What is "hell"?

angelmom01 · Nov 8, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
This is kool... you can see a patern here, look closely concerning the angels leaving their first estate and their habitation.

The LORD is the FIRST and HE is the HABITATION

Psalm 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, ~THY HABITATION~;

Judge 1:6 And ~the angels~ which kept not THEIR FIRST estate, but LEFT their ~OWN HABITATION~, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1Sam 12:10 ~they~ cried unto the LORD, and said, WE have SINNED, because WE have FORSAKEN ~THE LORD~

2Peter 2:4 For if GOD spared not the angels that SINNED, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved UNTO judgment;

Isaiah 59:9 Therefore is judgment FAR FROM us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.

Here it shows waterless wells, elsewhere "broken cisterns". One not ABIDING IN HIM (where they would BEAR FRUIT) whose fruit withereth. Im seeing this as a heart of unbelief (departing FROM the Lord). This pertaining to holding "no water" .The LORD is not only the LIVING GOD but HE is the LIVING WATERS (that should be WELLING UP in us) WHO BELIEVE.

2Peter 2:17 ~These~ are WELLS ~WITHOUT WATER~, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jerm 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have ~FORSAKEN ME~ the fountain of LIVING WATERS and hewed them out cisterns, BROKEN CISTERNS, that ~CAN HOLD~ NO WATER.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be ~IN~ ANY OF YOU an evil heart of ~UNBELIEF~, IN departing from the LIVING GOD.

Just paterns here in wording, still looking at this actually. It speaks of God who has "BOUND" all men unto unbelief right? The words "CHAINS" are used also in relation to being bound "under darkness" but it also speaks of a visitation. Weird though how it shows so many details of Peter being bound (as it pertains to a prison) and shows chains (in their plurality) in this respect...Yeah yeah I know, its a regular prison... nothing in it but "that" (we can leave that part of it out then) LOL

I shouldnt have posted this till I had more but then I post too much and no one "gets" what the heck Im talking about anyway

Peace

Fireinfolding

Don't forget....

Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: CLOUDS they are WITHOUT WATER, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; WANDERING STARS, to whom is reserved THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS for ever.

TraderJack · Nov 8, 2007

DesertScroll said:
But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12,13

-You become a child of God, by his Spirit.

Well, that shoots to hell the notion that man born of Adam has the ability to choose to believe the Gospel of his own free will capacity, and by that "choice" is thus "born again".

Jesus explained to Nicodemus that unless a man is "born again", literally in Greek it means, "regenerated from above", he cannot even perceive or understand the kingdom of heaven preached in the Gospel.

John 3

1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Good job of exposing and debunking the Aristotelian concept of "free will" that has permeated the thoughts of many in the church.

Fireinfolding · Nov 8, 2007

angelmom01 said:
Don't forget....

Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: CLOUDS they are WITHOUT WATER, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; WANDERING STARS, to whom is reserved THE BLACKNESS OF DARKNESS for ever.

Ok kool sis TWICE DEAD, sounds like they died once and we have a second death here huh?

So we have "clouds WITHOUT WATER, and we know THE LORD is our fountain of LIVING WATER right?

Prov 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of ~a false gift~ is like CLOUDS and wind ~without rain~.

Its also HIM Who "comes to us" like the Rain shown in Psalm 72:6 Above it speaks of a "false gift" in relation to these clouds (without rain here) (or water) AS HE IS right?

The GIFT is of the WATER of LIFE right? These were TWICE DEAD (No life apparently). HE is also the TRUE GIFT (Gift OF GOD) as opposed to "the FALSE gift" a man can boast himself of. Did you notice (my favorite? ) The gift is also as a "precious Stone" (as Peter calls Christ).

Prov 17:8 A gift is as a precious stone in the eyes of him that ~hath it~

Wow... "a gift" is as a "precious Stone"? but as it pertains to the eyes of "the one" that actually HAS IT (eyes of your heart perhaps?)

Can you see the "HAVING IT" as it pertains to the Jasper Stone (also precious) in that one?

Rev 21:11 ~Having ~the glory of God~ and her light was like unto a stone ~most precious~, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal

WHO is OUR the HOPE of Glory? Here it shows she HAS IT the VERY GLORY OF GOD Its HIM Who is the Stone (most precious). Ever do a Jasper Stone study? Its killer! The Jasper Stone ironically is FIRST of the foundation stones. Her light is LIKE unto "that Stone"... Sounds like shes obtained a "like light" "in her". A TRUE gift of God is like unto the very same!

