What is Hell? Who goes there? (moved from WWMC)

[Questor]

Sure, that's makes sense for you, but what if I feel its good to break into your house and free your enslaved and imprisoned cat?

Just don't tell my beagles that you took their cat.

How does this answer the OP?

 

[Mailman Dan]

Laws consists of of acts and consequences. The purpose of law is threefold: 1) to identify those behaviors that society defines as ABNORMAL. 2) to punish those people who violate societal norms.3) To "encourage" normal society to maintain its normalcy by not crossing the line into lawlessness..

Agree...

. Laws are written by man.

Ten are written by God, the basis for all our laws, btw...

God does not need laws

He wrote ten on the hearts of men.

• You shall have no other gods before me.
• You shall not make yourself any graven image. (Idolatry)
• You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
• Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.
• Honor your father and mother.
• You shall not kill.
• You shall not commit adultery.
• You shall not steal.
• You shall not lie.
• You shall not covet.

This is what "sin" is.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


We know what the law is used for...

1 Tim 1:8-10
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,



You know you have broke the law. Face it, if God is real, you can't stand before Him and say you didn't know it was wrong to lie, steal, and curse His name now can you?


Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


The law shows us our need for God's grace.



Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Don't be decieved. Laws are written for a reason. You know full well when someone is caught breaking a law, there is punishment. Gods laws are the same, otherwise they'd be called the ten suggestions.


Its the simple standard everyone will be judged by.

Heb 9:27.
For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-


So again, logic doesn't allow God to overlook evil. If God is absolutely good, He can not just forgive sin without grounds. You know, any human judge that forgave a murderer and let him go, would be a bad judge. God promised to judge the very intent of a persons heart.

So how will you do when you die?


Dan~~~>showing God must have grounds for forgiveness

 

[Vegas]

Ten are written by God, the basis for all our laws, btw...He wrote ten on the hearts of men.
This is what "sin" is.

You know you have broke the law. Face it, if God is real, you can't stand before Him and say you didn't know it was wrong to lie, steal, and curse His name now can you?
Dan~~~>showing God must have grounds for forgiveness

Whether one breaks a commandement or violates a levitical law is not the same thing as sin. You are speaking as if sin were something you could do or not do. Behavior can not be sin. Behavior is only a manifestation of instinct and motivation. Illegal behavior can be done for righteous purposes (David taking grain from the temple storage, Jesus plucking grain or healing on the Sabbath) or for innocent purposes, (like having the brakes fail on your car and you accidently kill someone or destroy their property); and legal behavior can be done for evil purposes.

So it is in our motivations that we sin... which is one reason why the Catholics speak of sins of omission. How then do we sin... by choosing self over God and our neighbor. How do we sin: by choosing neighbor over God or by choosing God over neighbor?

What is the basis for our motivation to choose one over the other? We choose from the options that we are aware are set before us. Those who have power, wealth and education have more options to choose from... whereas a poor starving person may see no option but to steal or kill to survive. Will God condemn that poor person for choosing theft and reward the rich person for shopping at Krogers Foods?
You make it sound so cut and dried: "You commit a sin you must be punished." Obviously God sees so much more than we do... it is not so cut and dried. Why do you think Jesus warned it was nearly impossible for a rich person to enter the kingdom? And he promised the poor, the meek and they that mourn the rewards of the kingdom?

 

[Mailman Dan]

Will God condemn that poor person for choosing theft and reward the rich person for shopping at Krogers Foods?

The bible says not to judge harshly those who steal to eat, yet if caught must restore 4 times the value.

You make it sound so cut and dried: "You commit a sin you must be punished."

It was God that said, the soul that sins will die. It is simple. What are the laws without punishment? Mear suggestions. "You will not" doesn't leave much room for uncertaiinty.

Obviously God sees so much more than we do... it is not so cut and dried. Why do you think Jesus warned it was nearly impossible for a rich person to enter the kingdom? And he promised the poor, the meek and they that mourn the rewards of the kingdom?

Why do you believe those warnings and statement from scripture, but not the other warnings that Jesus gave? Do the other warnings He gave not fit your religion?

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"


Don't you believe Him here?

Dan~~~>notes that the second commandment is warning of making a god to fit your personal beliefs

 

[Vegas]

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"


Don't you believe Him here?

