What is LIFE? Is it special?

[Nim]

As a Christian, what do you believe the minimum requirements of life is? Im not sure if there is a hard definition for life from the viewpoint of science, but in general, it seems that the belief is that life is just a system that can self-replicate sexually or asexually. Others, who don't consider viruses to be "alive", add on one more requirement; metabolism (the ability to create and use kinetic energy). I think viruses are just floating packets of DNA. Although now that I think about it, if they can't move at all, then how do they inject there DNA?

Ok, moving on. Strictly following this definition would mean that a human born or made sterile is not alive. And that a machine that can self-replicate is alive. It would also mean that your cells are alive (Im not sure if this sounds strange or not to most people). Some twinking to the definition can be done, but its' easy to run into other problems when doing this, such as inadvertently adding even more man-made machines into the category of life or excluding a human clone (something that may end up happening). I can't think of a simple definition of life that includes and excludes what we feel is and isn't alive. Maybe there isn't one.

So, as a Christian, what do you think? Is there simply no scientific definition that can accurately describe life? Is there something special that God instilled in all his creatures that go beyond physical attributes, or is there nothing special about life unless it is also a spiritual being like most humans perceive themselves as being?

 

[4christ88]

k, um...since i had a reeeaally long tiring day..dunno if my answer will make sense and it'll definitely not sound very intellectual/philosophical as i would like it to sound

so here goes...life is something God has given me to use wisely and enjoy.

minimum requirements?? huh? dont really get that and dont think there's a right answer. well i think there definitely has to be love in it and the greatest love one can have is the love of the Heavenly father...people all over are looking for love...most of the secular songs subject involve relationships of some sort or another or some futile search for it. but on the other hand, christian songs are so full of praising the diving author of Love and life!

and yes, life is special no matter what those pessimistic scientists and philosophers say and write huge stacks of bks on. if there was nothing special to life and it all ends when we give our last breath on earth, why spend time writing tons of books on something so useless?!! that makes absolutely NO sense to me. that is why each of us is instilled with that "self preservation" thing. even animals and "lowly" insects!

so what was ur question again?? jsut kidding...

 

[Nim]

minimum requirements?? huh? dont really get that and dont think there's a right answer.

Yes, I know, minimum requirements sounds more like something you would read on a video game package. But to be labled anything, such as alive or cognizant, you have to have something or lack something. Think of free will for instance, you have to at least be able to make a decision to have free will. At least, according to some or most people.

well i think there definitely has to be love in it and the greatest love one can have is the love of the Heavenly father...

This would exclude a lot of creatures that are considered to be alive. Maybe you are thinking of life as in living day to day sense rather than the biological sense. Im wondering what peoples perspective is on the actual condition of being being alive. That is, what makes, in your opinion, an animal different from a rock. Unlike humans, some aren't much different.

 

[WashedClean]

. That is, what makes, in your opinion, an animal different from a rock. Unlike humans, some aren't much different.

LOL That cracked me up...

Seriously, very interesting question. A rock is not "alive" because it can't die. It can't grow from within itself. It's an inanimate object.

The thing that sets human beings apart from all other animals is that we were made in God's image. Now, that really has no bearing on your question I suppose, but just wanted to point that out.

I would define something as alive if it can reproduce or grow. Also, if it can die. Does this make any sense?

 

[Nim]

A rock is not "alive" because it can't die.

Im asking what life is, not what is non-life is. Non-life is simply not life, as you have pointed out in your own way.

I would define something as alive if it can reproduce or grow. Also, if it can die.

That is analogous to saying that something is X only if it can cease being X. You can't define death until you define life. So it doesn't make sense to define life by using death.

The thing that sets human beings apart from all other animals is that we were made in God's image.

Do you think life that wasn't created in God's image can be created by humans? Can non-human life be created by man? Or is there something special about non-human life, that man cannot duplicate with the raw materials of the Earth in a lab? Is self-replication what makes non-human life special, or is it something else that humans cannot create from scratch?

I came across a very recent article about self-replicating. These cube thins create more cubes, they also grow in a sense, because the new cubes will start helping once they are completed enough to be of assistance. Man is getting better at creating self-replicating machines. One of the newer things that is being worked on is a machine that can not only create plastic objects like a flute (that is old news) or something else simple that you can program it to do, but also can create a copy of itself. The point of this is to make it a lot cheaper, because right now they are very very expensive.

