What is judging?

[ToBeLoved]

Didn't I say, "You may disagree and claim Jesus wasn't talking to you but to the Jews." which you went ahead and did anyway. Yet, you didn't give me an answer I havn't heard before, nor did you answer the further points I brought up. Why give me an answer I've said I've already heard and rejected because of so and so then not address so and so?

Why have you not addressed where Paul says, after staying that we are not under the law, then goes on to say we must love our neighbors as ourselves? Why do you not address the scriptures that say repent and turn to God?

I know your religion, I have heard it in the Baptist church for years. I know where he bible contradicts it also which I have explained aome of.

Serious question: why is it every time someone has a discussion about how we are supposed to behave acvording to the bible someone comes up and claims we can do whatever we want? Because we are in the last days warned about where false teachers teach ungodliness.

Do not act like 95% of Christian judgement is for the benefit of the judger and not the other person. I have met a handful of Christian's who will walk anyone through an issue with the judgement they make upon another. They are too busy or have a family or whatever excuse it is, but they take time to judge, but not help them.



Matthew 7:1-3
1 Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2 For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?

Let's also not act like it is not made perfectly clear in the Bible that to the extent one judges another that judgement will be made upon them, so your scripture to judge is a little faulty if not in 100% agape love. Which Christ had.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

If you saw me stealing and said I was condemned to hell for doing it that would be a good thing, because 1 Corinthians 6:10 says "Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." You are simply quoting the bible and warning me of the consequenses of my actions as is your Christian duty. You would be wrong not to tell me.

Yes, you are, by our english definition, judging. But this is not the judging that is warned against, that is a different Greek word that we also translate to judge. The one warned against says that if you conclude I'm a thief and change your behavior based on that belief. You are stealing, the bible says you will go to hell for that (not the judgement warned against) and so you are not my friend anymore (now you are doing the judging warned against).

I don't agree. See, if I saw you stealing and I told you that stealing is wrong and if you continue to steal and do not repent then you will not be saved, that is fine. I'm telling you that your action was wrong and that continuing in sin will cause you to lose your salvation. What is wrong is if i saw you stealing and I told you, that you are going to hell for stealing or that you are condemned to hell.

 

[rrobsr]

Didn't I say, "You may disagree and claim Jesus wasn't talking to you but to the Jews." which you went ahead and did anyway. Yet, you didn't give me an answer I havn't heard before, nor did you answer the further points I brought up. Why give me an answer I've said I've already heard and rejected because of so and so then not address so and so?

Why have you not addressed where Paul says, after staying that we are not under the law, then goes on to say we must love our neighbors as ourselves? Why do you not address the scriptures that say repent and turn to God?

I know your religion, I have heard it in the Baptist church for years. I know where he bible contradicts it also which I have explained aome of.

Serious question: why is it every time someone has a discussion about how we are supposed to behave acvording to the bible someone comes up and claims we can do whatever we want? Because we are in the last days warned about where false teachers teach ungodliness.

 

[rrobsr]

I really don't know how to respond. I don't think I actually said one thing you said I said. Either you meant to reply to a different post or you simply misunderstood everything I said. I was just quoting scripture. I don't know how to make it more clear, so I guess that's that.

 

[Jim Langston]

I don't agree. See, if I saw you stealing and I told you that stealing is wrong and if you continue to steal and do not repent then you will not be saved, that is fine. I'm telling you that your action was wrong and that continuing in sin will cause you to lose your salvation. What is wrong is if i saw you stealing and I told you, that you are going to hell for stealing or that you are condemned to hell.

The bible says it, I repeat it. The bible says quite clearly "or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people--none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God." We are told to judge within ourselves. Does the bible say thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God? Yes. If someone is stealing they are a thief, are they not? There is actually absolutely nothing to judge about it.

If I see you eating cyanide and tell you that you are going to die is that judgement? There is no question, it is a fact that eating cyanide will kill you. I may then explain that you need a doctor to fix it and take you to the hospital.


The bible says thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God. If I see you stealing is there any question? No, the bible says that if you steal you will not go to heaven. I may then explain about repentance and how you have to repent of your sins to go to heaven.

