does it mean to be patient? It means to work with and for another, not hastily discard them and their problems. Impatience can lead to the quick lie, the hot, impulsive action that can kill. It can lead to the intolerance of a partner's faults so that love fails and divorce follows.
What does it mean to not brag or be arrogant? It means to not "vaunt" yourself with lies. It means to be happy that someone has more than you do, and that you will not covet what they have, for coveting comes from a place of wanting to have what is not yours, and bragging and arrogance comes from that same place.
I could go through the rest and show how the ten commandments are embedded in all that loving behavior. But hopefully, you get my meaning?
Originally Posted by Laodicean
Would you agree that love is a principle, and that that principle means "Do no harm to others"?
So let's take the ninth commandment -- bearing false witness -- and see how far back it goes. Did lying originate at the time of the Israelites and that is why a commandment had to be given at that time, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"?
How far back in time can we go before it becomes evident that it is okay to bear false witness against another? Biblically speaking, we can't go any further back than the history written there. (Whether you agee with the reliability of the Bible or not, let us use that standard of information for purposes of this discussion, okay?)
If we are going to base our argument from the Bible, would you agree that we can say that the command to not bear false witness existed as far back as the Garden of Eden? The moment Satan insinuated that God could not be trusted, He had in essence lied to Adam and Eve, and, at that moment, the law of love was broken, and the principle of do no harm to another was broken, for Satan not only lied about God, but took from Him (stole) the trust that Adam and Eve had had in Him.
So, would you agree that the prinicples of the ten commandments have existed long before they were encoded in a certain set of words?
So let's take the ninth commandment -- bearing false witness -- and see how far back it goes. Did lying originate at the time of the Israelites and that is why a commandment had to be given at that time, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"?
How far back in time can we go before it becomes evident that it is okay to bear false witness against another? Biblically speaking, we can't go any further back than the history written there. (Whether you agee with the reliability of the Bible or not, let us use that standard of information for purposes of this discussion, okay?)
If we are going to base our argument from the Bible, would you agree that we can say that the command to not bear false witness existed as far back as the Garden of Eden? The moment Satan insinuated that God could not be trusted, He had in essence lied to Adam and Eve, and, at that moment, the law of love was broken, and the principle of do no harm to another was broken, for Satan not only lied about God, but took from Him (stole) the trust that Adam and Eve had had in Him.
So, would you agree that the prinicples of the ten commandments have existed long before they were encoded in a certain set of words?
I agree. Though other forms of lying can be wrapped up in other commandments. For instance, we actually steal from another's reputation if we lie about them.
the eternal principles are for all time, and therefore, as long as the specific applications of these eternal principles apply, those applications remain in force. Has a time come when it is not necessary to honor our parents? Has a time come when it is not necessaryto refrain from stealing from another? If these applications were given for a limited time and to a limited people, then I would say that that time (now) and people (us) are still in existence.
What is the difference between "principles encoded in a certain set of words, and "words based on eternal principles"? They say the same thing in different words. So I'm surprised that this "sameness" was a major factor in your rethinking the Sabbath doctrine.
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Joe, I have an answer, but I don't claim to know the answer. Others might have enlightenment for me so I'm open to their insights. Until then, I will present the answer I have until someone either overturns it or refines it further.
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Cribstyl
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A shameful misquote by Judiazers, of what Jesus meant by the "commandments", to isolate it to the 10.com, rather than all that Christ was speaking to His followers.
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Byfaithalone1
The gospel is Jesus Christ!
Great quotes, Sophia. There is much to learn about love, but we can only learn so much by reading a book. If we need tips to get started, you've pointed us to some great tips. Now we need to go practice. This is how we learn what love is.
BFA
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- Sep 24, 2005
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No, they don't say the same thing in different words. Your whole post equates the ten commandments with eternal principles. They are not the same.
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Laodicean,
The "know" of which I was speaking is the "know" in the new covenant promise through Jeremiah and then again through Paul.
Jer 31:34
for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; KJV
Heb 8:11
for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. KJV
Joe
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Byfaithalone1
The gospel is Jesus Christ!
Makes sense. That's what eternal means. However, the covenant that was added 430 years after Abraham was not intended to be eternal. It was added only until the Seed had come.
BFA
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Jesus is the fulfillment of what the Lord said to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and then to David.
The ministration of Moses is a link between the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) and the promises of the Lord through David and his Seed.
These different manifestations of the Lord form a chain of truth in the revelation of his love in Jesus Christ our Lord.
The nations are to be blessed through this chain.
Jesus is the full living reality of love. Everything else is a shadow/image/reflection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is at the right hand of God the Father, the Word of God made flesh, raised from the dead by the Spirit of promise/holiness.
He is the Head of the creation. The household of faith (Abraham's Seed) are members in particular of his body, the royal priesthood, designed of God to bless the nations who are governed by a rod of iron and healed with the leaves of the tree of life.
Joe
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Love is a principle, not a feeling. It is best described by the ten commandments: Love to God and love to each other.
How we treat God and each other, when based on the standard of behavior depicted in the ten commandments, is a commentary and a real-world example of how love behaves.
1 Corinthians 13 is the ten commandments in action.
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Laodicean,
Jesus from Gethsemane to Calvary is the 10 commandments in action as our transgressions and sins against the 10 words brought the death of our Lord Jesus; which is the reality of 1 Corinthians 13.
As he was made to be sin for us, sin, that it might appear as sin, worked death in our Lord Jesus, by that which is good.
As this event occurred, simultaneously the better was being prepared for the household of faith.
The best will be given when he appears the 2nd time unto those who look for him. Then God will be all in all as the Son is subject unto the Father.
Many are called in faith, few are chosen in ministry through the Spirit in the dispensation of grace against our will.
Many have come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Few are sealed with the Spirit of grace against their will, in the image of Gethsemane. No man can desire this dispensation of grace, not even the son of man when he was made to be sin for us and tasted death for every man, drinking the cup to the dregs.
Joe
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Byfaithalone1
The gospel is Jesus Christ!
I similarly conclude that the ultimate example of love is Jesus Christ, not the ten commandments. He is the reality to which the shadow points.
BFA
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BFA,
Amen and amen.
Jesus our risen Lord, the Christ of God, is the true and living sabbath rest of God, in whom all the nations are blessed.
Joe
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