What is it?

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Somehow I knew A_W_C would show up and try to hijack this thread. I suggest everyone ignore him or he'll distract us from the real discussion. His comments don't really contribute anything to this particular discussion. If he wants to talk about his problems with dispensationalism, let him start his own thread.

Actually nancy, the one making the inquiry obviously is not a dispensationalist, and the discussion between Dispy and linssue55 vbmenu_register("postmenu_18671727", true); is a departure from the context of this thread.

If anyone is hijacking the thread, it is them.

 

[Dispy]

Somehow I knew A_W_C would show up and try to hijack this thread. I suggest everyone ignore him or he'll distract us from the real discussion. His comments don't really contribute anything to this particular discussion. If he wants to talk about his problems with dispensationalism, let him start his own thread.

I'm in total agreement with you Nancy. He paints all dispensatioalists with the same brush, and there are as many different views in dispensationalism as there are in the Calvinist movement.

He doesn't realize that dispensationalism is a manner in which one studies the Bible. It is neither a denomination or specific doctrine.

I grew up in a Dutch community of a little over 2,00o citizens. there were 7 churches in that town and all either Reformed or Christian Reformed (All Calvinists). They couldn't even agree on the doctrine of the man Calvin. They all had a little different version (scrambled egg doctrine), and each served their congregations a different omlet.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I'm in total agreement with you Nancy. He paints all dispensatioalists with the same brush, and there are as many different views in dispensationalism as there are in the Calvinist movement.

He doesn't realize that dispensationalism is a manner in which one studies the Bible. It is neither a denomination or specific doctrine.

I grew up in a Dutch community of a little over 2,00o citizens. there were 7 churches in that town and all either Reformed or Christian Reformed (All Calvinists). They couldn't even agree on the doctrine of the man Calvin. They all had a little different version (scrambled egg doctrine), and each served their congregations a different omlet.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

No, I address the errors that are common to all dispensational constructs.

You can fight over the differences among yourselves, like you are doing here, which is not in the context of the inquiry of the originator of this thread.

 

[nancy70x7]

Dispy,

Thank you for explaining your take on Scripture. Despite your detailed explanation, I do not find your scenario plausible. It is the Dispensation of Law that is interrupted by the Church age. I see no indication in Daniel or Revelation that the Tribulation is interruped. It is my opinion that something is amiss in both your interpretation and your correlation of Scripture concerning this matter.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Dispy,

Thank you for explaining your take on Scripture. Despite your detailed explanation, I do not find your scenario plausible. It is the Dispensation of Law that is interrupted by the Church age. I see no idication in Daniel or Revelation that the Tribulation is interruped. It is my opinion that something is amiss in both your interpretation and your correlation of Scripture concerning this matter.

Now nancy, stop derailing the thread. This topic of this thread is definitions of what dispensationalism is, not to discuss your own differences of opinion.

 

[linssue55]

The Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the LAW, CANNOT be found in Acts 2. PLEASE point it out to me if it is. I CAN'T FIND IT!

It was the Tribulation that started in Acts 2. Read verses 15-20, then compare it with Joel 2:28-32. Joel is speaking of the 70th week of Daniel. If you believe that Peter isn't saying that the Tribulation has started; then either Peter didn't know what he was talking about, or Joel isn't writing about the 70th week of Daniel.

James through Revelation was written to those that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom."

The Chruch, the Body of Christ CANNOT be found in the entire book of Revelation. Also, it is no where in prophesy.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Then you just continue to believe your apostate human viewpoint beliefs....for I won't stand in your way. You are very confused about scripture. And from what others have said here, which is true.........STICK TO THE ORIGINAL OP.......IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT, START YOUR OWN THREAD. Over and out.......

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Then you just continue to believe your apostate human viewpoint beliefs....for I won't stand in your way. You are very confused about scripture. And from what others have said here, which is true.........STICK TO THE ORIGINAL OP.......IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT, START YOUR OWN THREAD. Over and out.......

I'm glad that you see the terrible errors Dispy dishes out.

Sadly, most of them are classic Darbyite dispensationalistism beliefs held by a great number of the deceived.

 

[Dispy]

Then you just continue to believe your apostate human viewpoint beliefs....for I won't stand in your way. You are very confused about scripture. And from what others have said here, which is true.........STICK TO THE ORIGINAL OP.......IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT, START YOUR OWN THREAD. Over and out.......