Dan~~~>notes that the second commandment is warning of making a god to fit your personal beliefs

What do the warnings in Matt and Luke have to do with beaking the law?

 

[threedog]

I believe Hell (if it even exists beyond the figurative, which I'm not sure of) is not a place of eternal torment, nor a place destruction, but of reprimand, purification, and correction. It is a place where souls are put through immense pain and hardship (probably not literal torture) in order to learn whatever they should have learned in the mortal life (lives?) but didn't, for whatever reason. If Hell is literal, I believe it eternal in the sense that God will never say, "okay, Hell, we're done with you, you can disappear now." There will always be those who fail in mortal life, and thus there will always be those who must undergo further hardship so that they may understand why they failed, and in doing so come to repentence. However, I don't believe any soul will truly remain there for eternity. All people can make the right decision if given enough time to learn their lesson. For some, it may take eons, but God's patience is eternal, and He will always be there, waiting for them to release that which holds them back.

Dear, Gukkor,

I appreciate your thoughts in this post. God Bless you.

Threedog

 

[Vegas]

It was God that said, the soul that sins will die
Dan~~~>notes that the second commandment is warning of making a god to fit your personal beliefs

Firstly, if this is the best statement you got, you need to rethink your beliefs. "soul that sins will die". What is a soul... a person. Not the person's spirit but his personality... that which is learned and nutured in the flesh. A soul that sins will die. ALL die.

For through one man came death... and through one came also the resurrection of the dead.
If all die because of Adam, then all will be resurrected because of Jesus. We didn't need to choose to a part of Adam's "curse" so why should we have to choose to be part of Jesus' salvation?
What exactly does the second commandment say?
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Is that it? What if the third generation loves God and keeps the commandments... what then?
In Lev 26:4 "Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit." is the reward for keeping the commandments.

Don't you see the small theological problem here? If life is good and you are rich it is is sign that God favors you... conversely, if you are poor, sick and generally miserable, God must hate you. This is the opposite of what Jesus teaches.

 

[Mailman Dan]

What do the warnings in Matt and Luke have to do with beaking the law?

The word Iniquity means "lawlessness." That is what sin is, and there is punishment for sin.

Firstly, if this is the best statement you got, you need to rethink your beliefs. "soul that sins will die". What is a soul... a person. Not the person's spirit but his personality... that which is learned and nutured in the flesh. A soul that sins will die. ALL die.

The bible also speaks of a "second death." What is that to you?

Don't you see the small theological problem here? If life is good and you are rich it is is sign that God favors you... conversely, if you are poor, sick and generally miserable, God must hate you. This is the opposite of what Jesus teaches.

Your reading two different parts of the bible. OT and NT are not the same. Much of the OT was history. Levitial laws were written as mans weak attepmt to keep the ten commandments. Jesus restored the law, showing its intent by using it for the koowlegde of right and wrong. (Mark 10 for example)

Dan~~~> understands no one lives as God commands they should

 

[Vegas]

The word Iniquity means "lawlessness." That is what sin is, and there is punishment for sin. It is interesting that the Greek anomia is very similiar to the word Emile Durkheim chose to describe a state or normlessness that is the leading cause of suicide: Anomie. (Feeling that the rules don't apply to you, and society has no ability to control your life)



The bible also speaks of a "second death." What is that to you?
Nothing. What's it to you?


Your reading two different parts of the bible. OT and NT are not the same. That much is clear. Much of the OT was history. Levitial laws were written as mans weak attepmt to keep the ten commandments. How do you know the ten commandments weren't also written by man, then. Jesus restored the law, showing its intent by using it for the knowlegde of right and wrong. (Mark 10 for example)

Dan~~~> understands no one lives as God commands they should

vegas understands that most every man lives as God created him to live. Most everyone tries the best they know how, the best way using all they have learned.

 

[Soul Searcher]

vegas understands that most every man lives as God created him to live. Most everyone tries the best they know how, the best way using all they have learned.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Dan~~~> understands no one lives as God commands they should

The problem here Dan is that you are judging the actions of others based on your own I am presuming. If you choose to believe you are not doing all you can to live as God commands that is your own burden to carry. You can not however project your self incrimination on others. Everyone does the best they can with what they have been given. I have rarely come across a person who wasn't sincerely living as they feel God commands them.

