What is Hell? Who goes there? (moved from WWMC)

[Mailman Dan]

Would you concede that fear (as used in this context) is not the same thing as terror?

Yes, I see fear and terror as two different things. Why?


The question for you is, do you believe God is good?

(if so, why or why not?)


Dan~~~>been using these tags since the net was born

 

[Vegas]

Yes, I see fear and terror as two different things. Why?


The question for you is, do you believe God is good?

(if so, why or why not?)


Dan~~~>been using these tags since the net was born

Why? Because earlier you said we should fear God... implicitly because of hell and judgement.
Is God good? Yes. I would say by definition, that which is good is of God and that which is of God is good.
Why? I have to think about that for awhile... I have an idea but it doesn't translate well into paragraph form.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Why? Because earlier you said we should fear God... implicitly because of hell and judgement.
Is God good? Yes. I would say by definition, that which is good is of God and that which is of God is good.
Why? I have to think about that for awhile... I have an idea but it doesn't translate well into paragraph form.

Perhaps because that is what you experience in your life?

I don't see that fear would be a good thing in regards to God. Fear is a negative motivator and I don't think God is negative.

 

[Vegas]

Perhaps because that is what you experience in your life?

I don't see that fear would be a good thing in regards to God. Fear is a negative motivator and I don't think God is negative.

If you are talking to me, no, I don't define God as good because of my experience. I define good as of God because that is the only possible definition that makes sense, ultimately. Even if I use my working definition of that which is for others' benefit as opposed to my own benefit... it still comes down to subjective analysis. God is the ultimate objective authority which we can not judge nor call to task (see Job).
If God is the source of good than God must be good.

 

[Cassiopeia]

If you are talking to me, no, I don't define God as good because of my experience. I define good as of God because that is the only possible definition that makes sense, ultimately. Even if I use my working definition of that which is for others' benefit as opposed to my own benefit... it still comes down to subjective analysis. God is the ultimate objective authority which we can not judge nor call to task (see Job).
If God is the source of good than God must be good.

Yes I was speaking to you. So you only conclude then that God is good by reasoning?

 

[Vegas]

Yes I was speaking to you. So you only conclude then that God is good by reasoning?

How else am I to know what good is?

 

[Cassiopeia]

How else am I to know what good is?

I can understand the importance of reasoning but without the use of our inner instincts...ie...feelings and using our personal experiences, reasoning becomes only speculation.

 

[Vegas]

I can understand the importance of reasoning but without the use of our inner instincts...ie...feelings and using our personal experiences, reasoning becomes only speculation.

Sure, that's makes sense for you, but what if I feel its good to break into your house and free your enslaved and imprisoned cat?

 

[Cassiopeia]

Sure, that's makes sense for you, but what if I feel its good to break into your house and free your enslaved and imprisoned cat?

Sorry ...I am not following you...can you connect the dots here? What does this have to do with the supposition that God is good.

 

[threedog]

TattedSaint and I are totally different posters. I would never have the guts to get a tattoo (hate needles) .

Thanks!



I guess I'm not sure where this is coming from biblically. Off the top of my head I can only think of one example to support my view of man's sin: the lady that is about to get stoned for adultery (he who is without sin, and so forth). The part I am thinking of is that once everyone leaves, Jesus tells her "Go, and sin no more." He is rebuking the temple-dudes for their hypocrisy and entreating her to simply change her life after that point.



This is the danger of denying one's own free-will. It takes a lot of study to understand what precisely is meant by the claim that man is presdestined for destruction. "Work out your own faith in Fear and Trembling", too much effort at understanding God's will drives a person nuts (or into divinity school ).



I simply disagree, I know for a fact that I myself freely choose to sin, I am not overcome by some outside force. This is the insidious power of Sin, it entices our freedom and invites us along the wide and easy road.


Heck, I'M disappointed in how we turned out and I dont know squat!

I agree dear brother, that choosing to sin freely doesn't require the feeling of an outside force. If sin is inbread in us, what outside force is necessary for us to feel we are choosing our sin? Nothing! I view my own sinful nature as a natural condition to overcome through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This is my hope. Yes, I'm aware I can choose what path to take, but I also aware of the struggle that awaits the core of my sinful nature. There were a lot of good things you said in your response. And I thank you.

Threedog

 

[Vegas]

Sorry ...I am not following you...can you connect the dots here? What does this have to do with the supposition that God is good.

but without the use of our inner instincts...ie...feelings and using our personal experiences, reasoning becomes only speculation.

If you rely on feelings for what is good, then everyone can rely on their feelings as well. If I feel it necessary and a good thing to free all enslaved and imprisoned creatures of God, then I can justify breaking into your house and liberating your pet... and all that entails.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Why? Because earlier you said we should fear God... implicitly because of hell and judgement.
Is God good? Yes. I would say by definition, that which is good is of God and that which is of God is good.
Why? I have to think about that for awhile..