I was responding to parts of your posting that I felt were in error. If what I posted is in error, PLEASE respond to what I requested. I am not looking for a fight of any kind. I'm still in the learning mode, and would apprieciate correction.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Dispy]

Dispy,

Thank you for explaining your take on Scripture. Despite your detailed explanation, I do not find your scenario plausible. It is the Dispensation of Law that is interrupted by the Church age. I see no indication in Daniel or Revelation that the Tribulation is interruped. It is my opinion that something is amiss in both your interpretation and your correlation of Scripture concerning this matter.

I do believe that I did say that the Dispensation of the Law was interrupted by the Chruch age. We have no disagreement there.

I never did say that Daniel or Revelation had anything to say about the Tribulation being interrupted. What I was saying is that Jeol 2:28-32 is speaking of the Tribulation, and that Peter in Acts 2:15-20 is saying that the signs that were being demonstrated was what Joel was saying was beginning to happen, i.e. the Tribulation. This Dispensation of Grace "...was kept secret since the world began." Therefore, one would not expect it to be in the OT.

Either Peter didn't know what he was talking about, or Joel 2:28-32 isn't speaking about the Tribulation.

If the Tribulation that started in Acts 2 wasn't interrupted, the it should have lasted for 7 years and the Christ would have returned to established His Kingdom already.

PLEASE tell me what you think Peter was saying in those verses. I can't find anywhere in Acts 2 or 3 that says that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, being started.

Eagerly awaiting your reply.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[nancy70x7]

But why are you basing this doctrine on only the Joel passage? You seem to be ignoring Daniel (where the concepts of the Tribulation and Antichrist are introduced) or Revelation (where the Tribulation is "fleshed out")? If you see that there is no interruption in Tribulation events in these two books, then your conclusion should be that Joel is saying something different from your conclusion. And there are a whole bunch of things that should be happening right now, if we are in the Tribulation. Antichrist should be ruling, Bowl judgments, Trumpet judgments, etc. And we should be OUTTA HERE!! True believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are "harpazo-ed" before God judges Jacob (Israel) and other unbelievers here on earth. (Having said that, I can just hear the howl!!)

Look, this is the first time I've ever heard this concept, so you'll excuse me if I feel a little disoriented dealing with it. It does seem to me that you, and others who believe this, are somehow using bad hermeneutics

 

[JerryShugart]

And there are a whole bunch of things that should be happening right now, if we are in the Tribulation. Antichrist should be ruling, Bowl judgments, Trumpet judgments, etc.

nancy,

I agree with you that the "great tribulation" has not yet occured.

But if we study the Olivet Discourse and the Revelation we can see that some of the things that you mentioned (Bowl judgments, Trumpet judgments, etc.) are not in regard to the "great tribulation" but instead to theevents which will happen after the "great tribulation".

The "great tribulation" is strictly a judgment on Israel.After that tribulation is over,there will be signs in the heavens (Mt.24:29).

Then after an undefined period of time a judgment will come upon the whole earth:

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth"(Lk.21:35).

We can see here that the judgment on the whole world comes after the signs in the heavens:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken"(Lk.21:25,26).

In the Revelation we see at the victims of the "great tribulation" at Rev.6:9,and then they ask:

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"(Rev.6:10).

Then after this we see the signs in the heavens (Rev.6:12-14),the same signs that will be seen immediately after the "great tribulation".Then we see the unbelievers of the whole earth dreading His coming in judgment (Rev.6:15-17).

So the bowl judgments and trumpet judgments are judgments that will not take place until sometime after the "great tribulation".

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"

http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[Dispy]

But why are you basing this doctrine on only the Joel passage? You seem to be ignoring Daniel (where the concepts of the Tribulation and Antichrist are introduced) or Revelation (where the Tribulation is "fleshed out")? If you see that there is no interruption in Tribulation events in these two books, then your conclusion should be that Joel is saying something different from your conclusion. And there are a whole bunch of things that should be happening right now, if we are in the Tribulation. Antichrist should be ruling, Bowl judgments, Trumpet judgments, etc. And we should be OUTTA HERE!! True believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are "harpazo-ed" before God judges Jacob (Israel) and other unbelievers here on earth. (Having said that, I can just hear the howl!!)

Look, this is the first time I've ever heard this concept, so you'll excuse me if I feel a little disoriented dealing with it. It does seem to me that you, and others who believe this, are somehow using bad hermeneutics

Nancy, I am not basing what I believe about the Tribulation on what Joel says. I am basing it upon what Peter said at Pentecost in Acts 2:16 "But THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL; And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS (the TRIBULATION), saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh..."