~Casi~ (one who thinks we mustn't project our own failings on others)

 

[Pats]

I've tried reading this thread. Thanks for your replies and I didn't mean to drop the thread.

I just can't contemplate God's goodness right now.

 

[Catherineanne]

I realize these seem like simple questions coming from a fellow Christian. But after spending some time around some more liberal Christians, I realized there are some very different POVs on this.

I'd like to hear some non-fundamental views.

Thnx

When Our Lord was on the cross, he suffered separation from God for the first and only time in his life. He cried out in agony 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?'

There is no worse punishment, no worse hell than this. Lakes of fire have nothing to frighten any Christian, after the thought of losing God himself.

This is hell. Whether in this life, or the next, hell is separation from God. Anyone who has been in such a position will find words difficult to find, but they will all relate to extreme pain, loneliness, isolation; the words of torment.

This separation is not reserved for unbelievers. It is a well attested part of the Christian journey, and can lead to great spiritual blessing. For those who have the time and inclination, St John of the Cross describes his own experiences in this state, which he describes as the Dark Night of the Soul;

http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/saints/darknite.htm

I think the lady who recognised earth as having much in common with hell was right; it is difficult at times to find God here. He seems distinctly lacking in the Holy Land at present, and if that is not hell on earth, I do not know what is.

However, the paradox of God is that even in the midst of hell, when we believe ourselves totally alone, as Christ believed himself to be on the cross, God is still present, and still working in our lives.

Images of lakes of fire beside this are, imo, revealed as similies, parable, figurative imagery; what you will. But literal, no. A literal hell of fire would be far too 2 dimensional set beside the mystical imagery of St John, and of the experiences of our lives.

 

[Catherineanne]

I've tried reading this thread. Thanks for your replies and I didn't mean to drop the thread.

I just can't contemplate God's goodness right now.

You don't need to. Just be who you are.

God can wait.

 

[Catherineanne]

So again, logic doesn't allow God to overlook evil. If God is absolutely good, He can not just forgive sin without grounds. You know, any human judge that forgave a murderer and let him go, would be a bad judge. God promised to judge the very intent of a persons heart.

Does the clay tell the potter what he can or cannot do?

God says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Jesus said; Where are your witnesses? If they do not condemn you, then neither do I condemn you. Go in peace and sin no more.

Are you contradicting God?

 

[Pats]

You don't need to. Just be who you are.

God can wait.

Thank you, Catherineanne. That is so true.

 

[Catherineanne]

For example, would a "good" judge turn a blind eye to a murderer, and let him go free, or would a good judge remove him from society?

You continually judge God as if he is a man, which I do not believe is a spiritually healthy position to stand in.

I believe the phrase you need to ponder is; "What would Jesus do?"

And you have an example in Scripture of what he actually did do, when placed in the position of judge towards a guilty woman. Why do you ignore this?

 

[Catherineanne]

Thank you, Catherineanne. That is so true.

I often have to retreat when things get too much. It is a very sensible, very Christian thing to do.

Peace be with you.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Does the clay tell the potter what he can or cannot do?

God says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Jesus said; Where are your witnesses? If they do not condemn you, then neither do I condemn you. Go in peace and sin no more.

Are you contradicting God?

God did show what He will do. However, you ignore this part of God.

Romans 1:18
[ God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness ] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

Romans 2:5
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Romans 13:4
For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
(you say thats wrong)

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Revelation 14:10
he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:19
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Somehow you lack the understanding that those without the payment of sin, don't get free Grace.

1 Corinthians 5:13
But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Godd is good. He gave us a way out through Christ. But to say that God is not going to bring judgement and wrath on those who do evil, is absolutley wrong. Please read the scripture.

Dan~~~>can't cut out that half of God

 

[Gukkor]

God did show what He will do. However, you ignore this part of God.

Romans 1:18
[ God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness ] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

Romans 2:5
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Romans 13:4
For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
(you say thats wrong)

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Revelation 14:10
he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:19
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Somehow you lack the understanding that those without the payment of sin, don't get free Grace.

1 Corinthians 5:13
But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Godd is good. He gave us a way out through Christ. But to say that God is not going to bring judgement and wrath on those who do evil, is absolutley wrong. Please read the scripture.

Dan~~~>can't cut out that half of God

Then we are universally damned, for Christ was insufficient. Either the debt is paid or it isn't. He died for all men, not just Christians.