I would post an article but the "paste" function isn't working. I get an error saying that I need to edit my mozilla config file.

 

[Quijote]

I would define something as alive if it can reproduce or grow. Also, if it can die. Does this make any sense?

That reminds me of the Greeks when some of their philosophers asked the same question...Fire reproduces, grows and dies....

cheers

 

[Nim]

That reminds me of the Greeks when some of their philosophers asked the same question...Fire reproduces, grows and dies....
cheers

Interesting. I never thought about that.

 

[Quijote]

Interesting. I never thought about that.

I remember studying this same question in one of my philosophy classes in college...unfortunately, I can't remember what they said nor can I look it up 'cause we're in the middle of moving and all our books are in storage right now (and will be for three more months).

cheers

 

[heron]

I just ran across one: A complex system is alive if it uses energy to maintain the order integral to its internal function.

That makes nanotechnology a scary prospect! What if we suddenly need to define civil rights for a machine.

As you said, metabolism or some form of expending/generating or intake/outtake to maintain would make sense. Respiration optional, but some form of intake of a necessary gas? and intake of a necessary energy form? Still doesn't keep out the robots.

Now, think about the string theory, that particles within every molecule have movement. That means that not only do the electrons of your virus move on their own, but bands within them vibrate as a part of the music of the spheres. If self-propulsion implies life, then is everything alive?

Nap time.

 

[gaweatherford]

So, as a Christian, what do you think? Is there simply no scientific definition that can accurately describe life? Is there something special that God instilled in all his creatures that go beyond physical attributes, or is there nothing special about life unless it is also a spiritual being like most humans perceive themselves as being?

I think we have the whole of creation to compare to, in that "they" are not aware of God and can not be,.....(but we can and do), to account for what is special about God, life and us. The special attributes "instilled" in "man" is not indigenous to creation, because we are not "dumb animals" like the rest of it, .... but we are capable of being aware of God. One way we could describe ourselves is like this: We were all dumb animals (for the sake of a physical sense), that were given the insight to see outside their createdness into the creator. "Intelligent being creation" is just another word for what it takes to be aware of God in the first place. It's more than a pre-requisite...it's the way it has to be for us to know of God. In fact , our ability to discover God, through the lack of boundless awareness that was "instilled" in us within our intelligent awareness, is what makes us so special that God would choose to even acknowledge us. The underlining differance in man (in comparison to the rest of life) that gains him the responsibility from God to even offer such gifts, as eternal life and to know him, is the fact that man was given the gift for the ability to be aware of God. It's not that he has to- he is God, but it is why God is responsible to us through out the Bible and has offered a second look to us. We are not worthy but yet he is patient, loving, and enduring. The rest of creation is not able to love God (animals other than us) because they're not aware of him. I know a lot of people like to think their pets go to heaven........but I don't think so. That's a place reserved for the royalty of those who have had the priviledge to comprehend God. You have to be aware of something 1st, before it can take on any value with you to the point where something is owed you for it. Animals simply can't fit the criteria neccessary to enter into heaven because they can't expect beyond what their able to comprehend. The animals would actually have nothing to miss in death, so it's no cruel misjustice to them. On the other hand, our ability to be aware should never be viewed too casually, because it is the connection granted in life which is the only viable perception granted in the entire Universe that enables life to be aware of God.......and all that comes from him.
The exchange between God and man is through our ability to be aware and is where the road is even and highly respected,...... and is what make "us" all so special and life so significant...to God, as well as us. That's my take on it anyway.

 

[Nim]

I just ran across one: A complex system is alive if it uses energy to maintain the order integral to its internal function.

That's a good one. The structure of living things tends to break down and so it has to continuously reconstruct parts of itself. Our cells, even our bones, are being replaced by new material because they wear out.

Now, think about the string theory, that particles within every molecule have movement. That means that not only do the electrons of your virus move on their own, but bands within them vibrate as a part of the music of the spheres. If self-propulsion implies life, then is everything alive?