According to Joel says in 2:28-32, these signs are beginning to appear. If Joel isn't referring to the Tribulation, then what is he referring to? Compare this to Matthew 24, and I feel certain Joel is speaking about the Tribulation.

According to OT prophesy, two things must happen before the kingdom can be established. 1. Christ must suffer, and 2. Israel must go through the Tribulation.

Peter, in Acts 3:19-21, can NOW make a legitimate offer of the kingdom because item #1 above, has been completed (Jesus was crucified, buried and risen), and #2 is starting.

Had Israel repented, as Peter begged, then the Tribulation would have run it's 7 year course, and Christ would have returned and established His Kingdom. However, Israel, as a nation, did not repent; thereby, rejecting the kingdom offer.

It was after the leaders of Israel stoned Stephen in Acts 7, God raised up Saul/Paul, the self proclaimed "chief of sinners," to usher in the dispensation of Grace, and showed Peter, through the vision in Acts 10 that Israel had be set aside, and placed on the same level at the "set aside" Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. ""For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32).

When God set the nation of Israel aside, that interrupted the dispensation of the Law and the Tribulation. Both the Law and the Tribulation will resume after the close of this dispensation of grace, with the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. "Then all Israel will be saved as it is written..." (Rms.11:26).

The Church, the Body of Christ, was not formed UNTIL after the setting aside of Israel. This Church cannot be found in prophesy, and wasn't formed until Israel was set aside. You should be able to see this if you would study Ephesians 2:11-18 in context. When you see the word "ye" and "you" it is referring to Gentile believers, and "them" is referring the Jews.

I was taught and believed the same thing that you presently believe. However, upon studying the verses I mentioned in context, I had no other alternative but to change my views.

The entire book of Revelation has to do with the fulfillment of OT prophesy to Israel. The Chruch, the Body of Christ is nowhere mention in the book. What John is writing about is history to him because he has already seen the events that will happen in the Tribulation. However, to us it is still a future happening.

Please check out the Scriptures I posted and see for yourself where I am coming from. I will look forward to you reply. If you believe what I have written is in error, PLEASE correct me from Scripture. I am not looking for a fight or arguement, but an exchange of ideas.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Jerrysch]

The present "church age" (dispensation of grace) didn't start until after the setting aside of Israel after the stoning of Stephen.

It was the Tribulation that started at Pentecost (Acts 2:15-20), not the church age.

The Chruch, the Body of Christ cannot be found in the entire book of revelation.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Who then were the letters spoken of in the Book of Revelation written to?

 

[JerryShugart]

Dispy,

Are you aware that Pastor Paul Sadler teaches that the "great tribulation" remains in the future?

He lists the "Dispensation of Divine Government" as coming after the "Dispensation of Grace",and he says this in regard to the "Dispensation of Divine Government":

"The tribulation is a prelude to the coming millennial kingdom...This shall be accomplished by chastening Israel,punishing the nations,and bringing the time of Jacob's trouble to a close with the Second Coming of Christ"(Sadler,"Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ",p.62).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"

http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[Dispy]

The present "church age" (dispensation of grace) didn't start until after the setting aside of Israel after the stoning of Stephen.

It was the Tribulation that started at Pentecost (Acts 2:15-20), not the church age.

The Chruch, the Body of Christ cannot be found in the entire book of revelation.

Who then were the letters spoken of in the Book of Revelation written to?

Rev.1:11 "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches WHICH ARE IN ASIA..."

1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven chruches: and the seven candle sticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Angles, stars, and candle sticks are ALWAYS connected to the nation of Israels, NEVER to the Body of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Dispy]

Dispy,

Are you aware that Pastor Paul Sadler teaches that the "great tribulation" remains in the future?

He lists the "Dispensation of Divine Government" as coming after the "Dispensation of Grace",and he says this in regard to the "Dispensation of Divine Government":

"The tribulation is a prelude to the coming millennial kingdom...This shall be accomplished by chastening Israel,punishing the nations,and bringing the time of Jacob's trouble to a close with the Second Coming of Christ"(Sadler,"Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ",p.62).

In His grace,--Jerry

This may come as a surprise to you, but I agree 100% with Pastor Sadler. I have and have read that book.