Ok ok I spin off in directions here, gosh I just love His words

So these are trees that fruit withereth must pertain to not "abiding" In Him (the doctrine of Christ) not firmly rooted and grounded in the love of God I would think. Their fruit (which is by Him) withereth here. They remain not in Him (the Vine) not having their fruit "unto" eternal life" (which is to know Him) or the love of God in Christ.

Carried by "the winds" (which clouds are as people as are the winds) can be seen as being carried about by every wind of the doctrine by the sleight of men it appears.

A good tree doesnt bring forth "corrupt fruit" not a corrupt tree good fruit.

They are called "spots"...?

Ever look up "spots" or rather "spot" in the OT?

Duet 32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

So they are "spots" in your feasts or "among you"

Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, ~among whom~ ye shine as lights in the world

2Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Hmmm... I gotta get this "spots" thang

Ok... Another thing about them is that they were "feeding themselves" (without fear). They must not have feeding the "flock of God" in mind but only themselves I would think...

Now here it shows those who "feed themselves" (with a woe behind it mind you).

Ezek 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

And Im still looking up the rest, wandering (banished from His presense) is shown in Cain. So blackness or darkness would appear to be away from His presence in such respects doesnt it?

Still looking around

Hugs sis

Fireinfolding

DesertScroll · Nov 8, 2007

visionary said:
Look at this...
Quote: Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Satan gets thrown into the lake of fire. Yet This sounds like internal combustion to me.

Here is another passage with a similar tone about the fire. I'll post the verses before it as well as they are very informative:

Zion shall be redeemed by justice, and those in her who repent, by righteousness. But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed. For you shall be ashamed of the oaks in which you delighted; and you shall blush for the gardens that you have chosen. For you shall be like an oak whose leaf withers, and like a garden without water. The strong shall become like tinder, and their work like a spark; they and their work shall burn together, with no one to quench them. Isa 1:27-31

angelmom01 · Nov 8, 2007

Well, I don't guess we can talk about "hell" without also talking about "heaven" right?

But there are THREE right? In the beginning God created THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, then A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH, and then Paul shows us the Paradise of God, which is THE THIRD HEAVEN.

Was looking at this just this morning and your verses (about "the stone most precious") reminded me of that, as they are seen in THE NEW JERUSALEM.

HER LIGHT ((was like unto)) A STONE MOST PRECIOUS

And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Good thing God can raise up stones, huh?

pippa · Nov 8, 2007

DesertScroll said:
Two problems with your short statement here, which should lead you look over the rest of what you have posted.

First:

On to the topic of torment.

Then another angel, a third, followed them, crying with a loud voice, "Those who worship the beast and its image, and receive a mark on their forheads or on their hands, they will also drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name. Rev 14:9-11

So at least some people, who are created by God, are tormented. And these people also fall into the group of Rev 20:15 since they are not the devil, his angels, the beast, nor the false prophet.

Also dealing with the judgment of God in reference to the deeds of people (brings a glimpse of Rom 6:23 which comes later, hmm....).

But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will repay according to each one's deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and homor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. Rom 2:5-10

So for wicked deeds we have wrath, fury, anguish, and distress.

So if you are trying to espouse a biblical view you need to correct these two major problems with what you are teaching in your short proclamation. The children of God are not reckoned by the flesh and God will in fact bring torment on the wicked.

i wish you hadnt pointed that out. it takes away my hope that i might have been wrong about God's cruelty.

pippa · Nov 8, 2007

DesertScroll said:
Zion shall be redeemed by justice, and those in her who repent, by righteousness. But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

wouldnt 'consumed' mean that the person doesnt exist any more?

angelmom01 · Nov 8, 2007

pippa said:
i wish you hadnt pointed that out. it takes away my hope that i might have been wrong about God's cruelty.

Pippa,

Do you understand that God will destroy ALL FLESH? And that it is THE SPIRIT that is saved in the day of the Lord?

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

We are judged and saved "by fire" (our God is A CONSUMING FIRE).

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

God came to save THAT WHICH IS LOST.

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

The word for "lost" in this verse is "apollumi"

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It is the same word used for those who "perish".

The hay, wood, and stubble being "burned up" is not necessarily a "bad" thing.

We are all "by nature the children of wrath" .

Fireinfolding · Nov 8, 2007

angelmom01 said:
Well, I don't guess we can talk about "hell" without also talking about "heaven" right?