The only question is in the one who doesn't believe the word of God. Any teaching to the contrary is ungodly.

Do you believe the bible or not?

 

[Jim Langston]

I really don't know how to respond. I don't think I actually said one thing you said I said. Either you meant to reply to a different post or you simply misunderstood everything I said. I was just quoting scripture. I don't know how to make it more clear, so I guess that's that.

I quoted you. Did you not say "He said that to the Jews in the Old Testament, before the day of Pentecost. "??? Which is what I said you might say, did I not? And did I not say, in the post you quoted "I agree with Jesus when asked how to enter the kingdom of God and Jesus said follow the commandments. You may disagree and claim Jesus wasn't talking to you but to tbe Jews."???

I am uncertain as to your confusion.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The bible says it, I repeat it. The bible says quite clearly "or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people--none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God." We are told to judge within ourselves. Does the bible say thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God? Yes. If someone is stealing they are a thief, are they not? There is actually absolutely nothing to judge about it.

If I see you eating cyanide and tell you that you are going to die is that judgement? There is no question, it is a fact that eating cyanide will kill you. I may then explain that you need a doctor to fix it and take you to the hospital.


The bible says thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God. If I see you stealing is there any question? No, the bible says that if you steal you will not go to heaven. I may then explain about repentance and how you have to repent of your sins to go to heaven.

The only question is in the one who doesn't believe the word of God. Any teaching to the contrary is ungodly.

Do you believe the bible or not?

I think you need to calm down and read what I said properly because its not contradicting what you just said. If a thief remains a thief he is not going to be in heaven. That is plain. So if someone is stealing, you let them know that if they continue in this practice that they will be lost. Telling them that they are going to hell because they have stolen is judging because you are putting yourself in the position of the only one who knows their destiny. That thief today might be a saint tomorrow. So you tell them the truth! If you do not repent you will not be saved! But just telling them that they WILL be lost is condemning them to hell which only God can do.

 

[Jim Langston]

[QUOTE="ToBeLoved, post: 70725300, member: 345030"Do not act like 95% of Christian judgement is for the benefit of the judger and not the other person. I have met a handful of Christian's who will walk anyone through an issue with the judgement they make upon another. They are too busy or have a family or whatever excuse it is, but they take time to judge, but not help them.



Matthew 7:1-3
1 Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2 For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?

Let's also not act like it is not made perfectly clear in the Bible that to the extent one judges another that judgement will be made upon them, so your scripture to judge is a little faulty if not in 100% agape love. Which Christ had.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for getting back on topic. The topic is not what people do, but what people should do, so I don't see any worth in your statement "Do not act like 95% of Christian judgement is for the benefit of the judger and not the other person. " because first I never claimed that and second thst is not the discussion at hand.

Now, have you read this thread with the distinction of the two greek words both translated to judge, where one is the judgement you quoted in Matthew (κρίνετε) and the other form of judgement spoken of in 1 Corinthians (ἀνακρίνει).

Yes, κρίνετε is warned against, but that meaning of judging is to come to a conclusion and give a penalty or reward for. ἀνακρίνει. on the other hsnd, is just coming to a conclusion and is recommended "15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

If I say you are going to hell because you are a sinner that is ἀνακρίνει, not κρίνετε.

 

[Jim Langston]

I think you need to calm down and read what I said properly because its not contradicting what you just said. If a thief remains a thief he is not going to be in heaven. That is plain. So if someone is stealing, you let them know that if they continue in this practice that they will be lost. Telling them that they are going to hell because they have stolen is judging because you are putting yourself in the position of the only one who knows their destiny. That thief today might be a saint tomorrow. So you tell them the truth! If you do not repent you will not be saved! But just telling them that they WILL be lost is condemning them to hell which only God can do.

No, I am not condemning them to hell because only God can do that. You you like to rephrase that?

 

[Jim Langston]

I think we've hit the point of diminishing returns. At this point in the conversation it seems that everyone who can take value from this thread has. Now it is like the end of all threads where there will be quarrels ad nosium getting nowhere.

Thank you all for the discussion.