Because *if* God is good, do you think He will punish evil?

For example, would a "good" judge turn a blind eye to a murderer, and let him go free, or would a good judge remove him from society?

I don't see that fear would be a good thing in regards to God. Fear is a negative motivator and I don't think God is negative.

Depends.

1. Where is your basis for saying fear is always bad?

2. Where do you draw your concept of God?
(scripture paints both positive and negitive re-enforement used by God)

Dan~~~>suggest looking for solid grounds for beliefs

 

[Mailman Dan]

If you rely on feelings for what is good, then everyone can rely on their feelings as well. If I feel it necessary and a good thing to free all enslaved and imprisoned creatures of God, then I can justify breaking into your house and liberating your pet... and all that entails.

Good point. I think right and wrong were already set standards set by God. Just a few simple ground rules for all others to be based on...

Say....ten of them.....

Dan~~~>will come back to that later

 

[Vegas]

Because *if* God is good, do you think He will punish evil?

For example, would a "good" judge turn a blind eye to a murderer, and let him go free, or would a good judge remove him from society?

No, I don't think God punishes... I think evil is its own punishment. A good judge follows law and precedent. A good God loves, shows mercy and forgives.

 

[Cassiopeia]

No, I don't think God punishes... I think evil is its own punishment. A good judge follows law and precedent. A good God loves, shows mercy and forgives.

Good point. I also think that I left out something in a previous post...I think you have to use...reasoning, feeling and instincts to discern things. You can not use one independantly and hope to be correct.

 

[Mailman Dan]

No, I don't think God punishes... I think evil is its own punishment. A good judge follows law and precedent. A good God loves, shows mercy and forgives.

Good point. I also think that I left out something in a previous post...I think you have to use...reasoning, feeling and instincts to discern things. You can not use one independantly and hope to be correct.

So, by the same standard, you would also think that a man who rapes and kills a child, should be set free by a forgiving judge? Even if it was your child, if the judge is truely god-like, he would show forgiveness and let the guy walk?

In the same way, God doesn't care when one of His children are killed either?

Where do you get this information from?

Dan~~~>trying to find this basis for that type of reasoning

 

[Vegas]

So, by the same standard, you would also think that a man who rapes and kills a child, should be set free by a forgiving judge? Even if it was your child, if the judge is truely god-like, he would show forgiveness and let the guy walk?

In the same way, God doesn't care when one of His children are killed either?

A man (rapist, murderer, thief, jay-walker) is judged by law. Laws are written by man. A law contains in it presumptions of value and worth. Laws consists of of acts and consequences. The purpose of law is threefold: 1) to identify those behaviors that society defines as ABNORMAL. 2) to punish those people who violate societal norms.3) To "encourage" normal society to maintain its normalcy by not crossing the line into lawlessness..
God does not need laws... God authority and power rest in truth. Yes, the wicked prosper and the good suffer... but peace and joy are not about pain or pleasure and are not about riches and health and fame.

As a theological note: Why would God care if someone dies or not? What has been lost? Has not an eternal soul been freed from it's mortal shackles and let loose into the eternal cosmos of paradise? Morning as we practice it should not be so selfish that we weep over the loss of a friend, but we weep for those who do not share the joy of the "translation" of their beloved. When my Grandmother died, I wept for my Grandfather, not for my Grandmother.

 

[Cassiopeia]

So, by the same standard, you would also think that a man who rapes and kills a child, should be set free by a forgiving judge? Even if it was your child, if the judge is truely god-like, he would show forgiveness and let the guy walk?

In the same way, God doesn't care when one of His children are killed either?

Where do you get this information from?

Dan~~~>trying to find this basis for that type of reasoning

My word...how does what I was saying get drug into this? I am talking about how a person discerns what he holds to be right...that is it. Discern in a good way. That is all I was talking about.

 

[elman]

What is Hell? the grave, the place of the dead, the unseen, the concealed.

Who goes there? Everyone.

I would add the non existing, but of course I don't agree that everyone dies and becomes non existent. I think those who love others live forever.

 

[elman]

Just... doesn't sound like Hell to me, especially with that whole bit about the sun.

Anyway, the reason I brought this up is that the Jews when the Hebrew Bible was written did not have the concept of Hell. Still don't. Why doesn't it appear until the New Testament?

Maybe that's because that version is corrupt. The KJV or original hebrew is best in my opinion. Here's another verse for you: "Nahum 1:9, 10 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

I think you are correct and I think the Christian view is also death, and non existence or should be. I think the idea of eternal torture after death came from the Greeks and it also may have come from Zarathrustra.