What is it about?

[Doug Melven]

When we read “died for our sins”, it is not Christ’s death “in place of” our sins (that does not make sense), but “because of” our sins.

Christ died in place of us. He took the penalty that because of our sins we deserved.

You are making this out to be like a traffic ticket where the Judge pays it and lets you go.

I did no such thing. I didn't list any specific crime. You imagined it to be a traffic ticket.

What could possibly be “done” in the positive to offset this crime directly against an infinitely Powerful Judge?

I would suggest nothing, it is beyond being paid for, even any portion of it.

Christ gave His life to pay the debt we owe. Romans 5:8

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

You got on my case about saying I was comparing what we had done to a traffic ticket, which I did not do, and now you say our sin was equivalent to a vase.
our offenses against God were far greater than breaking any vase, no matter how priceless.
God's holiness demands perfection, not fixing something up.
The only way for us to restore fellowship with the Father was for us to become perfect, just like our Heavenly Father. Something we are totally incapable of doing.
So Jesus died in our place.
To expand on my illustration of the judge.
If a person commits some truly heinous crimes like being a serial murder/rapist, and the judge for some reason wants to forgive this person and let him go free, the judge would be unjust.
But, if that judge said, "I love this person and don't want to see him die, but death is what the law requires" and passes the sentence of death. Then the judge himself steps in and takes the place of the offender and dies in his place, justice is satisfied and the offender can go free because the debt was paid.

In our case, God gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[bling]

Why was the suffering significant?

Read Peter’s strong “Christ Crucified” sermon again in Acts 2.

3000 were accepted Peters answer and were baptized of Act 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

BUT they first had to ask the question Acts 2:27 …“Brothers, what shall we do?”

BUT would they have asked that question if they did not experience a death blow to their hearts the worst feeling they could have and still be living: Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart…

BUT what did they hear that cut them to the heart Acts 2:36 …whom you crucified…

If Jesus had died for the cause by someone pushing Him off His donkey on the way into Jerusalem, it would not have the impact on these 3000 the torture, humiliation and murder of the Messiah had.

If Jesus is not cruelly crucified but humanely killed there would be no significance to being “..crucified with Christ” since we all will die at some time if Christ does not come first. Death for a Christian is our way home, but crucifixion is extremely painful and torturous. Each of us can experience Crucifixion empathetically suffering with Christ as our Love grows for Christ and we come to the realization Christ did all this because of my personal sins (I am to blame). Our real “substitution” at the cross is with those who were responsible for crucifying Christ.

 

[bling]

Romans 6:
20For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness.21What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The passage speaks of eternal life in Jesus Christ.

Paul spent 3 chapters on explaining Christ as both the expiatory and propititory for mankind.

First look at what Paul says over in Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

The harvest for just sowing a little seed after the Spirit is eternal life and that is contrasted with sowing after the flesh harvest being destruction (second death I would think as being the contrast to eternal life?) The idea I want us to capture is the fact of “giving up”: If I “give up” sowing after the Spirit I will not harvest eternal life, but it also seems to say if I give up sowing after the flesh I will not harvest the second death. As we go through life around others we automatically sow seeds of good or bad, so stopping sowing the bad results in sowing good.

I have not and will not reap anything I have sown after the flesh, because I gave up on it.

Again, start with at lease Ro 3

Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished” (NIV), but that also should mean the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined”.

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

God delights in the embodied church. Classic church teaching is not body-hating. It is body-affirming. As the Son is embodied and cares for his body and is concerned when his body is endangered, so is the church whose life becomes embodied through the Spirit (Matt. 26:39–42; 1 Tim. 6:20).

Oden, Thomas C. Classic Christianity. Harpercollins Publishers, 2009.

John 6:38 It is the will of him who sent me, not my own will, that I have come down from heaven to do.

Knox, Ronald Arbuthnott. The Holy Bible: Translated from the Latin Vulgate. London: Baronius Press, 2012.

 

[bling]

Christ died in place of us. He took the penalty that because of our sins we deserved.