 

[Heaven's Child]

There are different ways of judging. Romans 14 speaks of judging trivial matters and should not be judged. I Cor 4:5 speaks of judging other people's motive. This is dangerous since we can't see man's heart and "what's in the dark belong to the Lord." Matthew 7:1 focuses a little more on judging and hypocrisy. While it is okay to help restore you brother, it is not ok to bring attention to his sin while committing sin yourself. On the other hand we are to judge blatant sin in the church by disciplining the one who openly sins as in I Cor 5. The bible says a little leaven leaveth the whole lump and will spread throughout. Finally, as for rebuking before all, that is aimed toward leadership. This is done so that others will remained discipline and that leaders will be restore in love. If leaders fail to repent and turn from their wicked ways, the church has the responsibility to excommunicate despite his/her popularity. This should be done in love.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I think one of the most spiritually dangerous aspects of judgment is when we pretend that we're not judging. I talked to a woman about this once; she adamantly denied any judgment on her part towards others. Instead she, "reached conclusions".

I guess her phrasing sounded a little nicer so was more appealing to her, but in essence they mean the same thing. So, why was this woman so dead-set against recognizing her "conclusions" as judgments? She was scared. She didn't want to be seen as the "judgment monster" so many people are made to be when they recognize fault in others.

Yet another Christian virtue taken and mutilated into something terrible (like the working of goodness becoming "working one's way to heaven"). The world has us Christians falling over one another to claim that we don't judge, because only bad people are judgmental.

But, because life is impossible without judgment of some kind we still do it, though now we've developed strategies for pretending that we don't, like "reaching conclusions".

How much better to just be honest about our judgement. Yeah, of course we judge. We just come across as hypocrites when we pretend that we don't. People who try to convince others that they don't judge are almost certain to have worse judgement than people who freely accept that they judge and instead of trying to hide it, focus on how to make their judgments more fair and accurate.

 

[Jim Langston]

I think one of the most spiritually dangerous aspects of judgment is when we pretend that we're not judging. I talked to a woman about this once; she adamantly denied any judgment on her part towards others. Instead she, "reached conclusions".

I guess her phrasing sounded a little nicer so was more appealing to her, but in essence they mean the same thing. So, why was this woman so dead-set against recognizing her "conclusions" as judgments? She was scared. She didn't want to be seen as the "judgment monster" so many people are made to be when they recognize fault in others.

Yet another Christian virtue taken and mutilated into something terrible (like the working of goodness becoming "working one's way to heaven"). The world has us Christians falling over one another to claim that we don't judge, because only bad people are judgmental.

But, because life is impossible without judgment of some kind we still do it, though now we've developed strategies for pretending that we don't, like "reaching conclusions".

How much better to just be honest about our judgement. Yeah, of course we judge. We just come across as hypocrites when we pretend that we don't. People who try to convince others that they don't judge are almost certain to have worse judgement than people who freely accept that they judge and instead of trying to hide it, focus on how to make their judgments more fair and accurate.

The judgement she was doing, reaching conclusions, is encouraged in the bible. You were rebuking her for something she was suppossed to do.

She understands the difference between the judgements of reaching conclusions, which is encouraged, and passing judgement once she comes to a conclusion, which is warned against.

Our problem is that our english word "judge" includes both definitions. The Greeks used two sererate words.

She was trying to explain that she was not doing the judgement warned about.

But I guess you were too busy judging her to see that.

 

[rrobsr]

I am uncertain as to your confusion.

Don't let it bother you. My wife always says I'm easily confused.

1 Cor 4:3-4,

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

No man can judge you or I. Paul didn't even judge himself. I'll take my cue from him! God judged both you and I and found us righteous. As righteous as God is himself (Rom 3:22).

I know you don't like me (actually God) making a distinction between OT and NT or between Jew, Gentile, and the church of God. But until you do your bible just won't make sense. The difference is night and day. The Jews were commanded to love in order to be found righteous. We love others because we have already been found righteous.

1 John 4:19,

We love him, because he first loved us.
​

Jews in OT: love first. then righteousness.
Christians in NT: righteousness first, then love.