An electron doesn't really self-propel though, self-propulsion is when something uses its own energy source to move from one place to another. And I dont' think anyone thinks that something that can self-propel (such as a car) or just mere movement, on its own, implies life. Viruses can at least self-replicate, and plants can't self-propel, but they can replicate and metabolize.

 

[4christ88]

Yes, I know, minimum requirements sounds more like something you would read on a video game package.

yes, thats why i was surpirsed at ur choice of words

This would exclude a lot of creatures that are considered to be alive. Maybe you are thinking of life as in living day to day sense rather than the biological sense. Im wondering what peoples perspective is on the actual condition of being being alive. That is, what makes, in your opinion, an animal different from a rock. Unlike humans, some aren't much different.

k, what makes a biological sense a more important way to view life?

k, then as i said before, if life was not that important, u won't have the instinct called "self preservation". i remember that even with mosquitos and ants as i try to chase and kill them (well mosquitos) when i used to live in a malaria place. they're not just gonna sit there on ur hand or whatever waiting for u to hit them!

 

[heron]

Actually, plants' hormones move to one side when light hits the stem, and that's what makes a plant bend as it grows. So in a sense, their growth is their movement, determined by environment and needs, even though their roots lock them to a core location. I'm stretching, huh.

The sub-atomic movement (band or string) is supposed to be constant, and possibly interactive with adjacent forces, so instead of the directional concept of self-propulsion, maybe it's more like everything humming together as if all of life and non-life were one great organism.

I like your comments on breaking down. Isn't it funny that decay or disintegration is a recognizable sign of life?

 

[Nim]

k, what makes a biological sense a more important way to view life?

I never said it was a more important way to view life.

Isn't it funny that decay and disintegration is a recognizable sign for life?

Definitely. It goes further than that though, cells also kill each other and themselves to maintain the health of all the cells as a whole. Here is some info I've picked out that elaborates on it:

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/1999/may5/cellsuicide-55.html
For the many cells in your body, death is more important than life. Like loyal members of a huge army, they work together to keep your muscles, organs, and nerves functioning smoothly. And like true soldiers, if one cell runs into internal trouble it is likely to sacrifice itself for the good of the whole community. Such cellular suicide is called apoptosis, and it is critical in both normal development and the prevention of cancer.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/genome/dna_sans.html
The human body contains about 100 trillion cells, each working together in a complex symphony of interactions. With the exception of red blood cells, which contain no nucleus and no nuclear DNA, every one of these cells contains the human genome -- a string of three billion A's, C's, G's, and T's. And in every one of the 100 trillion cells, the sequence of these four letters, or bases, is nearly identical.

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/resources/glossary/
A genome contains the biological information for building, running, and maintaining an organism—and for passing life on to the next generation. Nearly every cell in your body contains a complete copy of your genome; so, in fact, you actually have a trillion genomes because scientists believe the human body contains about a trillion cells.

http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMI/8.5.1.htm
How many cells are there in the human body? Serious estimates vary from a low of 10 trillion312,931,2185 up to 50 trillion,870 75 trillion,71,863 and even 100 trillion.836,932,938,2022 The numbers show considerable spread because some authors refer only to tissue cells while others may refer to all cells physically present, both native and foreign.

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/cells.html
The human body is made up of trillions of cells. Cells of the nervous system, called nerve cells or neurons, are specialized to carry "messages" through an electrochemical process. The human brain has about 100 billion neurons.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/blood6.htm
Monocytes enter the tissue, where they become larger and turn into macrophages. There they can phagocytize bacteria (up to 100 in their lifetime) throughout the body. These cells also destroy old, damaged and dead cells in the body.

http://evolution-facts.org/Classroom/classroom5.htm
A thousand new base pairs are made each second. The human body has 100 trillion cells, and every minute 3 billion of them die in your body.

http://www.bgiseminars.com/BGI_articles_Geometry.htm
Cells are constantly dying and being replaced. Billions and trillions each day. And miraculously liver cells replace liver cells, lung cells replace lung cells, even though every single cell in the body has all the information necessary to produce any chemical and become any type of cell. But because it grows and develops in the tonal field of a heart, heart cells replace heart cells, therefore reproducing the geometry which then echoes back the heart melody letting the world of the human body know that all is well.