Christ took the penalty we fully deserved, but not instead of us, but for (for the betterment (advantage) of) us. As disobedient rebellious children of the most Loving God we need forgiveness (which God is wanting us all to have and all we have to do is accept that charity (forgiveness) as charity), but as a wonderful Loving Parent, God also needs to see to our disciplining (often translated punishment) if at all possible and Christ provided the means for fair/just disciplining by allowing us to be crucified with Him and yet live. The punishment for those not accepting this fair/just discipline is hell.

I did no such thing. I didn't list any specific crime. You imagined it to be a traffic ticket.

A judge under our civil laws cannot on his own “forgive” a crime against the society/government/state (he cannot forgive a traffic ticket as an example). The judge can personally pay the fine and then the criminal is indebted to the judge personally and then the judge can forgive the criminal.

This is not the situation with rebellious disobedience directly against the Creator of the Law (God in this case is the state/government/society) and the Judge. God does not need to “pay” Himself to forgive (this even sound silly), since God’s Love is great enough to forgive anything and everything. Is there some poorly created cosmic “Law” which even God is powerless against, which says God cannot forgive without something being “paid”?

If God forgives our sins 100% there is nothing to be paid to Him, we act out of gratitude for what has been done.

It is also strange to consider the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ being a desirable “payment” to God, making God out to be almost blood thirsty? I see my personal need for Christ blood and torture and God being pleased with Christ providing that for me, but not something God personally wants?

Christ gave His life to pay the debt we owe. Romans 5:8

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
As usual everything is dependent on an understanding of the English word “for” which in this case is the Greek word “hyper” best translated “for the betterment (advantage) of” and not “instead of”.

5228 hypér (a preposition) – properly, beyond (above); (figuratively) to extend benefit (help) that reaches beyond the present situation.

5228 /hypér ("beyond") is usually best translated "for the betterment (advantage) of," i.e. focusing on benefit. M. Vincent, "5228 (hypér) signifies something like 'in the interests of the truth . . . concerning.' J. B. Lightfoot (on Gal 1:4) . . . remarks that hypér has 'a sense of interest in,' which is wanting to peri" (WS).

[5228 (hypér) naturally expresses conferring benefit, i.e. for the sake of "betterment" (improvement, extending benefit).]

You got on my case about saying I was comparing what we had done to a traffic ticket, which I did not do, and now you say our sin was equivalent to a vase.
our offenses against God were far greater than breaking any vase, no matter how priceless.
God's holiness demands perfection, not fixing something up.
The only way for us to restore fellowship with the Father was for us to become perfect, just like our Heavenly Father. Something we are totally incapable of doing.

Our offence is beyond anyway of being paid even partial payment (is the idea I was trying to get across). God forgives us for our rebellious disobedience. What is still need is fair/just discipline which for us is a cruel crucifixion.

To expand on my illustration of the judge.
If a person commits some truly heinous crimes like being a serial murder/rapist, and the judge for some reason wants to forgive this person and let him go free, the judge would be unjust.
But, if that judge said, "I love this person and don't want to see him die, but death is what the law requires" and passes the sentence of death. Then the judge himself steps in and takes the place of the offender and dies in his place, justice is satisfied and the offender can go free because the debt was paid.

Justice is totally not satisfied as you describe!!!

Would you pull the trigger in the firing squad of an innocent judge to be killed for a guilty person?

This also means those who crucified Christ are not “guilty” of spelling innocent blood, since Christ was willingly taking the place of the guilty and under your justice deserved to be tortured to death.

No court in any land or country would allow such a thing and it is not in any ones Law book.

The Law says the criminal must be punished and not just any innocent person.

In our case, God gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Right!! If you believe in Christ and Him crucified because of your sins (you caused him to be crucified) than you will experience a death blow to your heart (severe disciplining) and know God really does Love you seeing to your personal severe disciplining for your sins.

How deep do you want to go?