But there are THREE right? In the beginning God created THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, then A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH, and then Paul shows us the Paradise of God, which is THE THIRD HEAVEN.

Was looking at this just this morning and your verses (about "the stone most precious") reminded me of that, as they are seen in THE NEW JERUSALEM.

HER LIGHT ((was like unto)) A STONE MOST PRECIOUS

And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Good thing God can raise up stones, huh?

Great verses, amen sis

God laid the Stone in Sion ironically its "out of Zion" the perfection of beauty, which is God hath shined.

Sion is the city of the living God, spirits of just men "made perfect". It appears if the perfection of beauty being out of which God shines is in those who have gone onto that perfection.

Let "your light" shine before men, surely He is our precious Stone (and our light) will be like unto.

I erased the rest cause I would end up going off topic the glorious topic of hell

How does one make their bed in hell and He is there?

angelmom01 · Nov 8, 2007

Wheeler said:
The "church".....I guess I should be saying "churches" (the seven churches in Revelation)....are those in the kingdom of heaven. In the kingdom of heaven we have the wheat and the tares....together. In the kingdom of heaven we have "traps" or stumbling blocks ("...things that offend...") .....people in the kingdom have set them for others....to catch them in their nets. We have people who "do iniquity"....in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13: 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The messengers gather out of his kingdom these things and these people....so that it may be cleansed...the sanctuary will be made clean (Daniel 8:14.)

Satan has been given power to wage war within the church....within the body of Christ...within the kingdom of heaven....it has been a trial. He has cast truth to the ground (Daniel 8:12). But Jesus Christ has the final victory.....the judgment will be given to the saints....the wheat.....and they will possess the kingdom of heaven without all the bad influences:

Daniel 7: 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And when the saints possess the cleansed kingdom, we are able to "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom" of our Father:

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear

We are the "soul" of Christ on this earth.....we are his body and soul......we need rescued from the enemies within the kingdom of heaven:

Psalms 35:17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions.
18 I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people.

We, as the church....scattered out through all denominations and walks of life, have stumbled over stumbling blocks.....we have all sinned.

Psalms 41: 4 I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?

Only our Lord Jesus Christ is the perfect, blameless, upright one......we are healed by him.....he atones for our sins.....even now.....what a wonderful plan of God.

Hi Wheeler,

So are ALL a part of the body of Christ? or only believers?

SpiritDriven · Nov 9, 2007

angelmom01 said:
Hi Wheeler,

So are ALL a part of the body of Christ? or only believers?

Hello....
The eventual fate of all human kind has already been decreed by God....out of the mouth of Jesus...From John 12...

32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."

Now are you going to believe what Jesus says...or what men teach ?

Doh!

Make that a rejoicing and Joyouse DOH! though....

Gary51 · Nov 9, 2007

SpiritDriven said:
Hello....
The eventual fate of all human kind has already been decreed by God....out of the mouth of Jesus...From John 12...

32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."

Now are you going to believe what Jesus says...or what men teach ?

Doh!

Make that a rejoicing and Joyouse DOH! though....

If it has already been decreed... that all will be drawn to God... Then why are Christians running around trying to save people?

If it have already been decreed... then everyone is already saved!!!

visionary · Nov 9, 2007

pippa said:
wouldnt 'consumed' mean that the person doesnt exist any more?

That is right, just like a log on the fire, it will turn to ashes.... IF satan's end is ashes..

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

why think the wicked existence [ie: burn forever]is any longer?

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

It has been used before to show the world the end.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Tavita · Nov 9, 2007

Gary51 said:
If it have already been decreed... then everyone is already saved!!!

Do you agree that God follows His own Laws?

Do you agree that the Law of Moses is prophetic in nature?

In the Law we have the Law of Redemption, whereby if a person was in debt he had to pay it off by becoming a slave. A relative could negotiate a redemption price with the owner of the slave, and after paying the price the slave then had the choice of whether to go with the *new* owner, or not. And if he did go with the new owner he was not free, he was the new owners *bondsman*.

This speaks to us of our being a slave to sin and death and to the god of this world and Jesus paying the redemption price, His blood, for us, and we are then to become His bondsman. If you notice, the price was paid ((has already been paid)) by the Redeemer of mankind, for ALL of mankind. In other words He has already purchased salvation for ALL. So, yes, all men are saved.