The Jew in the OT couldn't quite make it. They couldn't even love Jesus. In fact they killed him! But, thanks to God's plan (the mystery revealed to Paul), we Christians in the NT can love. What a tremendous truth!

btw, I'm not Baptist. I don't belong to any major denomination and I'm not likely to any time soon unless one of them aligns with God's word instead of man's tradition.​

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think one of the most spiritually dangerous aspects of judgment is when we pretend that we're not judging.

That is our human mind and hearts. We rationalize all that we do and we can and do convinice ourselves of our good motivations and all the good we do even when we hurt those around us.

I love the Bible verse that says "The heart is deceiptful above all things, who can know it"?

If we do not watch ourselves closely, our heart and mind deceive us.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

She understands the difference between the judgements of reaching conclusions, which is encouraged, and passing judgement once she comes to a conclusion, which is warned against.

How is "Coming to a conclusion" different from "reaching a conclusion"?

This is the kind of confusion that comes when we try to pretend that we're better than we really are, but even that pretending is unnecessary in the first place because exercising wise judgement does not make us bad people. We don't need to use softer words to make it seem as though we're not really doing a bad thing. We don't have to pretend that we're only "reaching conclusions" or whatever.

We're meant to be a light to the world. We can't do that while we're constantly apologizing for making judgments on the moral character of the world. Judgement is a part of righteousness and as long as we're followers of righteousness then judgement belongs to us, too.

 

[Jim Langston]

How is ķ"Coming to a conclusion" different from "reaching a conclusion"?

This is the kind of confusion that comes when we try to pretend that we're better than we really are, but even that pretending is unnecessary in the first place because exercising wise judgement does not make us bad people. We don't need to use softer words to make it seem as though we're not really doing a bad thing. We don't have to pretend that we're only "reaching conclusions" or whatever.

We're meant to be a light to the world. We can't do that while we're constantly apologizing for making judgments on the moral character of the world. Judgement is a part of righteousness and as long as we're followers of righteousness then judgement belongs to us, too.

Coming to a conclusion and reaching a conclusion are the same thing, it's the passing judgement that is different.

I.E. You are a murderer so that means you are going to hell without repentance (coming to a conclusion, fine, in english we call this judging) and because you did this you can't come to our church (passing judgement, not okay/warned against, we also call this judging).

Can you see the two different things we both call judging in the english language? Coming to a conclusion and stating it is okay, doing something because you came to a conclusion is warned against.

I really don't know how I can make this any clearer.

 

[outlawState]

I don't agree. See, if I saw you stealing and I told you that stealing is wrong and if you continue to steal and do not repent then you will not be saved, that is fine. I'm telling you that your action was wrong and that continuing in sin will cause you to lose your salvation. What is wrong is if i saw you stealing and I told you, that you are going to hell for stealing or that you are condemned to hell.

I agree that it is incorrect to impute a final judgement onto a temporal sin, because it excludes the possibility of repentance. It defeats the very gospel itself.

On the other hand, if someone is caught sealing, depending on the nature and seriousness of the theft - it could be small change left in a public locker, or it could be a major swindle - one is entitled to go further and make an assessment as to whether that person is saved at all, especially in the case of major dishonesty.

With respect to the OP, one is entitled to conclude from what is written in the Bible that all LBGT are not saved.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I.E. You are a murderer so that means you are going to hell without repentance (coming to a conclusion, fine, in english we call this judging) and because you did this you can't come to our church (passing judgement, not okay/warned against, we also call this judging).

They are both cases of judgment. One is fair (e.g. if you're not sorry for what you've done then you almost certainly will go to hell). The other isn't fair (e.g. just because you've done wrong in the past doesn't mean you should be forbidden from fellowship with other Christians).

 

[Jim Langston]

They are both cases of judgment. One is fair (e.g. if you're not sorry for what you've done then you almost certainly will go to hell). The other isn't fair (e.g. just because you've done wrong in the past doesn't mean you should be forbidden from fellowship with other Christians).

Yes. They are both, in the English language, judging. One is fair, encouraged. One is not fair, warned against.

The problem is that now a days most Christians think that both of them are against tbe bible, when this is not true.