 

[redleghunter]

If Jesus is not cruelly crucified but humanely killed there would be no significance to being “..crucified with Christ” since we all will die at some time if Christ does not come first. Death for a Christian is our way home, but crucifixion is extremely painful and torturous. Each of us can experience Crucifixion empathetically suffering with Christ as our Love grows for Christ and we come to the realization Christ did all this because of my personal sins (I am to blame). Our real “substitution” at the cross is with those who were responsible for crucifying Christ.

I'm still not seeing your version of the atonement.

 

[redleghunter]

First look at what Paul says over in Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

The harvest for just sowing a little seed after the Spirit is eternal life and that is contrasted with sowing after the flesh harvest being destruction (second death I would think as being the contrast to eternal life?) The idea I want us to capture is the fact of “giving up”: If I “give up” sowing after the Spirit I will not harvest eternal life, but it also seems to say if I give up sowing after the flesh I will not harvest the second death. As we go through life around others we automatically sow seeds of good or bad, so stopping sowing the bad results in sowing good.

I have not and will not reap anything I have sown after the flesh, because I gave up on it.

Again, start with at lease Ro 3

Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished” (NIV), but that also should mean the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined”.

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

Again, not seeing clearly your theory of atonement.

 

[bling]

Again, not seeing clearly your theory of atonement.

Please read my post 30,31,34 and let me know what you feel is missing?

 

[redleghunter]

Please read my post 30,31,34 and let me know what you feel is missing?

Yes you took great liberty to redefine "for", that I remember.

Perhaps you can discuss your version of justification. How are we justified before a Holy God?

 

[bling]

Yes you took great liberty to redefine "for", that I remember.

Perhaps you can discuss your version of justification. How are we justified before a Holy God?

I did not come up with some “new” definition these same definitions are found in English dictionaries defining “for”. The gift is for you.

Justification: First, I see it being different than “being righteous”, but similar. People in the OT could be and feel righteous by doing Spirit led good stuff and thus these actions were counted a righteousness. Being Justified before God has more to do with understanding and acting like you really are before God and includes the bad you did in the past. I do not see or read of any OT individual really feeling “justified” before God, but I do feel some were. The tax collector who fell on his face and prayed for mercy went away “justified”, but I do not think he felt he was justified, but did experience a learning growth experience with God. Paul really emphasized our being justified before God in Romans to the Jewish Christians mainly, who would have realized how unique that was for them now, as compared to prior to being Christian.

The question then becomes how can we know we are now justified before God, when we are told to feel that way? We might need to think about this:

As a child if we did something terribly wrong against our Loving parent permission, they would forgiven us, but that did not make us feel comfortable if we were not also lovingly disciplined/punished. Yet if our Loving parents participated with us in just discipline (using it as a sacrificial teaching moment for us to remember) the relationship was made stronger than before our transgression and we were closer to them, without fear of the second shoe dropping.

Going through the experience of being crucified with Christ, because we are guilty of His crucifixion, should bring us to a closer relationship with God than even Adam and Eve had prior to their sinning.

There is no second shoe to drop concerning our sins, we have been fairly/justly disciplined and knowing God has seen to our disciplining allows us assurance of Him being our Father and really like a wonderful parent. We now stand “justified” before God, but not because of what we did but all because of what Christ did and our just believing what He did everything else is automatic.

To say “miraculously” or by some trick Christ’s justification is transferred to me or stand between me and God, does not help me personally feel justified. It does not provide a benefit to sinning, being forgiven and being disciplined, which should make me a better child of God afterwards then before. Transfer my sins to Christ and transferring Christ righteousness to me eliminated the significance of God forgiving me since I owe nothing (Christ took it away).

 

[redleghunter]

Justification: First, I see it being different than “being righteous”, but similar. People in the OT could be and feel righteous by doing Spirit led good stuff and thus these actions were counted a righteousness. Being Justified before God has more to do with understanding and acting like you really are before God and includes the bad you did in the past. I do not see or read of any OT individual really feeling “justified” before God, but I do feel some were. The tax collector who fell on his face and prayed for mercy went away “justified”, but I do not think he felt he was justified, but did experience a learning growth experience with God. Paul really emphasized our being justified before God in Romans to the Jewish Christians mainly, who would have realized how unique that was for them now, as compared to prior to being Christian.