It also says that not all bought slaves *choose* to go with their new owner. However, in the Law of Moses it also says that ALL slaves have to be set free every Jubilee, every forty nine years. They can return to their family and property.

Lev 25:10 'You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.

So from the Law of Redemption we can see that ALL mankind has had their debts paid for and whether they accept it now or not in the Year of Jubilee they will be set free. When the bible speaks of the 'ages' to come, I sometimes wonder if these are Jubilees.

This of course doesn't mean there won't be judgment. There will be very severe judgment. Some will have worse judgment than others. However our thoughts are not His thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways, and His judgments too are higher than our judgments.

DesertScroll · Nov 9, 2007

pippa said:
wouldnt 'consumed' mean that the person doesnt exist any more?

That is why that verse is an excellent example from the OT. I'll post it again:

Zion shall be redeemed by justice, and those in her who repent, by righteousness. But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed. For you shall be ashamed of the oaks in which you delighted; and you shall blush for the gardens that you have chosen. For you shall be like an oak whose leaf withers, and like a garden without water. The strong shall become like tinder, and their work like a spark; they and their work shall burn together, with no one to quench them. Isa 1:27-31

It gives a description of what it means to be consumed and destroyed. "Like an oak whose leaf withers" and "like a garden without water".

I have heard others say that destruction is more of a ruin, a person or object which has lost the essence of its nature or function. And you can see this in quite a few passages both in the OT and the NT. I'll post some examples:
Num 21:29 (being sold) 1 Sam 9:3, 20 (lost) Isa 31:12 (unfit for use) Jer 48:34-37 (v.42 destroyed as a people v. 37-39 for a description of this destruction v.47 the fortunes of this destroyed people will even be restored)

Luke 15:1-7 (lost sheep) v.8,9 (lost coin) v.24 (lost son) Matt26:8 (wasted alabaster) Rev 11:18 (destroying those who destroy the earth, yet the earth has not ceased to exist).

Pretty devastating to anyone who wants to claim just on the basis of the word itself that it means to cease to exist.

Another poster in this thread brought up Ezek 28:18 where it was directly related to Satan. While I do agree you can make some parallels to Satan from this passage one has to remember it is about Tyre. And making this verse a foundation for an argument you would have to be very careful. Notice the words in that verse 18 "turned you to ashes on the earth". That part can be tricky in trying to relate that to the end of Satan as his end is quite clearly in the lake of fire not on the earth(Rev 20:10).

Another tricky aspect to this verse is what does "turned to ashes" mean? Is it similar to the word destruction which doesn't have the same connotation that some wish it to have? We can see what Ezekiel has to say about it.

Like pointing out v.19 of the same chapter "you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever". So Tyre in being turned to ashes shall be no more forever. Skip back a couple of chapters to chapter 26.

Then I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of long ago, and I will make you live in the world below, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living. I will bring you to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more; though sought for, you will never be found again, says the Lord God. Ezek 26:20,21

Clearly not ceasing to be at all, but they will cease to be in the land of the living (have no place in) and will not be found there, because they are in the Pit. Almost an exact parallel to the word destruction. (For Mal 4:3 keep this in mind and aslo read 1 Cor 15:25,26 and Rom 16:20 For 2 Pet 2:6 see Isa 13:19 and 14:1-27).

But if you just want a simple, straightforward response to both universalism or annihilationism then turn to Rev chapters 21 and 22. After the judgement and the wicked being thrown into the lake of fire (19:11-15) when everything is made new (20:5) the new heavens and new earth are there (21:1) and the city of God, the new Jerusalem has come down (21:2,3).

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14,15

So after everything is made new. Is everyone in the city of God? Nope. And they will never get in:

But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. Rev 21:27

And this book just happens to have been written from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8 also see Eph 1:4 Matt 25:34). So if one's name wasn't in the book when it was the deciding factor for whether or not one was to be thrown into the lake of fire you are never getting in. You can uncheck universalism for possible truth.

Back to Rev 22:14,15. All things made new, yet the wicked are still outside the city. They are still there. Not a ceasing to be but a destruction, a turning to ashes where the wicked shall not have true life, nor will they be found among those who do have true life. Uncheck annihilationism.