To the best of my knowledge, I have NEVER said or implied that the great tribulation wasn't yet future. However, I have said that the Tribulation was interrupted with the setting aside of the nation of Israel, and that it would resume after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

In many of the parables of Jesus, in the gospels, He will begin with "For the kingdom of heaven is like unto..." or words to that effect. However in the Parable of the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6-9), He doesn't begin with a phrase like that. So this parable is not necessarily referring to "the kingdom,"

Luke 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man (God) had a fig tree (Israel) planted in his vineyard (the world); and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard (Jesus), Behold, these three years (the length of His ministry) I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he (Jesus) answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung (fertilize with the Holy Ghost)it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

IMHO This parable is referring to what happend to Israel with their rejection of their King and His Kingdom.

It is believed, by many, that it was the giving of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost was to prove to Israel that Jesus was the Christ, and also approximately 1 year from Pentecost to the stoning of Stephen. It was after the stoning of Stephen that God set the nation of Israel aside (cut down).

With the setting aside of the nation of Israel, there was not way that the "so called" great commission could be fulfilled. Therefore, God interrupted the "dispensation of the Law," and "the Tribulation," and ushered in this dispensation of Grace (which was kept secret since the world began) with the raising up of Saul/Paul.

Outside of believing that God had set Israel aside, interrupting the dispensation of the Law and Tribulation, no one has ever been able to explain to me (outside of a "guess") as to why God had to raise up Saul/Paul to go to the Gentiles, kings, and Jews, when He had already commissioned 12 to go to "all the world." It would appear to me that it would be much easier for 12, who were filled with the Holy Ghost, to do the job better then for just one man to do it.

Hope this helps you in understanding just where I am coming from.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

 

[JerryShugart]

However, I have said that the Tribulation was interrupted with the setting aside of the nation of Israel, and that it would resume after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Dispy,

If the "great tribulation" had begun to come to pass at some time in the past then that means that the beginning of the last week of Daniel's 70 week prophecy has already startedWho was it that confirmed the covenant that started the 70th week which represents the "great tribulation"?:

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate"(Dan.9:26,27).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"

http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[Dispy]

Dispy,

If the "great tribulation" had begun to come to pass at some time in the past then that means that the beginning of the last week of Daniel's 70 week prophecy has already started Who was it that confirmed the covenant that started the 70th week which represents the "great tribulation"?:

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate"(Dan.9:26,27).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"

http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

Jerry, it appears to me that you are trying to say something that I DID NOT say.

The "Great Tribulation" is in the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period. I DID NOT say that it had started. IMHO I believe the Tribulation was interrupted sometime within the 1st year, AFTER the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. Also, I know of no Scripture that says that a covenant has to be signed PRIOR to the start of the Tribulation. There surely wasn't one signed when the Tribulation started in Acts 2. However, I do believe one will be signed either prior to the resumption of the Tribulation or very shortly thereafter, but at least PRIOR to the start of the Great Tribulation.

Jerry, if you do not believe that the Tribulation started in Acts 2, the PLEASE tell me what Peter was referring to in verses 15-20 when he quoted Joel 2:28-32. It has to be that either Peter didn't know what he was talking about, or Joel was not referring to the Tribulation in Joel 2:28-32.

If you believe I am in error, PLEASE correct me from the Scripture. Like I have said previously, I'm still in the learning mode.

Looking forward to your reply.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Lets see, how many theories are you up to now?

487,659,243,898

Add another 345,862 by the end of the day.

 

[JerryShugart]

Jerry, if you do not believe that the Tribulation started in Acts 2, the PLEASE tell me what Peter was referring to in verses 15-20 when he quoted Joel 2:28-32. It has to be that either Peter didn't know what he was talking about, or Joel was not referring to the Tribulation in Joel 2:28-32.

Here are the words of Cornelius Stam in regard to Acts 2 and the quote from Joel:

"While the signs of the last days began to appear at Pentecost, they did not all appear. Indeed, after a time those which had appeared began to disappear again.According to Joel's prophecy, as quoted by Peter, the signs of Pentecost were to be followed by signs both in heaven and on earth, and the pouring out of the Spirit was to be followed by the pouring out of God's wrath.

Thank God, these latter signs did not appear--have not even yet appeared. God had not altered His plan to judge this wicked world, but in matchless love He interrupted the prophetic program, held off the day of judgment, saved the chief of sinners and ushered in the day of grace."​

(Stam,"Acts Dispensationally Considered",Volume 1,p.54).

Dispy,I have never read either Stam or Sadler saying that any part of the Tribulation was ever in effect.In fact,I have already quoted Sadler where he says that the "Tribulation" will not take place until the present dispensation is past.

In His grace,--Jerry​

"Dispensationalism Made Easy"

http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html