The question then becomes how can we know we are now justified before God, when we are told to feel that way? We might need to think about this:

Paul clearly tells us how one is justified before God:

Romans 5: NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Blood of Christ.

 

[bling]

Paul clearly tells us how one is justified before God:

Romans 5: NASB
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Blood of Christ.

I stated in the above post: "We now stand “justified” before God, but not because of what we did but all because of what Christ did and our just believing what He did everything else is automatic." the details of how it works specifically are given.

 

[redleghunter]

I stated in the above post: "We now stand “justified” before God, but not because of what we did but all because of what Christ did and our just believing what He did everything else is automatic." the details of how it works specifically are given.

However, you have kept the Blood of Christ out of your comments and that directly puts His shed blood as the means of justification.

 

[Doug Melven]

I studied with four sincere Muslims about "why Christ went to the cross" and found my answers and the answers in books were illogical, not consistent and really did not make since, which was the conclusion of my Muslim friends. I went back to all the scriptures, thought about it logically, prayed a lot about it and felt I was being led to another alternative explanation. These Muslims told me in the end: "if that is the way it is than we cannot argue with that conclusion." They were open to talking more, but to this day they have not yet become Christians, but hopefully I set a seed.

Paul said the cross was foolishness to Greeks (Gentiles).
Just because they can't understand something, don't back off on it.

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

God said the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
God told Adam that if he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would die.
God cannot lie. Therefore if someone sins, death is the penalty.
Either we die for our own sins, or we accept Christ's payment for our sins.
This is what Jesus was saying in John 3.
Those who looked to the brasen serpent would live. So those who look to Christ will live.
But, if we don't look to Christ to be saved, we will die.

Christ took the penalty we fully deserved, but not instead of us, but for (for the betterment (advantage) of) us.

In the OT, the sacrifice would be made as payment for one's sins.
The animal had to be perfect, as it was a picture of Christ.
When the sacrifice was made, people would be clean again.
Jesus Christ's sacrifice was definitely for our advantage, without we would all go to hell.
And if we don't rely on it, we will.
So He definitely died in our place. The just for the unjust.

This is not the situation with rebellious disobedience directly against the Creator of the Law (God in this case is the state/government/society) and the Judge. God does not need to “pay” Himself to forgive (this even sound silly), since God’s Love is great enough to forgive anything and everything. Is there some poorly created cosmic “Law” which even God is powerless against, which says God cannot forgive without something being “paid”?

If God forgives our sins 100% there is nothing to be paid to Him, we act out of gratitude for what has been done.

Yes, it is called the Holiness of God.
If God could have just forgiven us without shedding the blood of Jesus Christ, don't you think He would have?
Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Hebrews 9:22

The Law says the criminal must be punished and not just any innocent person.

What about innocent sheep?

 

[bling]

However, you have kept the Blood of Christ out of your comments and that directly puts His shed blood as the means of justification.

Your question was to discuss “justification” and how we stand justified before God. I was trying to present man’s part in all this and leave the rest as being automatic. Your question being: “Perhaps you can discuss your version of justification. How are we justified before a Holy God?”

Christ giving his blood is part of what Christ “did”. Our part has to do with faith:

“having been justified by faith”. In the Old Testament people had faith but it was not said to justify them so what exactly do we need faith in to obtain justification? (that is what I was discussing).

So how would you describe this faith which justifies over the faith of those in the OT?

 

[redleghunter]

Your question was to discuss “justification” and how we stand justified before God. I was trying to present man’s part in all this and leave the rest as being automatic. Your question being: “Perhaps you can discuss your version of justification. How are we justified before a Holy God?”

Christ giving his blood is part of what Christ “did”. Our part has to do with faith:

“having been justified by faith”. In the Old Testament people had faith but it was not said to justify them so what exactly do we need faith in to obtain justification? (that is what I was discussing).