Beware of teachers who like to hold on to select verses and ignore the rest of scripture. And you'll notice one more thing, personal beliefs based on human emotions are always among the foundations for these two false doctrines, not the Spirit speaking thru scripture.

pippa · Nov 9, 2007

DesertScroll said:
That is why that verse is an excellent example from the OT. I'll post it again:

Zion shall be redeemed by justice, and those in her who repent, by righteousness. But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed. For you shall be ashamed of the oaks in which you delighted; and you shall blush for the gardens that you have chosen. For you shall be like an oak whose leaf withers, and like a garden without water. The strong shall become like tinder, and their work like a spark; they and their work shall burn together, with no one to quench them. Isa 1:27-31

It gives a description of what it means to be consumed and destroyed. "Like an oak whose leaf withers" and "like a garden without water".

I have heard others say that destruction is more of a ruin, a person or object which has lost the essence of its nature or function. And you can see this in quite a few passages both in the OT and the NT. I'll post some examples:
Num 21:29 (being sold) 1 Sam 9:3, 20 (lost) Isa 31:12 (unfit for use) Jer 48:34-37 (v.42 destroyed as a people v. 37-39 for a description of this destruction v.47 the fortunes of this destroyed people will even be restored)

Luke 15:1-7 (lost sheep) v.8,9 (lost coin) v.24 (lost son) Matt26:8 (wasted alabaster) Rev 11:18 (destroying those who destroy the earth, yet the earth has not ceased to exist).

Pretty devastating to anyone who wants to claim just on the basis of the word itself that it means to cease to exist.

Another poster in this thread brought up Ezek 28:18 where it was directly related to Satan. While I do agree you can make some parallels to Satan from this passage one has to remember it is about Tyre. And making this verse a foundation for an argument you would have to be very careful. Notice the words in that verse 18 "turned you to ashes on the earth". That part can be tricky in trying to relate that to the end of Satan as his end is quite clearly in the lake of fire not on the earth(Rev 20:10).

Another tricky aspect to this verse is what does "turned to ashes" mean? Is it similar to the word destruction which doesn't have the same connotation that some wish it to have? We can see what Ezekiel has to say about it.

Like pointing out v.19 of the same chapter "you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever". So Tyre in being turned to ashes shall be no more forever. Skip back a couple of chapters to chapter 26.

Then I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of long ago, and I will make you live in the world below, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living. I will bring you to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more; though sought for, you will never be found again, says the Lord God. Ezek 26:20,21

Clearly not ceasing to be at all, but they will cease to be in the land of the living (have no place in) and will not be found there, because they are in the Pit. Almost an exact parallel to the word destruction. (For Mal 4:3 keep this in mind and aslo read 1 Cor 15:25,26 and Rom 16:20 For 2 Pet 2:6 see Isa 13:19 and 14:1-27).

But if you just want a simple, straightforward response to both universalism or annihilationism then turn to Rev chapters 21 and 22. After the judgement and the wicked being thrown into the lake of fire (19:11-15) when everything is made new (20:5) the new heavens and new earth are there (21:1) and the city of God, the new Jerusalem has come down (21:2,3).

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14,15

So after everything is made new. Is everyone in the city of God? Nope. And they will never get in:

But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. Rev 21:27

And this book just happens to have been written from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8 also see Eph 1:4 Matt 25:34). So if one's name wasn't in the book when it was the deciding factor for whether or not one was to be thrown into the lake of fire you are never getting in. You can uncheck universalism for possible truth.

Back to Rev 22:14,15. All things made new, yet the wicked are still outside the city. They are still there. Not a ceasing to be but a destruction, a turning to ashes where the wicked shall not have true life, nor will they be found among those who do have true life. Uncheck annihilationism.

Beware of teachers who like to hold on to select verses and ignore the rest of scripture. And you'll notice one more thing, personal beliefs based on human emotions are always among the foundations for these two false doctrines, not the Spirit speaking thru scripture.

then God must be very very cruel. doesnt it bother anyone else here? even humans will put an animal out of its misery. i really dont understand any more whats going on. i will try to give up on this topic.

DesertScroll · Nov 9, 2007

Tavita said:
Do you agree that God follows His own Laws?

Do you agree that the Law of Moses is prophetic in nature?

In the Law we have the Law of Redemption, whereby if a person was in debt he had to pay it off by becoming a slave. A relative could negotiate a redemption price with the owner of the slave, and after paying the price the slave then had the choice of whether to go with the *new* owner, or not. And if he did go with the new owner he was not free, he was the new owners *bondsman*.

This speaks to us of our being a slave to sin and death and to the god of this world and Jesus paying the redemption price, His blood, for us, and we are then to become His bondsman. If you notice, the price was paid ((has already been paid)) by the Redeemer of mankind, for ALL of mankind. In other words He has already purchased salvation for ALL. So, yes, all men are saved.