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:3T5v4zYEryYJ:biophysics.jhu.edu/classes/250.106-300-306/documents/EXAMPLE9.PDF+billions+cells+constantly+dying&hl=en
Every day, billions of cells in a person's body die. In our brain, organs, skin, and countless other places, cells are constantly dying and being replaced. The process by which these cells degenerate is called programmed cell death, or apoptosis.



http://home.bitworks.co.nz/trivia/body.htm
15 million blood cells are produced and destroyed in the human body every second.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/res_stem12.htm
The human body contains 220 different types of cells.

 

[heron]

Nim, thanks for all those quotes and links. The sacrificial cells--that's an interesting concept, anthropomorphizing or implying some sort of intelligence in the decision, where the action is probably cause by a similar process to the plant bending. We are so complex. Imagine how long it has taken humans to figure themselves out, and we are not even done yet.

I think that your posts in a way answer your first question. The RNA/DNA, with the exception of viruses (which steal others' to become alive) is unique to living organisms, correct? But then we would need to make a rule to exclude the computers using DNA to perform calculations (experiments started around the 80's) by declaring naturally-occurring DNA within the cells as the requisite.

Since DNA is considered the instruction manual for the organism's growth and structure, then using DNA in the definition of life could imply that an object is alive if it comes with a manual. (?) That was an awfully quick conclusion; feel free to shift that.


​

DNA encodes with a slightly more complex system. Unlike the computer that uses 0 and 1, and unlike humans that use a decimal system 0 through 9, DNA uses a system of four conditions. http://www.onelife.com/onelife2.html

 

[Nim]

I think that your posts in a way answer your first question. The RNA/DNA, with the exception of viruses (which steal others' to become alive) is unique to living organisms, correct? But then we would need to make a rule to exclude the computers using DNA to perform calculations (experiments started around the 80's) by declaring naturally-occurring DNA within the cells as the requisite. ​

It's the information on the DNA that is important and information can be put on a lot of different mediums, including different organic mediums. Another viable technology is spintronics (quantum computing).

Since DNA is considered the instruction manual for the organism's growth and structure, then using DNA in the definition of life could imply that an object is alive if it comes with a manual. (?) That was an awfully quick conclusion; feel free to shift that.

If DNA was thought of as such, then yes. But it would seem strange to confirm one computer as alive and another as not if they had the exact same information on them but only contained that information on different mediums.

Just found this article, it's from 2002:

http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/6/3/11
Scientists have previously used DNA computers to crack computational problems with up to nine variables, which involves selecting the correct answer from 512 possible solutions. But now Adleman’s team has shown that a similar technique can solve a problem with 20 variables, which has 2[sup]20[/sup] - or 1 048 576 – possible solutions.

​

 

[heron]

Thanks for the article, I hadn't kept up on that.

Time to harvest!
(Too warped?)

 

[heron]

Spintronics....I wondered if DNA would replicate significantly outside its natural environment. Guess so.

"Researchers at the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology have used the self-assembly of DNA molecules to build electronic devices from carbon nanotubes. The DNA acts as a scaffold for positioning a single-walled carbon nanotube at the heart of a field-effect transistor, as well as a template for the metallic wires connecting the device." (K Keren et al. 2003 Science 302 1380)

 

[Anti Existance]

WHere is the soul? Although everything is made out of energy, i do not think that machines have consious souls. I think that the minimum requirements are zero. God loves you wether you are demonical or angelic in nature, God makes no difference in that ,exept that the angelical lifestyle is preferred. Machines do not know ethics or a concept of what is bad and what is good. Therefore i can conclude that your reasoning is absolutely rediculous.

There's a very thick line between machinery and biology. You are chaotically interconnecting the delicate and firm rules that are set up for both of them. Human beings are genetical electro chemical amino acid based creatures which solemnly consern themselves into staying alive without knowing the reason why. We aren't machines, in fact we weren't even made to work, to read or to do all those other add onns that we do nowadays, your brain is made for survival, while a terminator is a machine gone haywire who is out to destroy us. That's the difference ,lol.

 

[heron]

okay, and for the other creatures--which was the original question, how do you define what's alive? We know that a budding yeast cell is alive, but is a virus?