So how would you describe this faith which justifies over the faith of those in the OT?

Man's part of justification? I clearly pointed out we are justified by the Blood of Christ.

 

[bling]

Paul said the cross was foolishness to Greeks (Gentiles).
Just because they can't understand something, don't back off on it.

I did not back off of anything, but was in full agreement with my Muslim friends on the logical contradictions of all the popular theories of atonement. Have you looked at the contradictions with substitution?

God said the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23

Right! But like in Gal. 6:7-9 you do not reap the harvest (very much like being paid a wage) if you quit sowing after the flesh, since quitting sowing after the flesh means you automatically are sowing after the Spirit (you are always sowing something) and that Harvest is eternal life. Ro. 6:23 does not say: “Christ picks up your paycheck”. Being given the gift of eternal life means our pay check of death will not be cashed.

God told Adam that if he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would die.
God cannot lie. Therefore if someone sins, death is the penalty.
Either we die for our own sins, or we accept Christ's payment for our sins.

We all physically die and that is because sin became part of the process (thus needing death) in the fulfillment of man’s objective.

How is physical death a penalty for a Christian?

Explain to me what death came into the world because Adam sinned since in the context it seems to be addressing physical death? I do not go along with the idea babies sinned through Adam?

This is what Jesus was saying in John 3.
Those who looked to the brasen serpent would live. So those who look to Christ will live.
But, if we don't look to Christ to be saved, we will die.

I explained how that works in 30, 31 or 34.

If you do not look to the cross and see Christ being crucified because of your sins, you will not be cut to the heart and experience being crucified with Christ (Loving Discipline). That Loving disciplining accepted correctly will bring us even closer to God/Christ. Those who do not accept this Loving discipline for lack of faith will be punished instead.

In the OT, the sacrifice would be made as payment for one's sins.
The animal had to be perfect, as it was a picture of Christ.
When the sacrifice was made, people would be clean again.
Jesus Christ's sacrifice was definitely for our advantage, without we would all go to hell.
And if we don't rely on it, we will.
So He definitely died in our place. The just for the unjust.

The sacrifice is not said to “clean them”, but God forgave them after the atonement process was completed correctly.

How and why would an animal sacrifice “pay for a sin”?

You did something bad, so you make a payment of a lamb to God in return and that makes it alright?

Does God even like animal sacrifices?

There were NO sacrifices for rebellious disobedience directly against God which could be as small as picking up of sticks on the Sabbath. These sins against God required fair/just disciplining (severe punishment) death of the sinner or banishment (without exception). The Jews did not follow through on this just/fair punishment, because they were all guilty of at least one of them.

There were two types of sin in which you could have a sacrifice for atonement:

1. Unintentional sins and “minor” sins against your fellow man that could be paid back with penalties (these are minor sins) and these sacrifices were done daily.

2. The annual Day of Atonement sacrifice/scape goat was for sins you were not sure you committed or you did not know if God would consider them sins. It is kind of a catch all. The Jews were worried and anxious about what they might have done, so the scape goat was set up to take their guilt (which could have been false guilt) far awy from them.

This can become a lengthy discussion, but starting with Lev. 5 we have atonement sacrifices for “minor” sins, but for the exact same sin you can have different “payments” from a bag of flour to a prized lamb. Which does not make since, if you are paying God for you sin the degree of the offence against God should be exactly the same, so the payment should be the same? This would suggest the person themselves are not equal, the rich person is of greater “value” requiring a higher payment, but that is inconsistent with scripture?

If, like I am suggesting, the atonement process is a disciplining action than trying to equalize the hardship on the sinner would be in line with equal discipline for all God’s children.

Yes, it is called the Holiness of God.
If God could have just forgiven us without shedding the blood of Jesus Christ, don't you think He would have?

God does His part in forgiving everyone, but since that is charity and humans have a real hard time accepting pure sacrificial charity as charity, most humans do not accept God’s forgiveness.

Again, atonement is not for the forgiveness, but is for the disciplining and forgiveness of the sinner.

Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Hebrews 9:22

OK, let’s discuss this verse because it does come up:

If this is saying: “God needs blood to forgive” than does that make God out to be blood thirsty?

God did forgive people who brought nonblood sacrifices (a bag of flour), so the sacrifice itself does not have to be bloody?

Blood was not burned on the alter as a gift to God, but the blood of animals was used to cleanse everything outwardly and make them holy (even the people) and that is what the Hebrew writer is talking about in Heb. 9:22

“…the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood…”

Does God need the blood to see us as clean or do we need the blood to be and feel clean?

Does God have the problem or do we have a problem?

From Christ pray in the garden and God’s Love/empathy for Christ we know They personally would have preferred Christ’s blood remain flowing through His veins, but it is I who need Christ’s blood. I need to know Christ’s blood is out of His body available to cleans me the new temple of God, I need to physically feel that blood in the form of wine going down my throat flowing over my heart and cleansing my heart to make it holy. I am not just being cleansed outwardly, but my heart is being cleansed and made holy. All that cleansing with animal blood in the OT was a shadow of the reality, so I can feel and know I am cleansed of sin.

What about innocent sheep?

Were those innocent sheep tortured to death, because if they are being my “substitute” they need to be tortured to death and not just humanely killed?

“Innocent” sheep are humanely butchered even today, so are they being punished?

Were those bags of flour taking the place of the sinner and being punished in his/her stead?

 

[Doug Melven]

We all physically die and that is because sin became part of the process (thus needing death) in the fulfillment of man’s objective.

How is physical death a penalty for a Christian?

Explain to me what death came into the world because Adam sinned since in the context it seems to be addressing physical death? I do not go along with the idea babies sinned through Adam?

Sin brought 2 types of death. Physical and spiritual.
The day Adam sinned, he died spiritually. that is his spirit died and was separated from God. Years later after having children he physically died.

God does His part in forgiving everyone, but since that is charity and humans have a real hard time accepting pure sacrificial charity as charity, most humans do not accept God’s forgiveness.

What does this have to do with anything. God is the one who required a blood sacrifice. He is the first one to kill an animal to clothe Adam and Eve.
Death was required, otherwise they would have been just fine with fig leaves for clothing.

“…the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood…”

Does God need the blood to see us as clean or do we need the blood to be and feel clean?

And without shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.
In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace.
Again, God is the one who is saying blood is a necessity.
When God was going to kill all the firstborn of Egypt, God required the Jews to put blood on the doorposts.
Then He said, when He sees the blood, He will pass over that house and those in the house will live.
All because of the blood.
It is not like the people said they needed blood to cleanse them or appease God, God said the blood was necessary.

Were those innocent sheep tortured to death, because if they are being my “substitute” they need to be tortured to death and not just humanely killed?

“Innocent” sheep are humanely butchered even today, so are they being punished?

It was still a cruel death.
The offender was required to take the knife and slit the throat of the sacrifice.
And those sheep being slaughtered today are not sacrifices. No temple, no sacrifice.

You keep saying what Jesus did was not done in our place, but for our benefit.
What do you think would happen to us if Jesus had not died?

 

[bling]

Sin brought 2 types of death. Physical and spiritual.
The day Adam sinned, he died spiritually. that is his spirit died and was separated from God. Years later after having children he physically died.

What do you mean when you say: “his spirit died”. Spiritual death has been described as separation from God and not the spirit of the person dying? Jesus, who could have used any words he wanted to, has the Father (representing God) describing the prodigal son twice as being dead even after the father knew he was physically alive (The father did not say “we thought he was dead”). So is Jesus using the idea of spiritual death for the prodigal son or some Deity definition for death?

What does this have to do with anything. God is the one who required a blood sacrifice. He is the first one to kill an animal to clothe Adam and Eve.
Death was required, otherwise they would have been just fine with fig leaves for clothing.

God has lots of commands, but are they not all for our sake (to help us)?

Does God take pleasure in the slaughter of animals?