It also says that not all bought slaves *choose* to go with their new owner. However, in the Law of Moses it also says that ALL slaves have to be set free every Jubilee, every forty nine years. They can return to their family and property.

Lev 25:10 'You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.

So from the Law of Redemption we can see that ALL mankind has had their debts paid for and whether they accept it now or not in the Year of Jubilee they will be set free. When the bible speaks of the 'ages' to come, I sometimes wonder if these are Jubilees.

This of course doesn't mean there won't be judgment. There will be very severe judgment. Some will have worse judgment than others. However our thoughts are not His thoughts and His ways are higher than our ways, and His judgments too are higher than our judgments.

While I do hold that the OT is prophetic as well as relevant today I do not think the way you are using this passage reflects that. I see a couple of problems with how you have presented it.

The slate is not just wiped clean for everyone's sins.

I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in the darkness. John 12:46

One comes out of the darkness by belief. Jesus didn't make everyone all of a sudden walk in the light, they are still in darkness unless they believe. That is what the price he paid for bought. Which is more clear in this verse:

I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he. John 8:24

The sins do remain on those who do not believe in Jesus, they aren't wiped just awaiting some recognition in some future state after judgment. They remain as they die in them.

Another example for to whom the sacrifice of Jesus affects:

If we say that we have fellowship with him while we are walking in darkness, we lie and do not do what is true; but if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6,7

So did Christ die on the cross for the world? Yes (John 3:16). Does this sacrifice purge away all sin from all sinners? No, only for those who believe.

Also I don't think your position can accommodate Matt 12:31 and the unpardonable sin.

DesertScroll · Nov 9, 2007

pippa said:
then God must be very very cruel. doesnt it bother anyone else here? even humans will put an animal out of its misery. i really dont understand any more whats going on. i will try to give up on this topic.

I warned you, it always pops up. Human righteousness versus God's righteousness.

See if you can say amen to this passage:

On that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on the one who struck them, but will lean on the Lord, the holy one of Israel, in truth. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. For though your people Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. For the Lord God of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in all the earth. Isa 10:20-23

Destruction, overflowing with righteousness, God's righteousness, with only a remnant being saved.

Also look at Rev 18 and 19 for the rejoicing over Babylon the great's fall, her torment (v. 7,10,15). And why do they rejoice? 19:1-5 They praise God for his true and just judgments to the glory of God. Amen!!

Tavita · Nov 9, 2007

DesertScroll said:
While I do hold that the OT is prophetic as well as relevant today I do not think the way you are using this passage reflects that. I see a couple of problems with how you have presented it.

The slate is not just wiped clean for everyone's sins.

I have come as a light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should not remain in the darkness. John 12:46

One comes out of the darkness by belief. Jesus didn't make everyone all of a sudden walk in the light, they are still in darkness unless they believe. That is what the price he paid for bought. Which is more clear in this verse:

I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he. John 8:24

The sins do remain on those who do not believe in Jesus, they aren't wiped just awaiting some recognition in some future state after judgment. They remain as they die in them.

Another example for to whom the sacrifice of Jesus affects:

If we say that we have fellowship with him while we are walking in darkness, we lie and do not do what is true; but if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6,7

So did Christ die on the cross for the world? Yes (John 3:16). Does this sacrifice purge away all sin from all sinners? No, only for those who believe.

Also I don't think your position can accommodate Matt 12:31 and the unpardonable sin.

I will answer you more fully later, but I did want to point out that I do believe in a severe judgment which will occur at the Great White Throne Judgment. In fact we all go through the judgments of God in this lifetime too (you know.. purged in fire to bring forth gold). Not everything concerning this belief of all men being saved can be expressed in one post here and there, it's a huge topic.

angelmom01 · Nov 9, 2007

SpiritDriven said:
Hello....
The eventual fate of all human kind has already been decreed by God....out of the mouth of Jesus...From John 12...

32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."

Now are you going to believe what Jesus says...or what men teach ?

Doh!

Make that a rejoicing and Joyouse DOH! though....

Hello SpiritDriven,

Thanks for the reply, but that doesn't answer my question.

I was asking Wheeler what he meant by "the church" ("the body of Christ"). I want to know what he is referring to (specifically) in his post about "the church".

What is "hell"?

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

beside quiet waters He restores my soul..

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beside quiet waters He restores my soul..

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