You say: “God is the one who required a blood sacrifice”, but is this not for our sake?

If God is this ultimate Love, that would mean God is totally unselfish, which means He does not do stuff for His own sake, unless it is being done for the sake of others which is His desire or “His sake” in that respect.

Do you see God having a personal need for blood (being blood thirsty)?

I have pointed out my personal need for Christ blood and thus God out of Love for me has provided that blood.

And without shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.
In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace.
Again, God is the one who is saying blood is a necessity.
When God was going to kill all the firstborn of Egypt, God required the Jews to put blood on the doorposts.
Then He said, when He sees the blood, He will pass over that house and those in the house will live.
All because of the blood.
It is not like the people said they needed blood to cleanse them or appease God, God said the blood was necessary.

The OT which is just a shadow of the reality found with Christ, makes an extremely strong point for the blood cleansing and making Holy objects (the temple, the alter, the people and the house of those on Passover). The Jews had a very strong appreciation and respect for blood and would never drink the blood of animals, the blood can do stuff, but the blood of animals in the OT are symbolic of Christ’s blood, for the blood of animals personally could not “do” anything significant.

As a Christian we come along hopefully with this OT knowledge of the significance and importance placed on the blood of animals which is just a shadow of the significance and importance of Christ’s blood. Christ blood can really do something, so the wine symbolic of Christ’s blood is not swallowed and flows over our hearts cleansing our heart (making it Holy).

Again the God has made the blood of Christ a huge priority, very significant, and a requirement, so we can experience that cleansing with his blood.

If the Blood of Christ goes with Him to the grave, remains in his body at the resurrection and goes on to heaven in his new body, how would that impact God personally? Would God be unable to forgive us? It would have a huge impact on me because I would not feel my heart was cleansed by His blood, made holy, and able to stand before God. God allowed Christ’s bleeding for me.

It was still a cruel death.
The offender was required to take the knife and slit the throat of the sacrifice.
And those sheep being slaughtered today are not sacrifices. No temple, no sacrifice.

I have been told the slitting of the throat of an animal is about as humane of a death for them as you can have, since they do not know what is happening. Your throat being slit is not the physical pain as it is the mental realization.

You keep saying what Jesus did was not done in our place, but for our benefit.
What do you think would happen to us if Jesus had not died?

In some ways, would we all not be happy that the one individual we love more than life itself did not suffer. It is extremely painful for me to think about what Christ went through because of my personal sins and this is what I need to remember every week I partake of the Lord’s Supper. The only thing keeping me from losing my ability to stand is the fact at this same time the greatest Love possible for me is being expressed.

Christ is providing a way for me to be crucified (disciplined by God) for my sins and live, since I can be crucified with Christ. Going through this disciplining with Christ allows me to: know God is my wonderful Parent seeing to my disciplining, to experience the greatest Love possible, to understand how bad sin really is without physically dying, to know how much I have been forgiven of, to know I do not want to experience even more pain by further sinning, and it provides a way for me to truly feel and be justified before God, since I have been fairly/justly disciplined for my sins.

 

[Doug Melven]

Do you see God having a personal need for blood (being blood thirsty)?

I have pointed out my personal need for Christ blood and thus God out of Love for me has provided that blood.

So you are saying God crucified His Son to satisfy your blood lust?

As a Christian we come along hopefully with this OT knowledge of the significance and importance placed on the blood of animals which is just a shadow of the significance and importance of Christ’s blood. Christ blood can really do something, so the wine symbolic of Christ’s blood is not swallowed and flows over our hearts cleansing our heart (making it Holy).

Jesus said if we don't drink His blood we have no life.
When some disciples heard that they didn't walk with Jesus anymore.

Christ is providing a way for me to be crucified (disciplined by God) for my sins and live, since I can be crucified with Christ.

You being crucified for your sins is pointless as you are not a perfect sacrifice. Only a perfect sacrifice was acceptable to God.
We are crucified with Christ, not for our sins, but to put to death our old man so we can walk in newness of life.
See Galatians 2:20 and Romans 6:3