What is Hell? Who goes there? (moved from WWMC)

[Pats]

MOD HAT ON:

Hello!

I need to point out this rule:



Just FYI (because most of us don't know what all of these things are), the doctrine of Annihiliationism suggests that the fate of the wicked is destruction.

I'm going to leave the thread open for now, please refrain from posting about Annihilationism in WWMC.

If the OP would like this thread moved to Liberal Theology I would be happy to do so, where discussion of Annihilationism may continue.

MOD HAT OFF

Yes, thank you. My mistake.

I didn't want to see it debated amongst non liberals, so I thought I was in the right forum, but being how little I know of Anhialation myself, didn't even think about that.

 

[Gukkor]

I believe Hell (if it even exists beyond the figurative, which I'm not sure of) is not a place of eternal torment, nor a place destruction, but of reprimand, purification, and correction. It is a place where souls are put through immense pain and hardship (probably not literal torture) in order to learn whatever they should have learned in the mortal life (lives?) but didn't, for whatever reason. If Hell is literal, I believe it eternal in the sense that God will never say, "okay, Hell, we're done with you, you can disappear now." There will always be those who fail in mortal life, and thus there will always be those who must undergo further hardship so that they may understand why they failed, and in doing so come to repentence. However, I don't believe any soul will truly remain there for eternity. All people can make the right decision if given enough time to learn their lesson. For some, it may take eons, but God's patience is eternal, and He will always be there, waiting for them to release that which holds them back.

 

[constance]

MOD HAT ON:

HI! This thread has been moved from WWMC to Liberal Theology at the OP's request. Please feel free to discuss Annihilationism and any other views on the OP as you see fit as long as it applies to the OP's request of liberal/non-fundamentalist viewpoints.

Thanks!

Constance

MOD HAT OFF:

 

[threedog]

To me I believe Hell is an absence of God. I'm not certain of what this absence means, but for me being cut off from Him would be enough to hurt. I don't know that that reall makes sense.

Hell is sometimes referred to as eternal damnation. Isn't eternal damnation never being with Christ? Never knowing Him? This brings up another thought, can one be saved AFTER they die? If I died and went to Hell because God was unpleased with how I had lived my life, could I be saved in Hell and travel to Heavan? I don't know...

Oh, and I <3 Abraham, I totally agree with you. We all deserve Hell. This is a showing of God's grace. His amazing ability to pay our own debts for us. We should be so lucky...

How amazing is He?

Jon-Michael

How can we deserve hell when we were designed with a sinful nature, designed to fail. Let's agree we are a flawed species in this world. Without God's grace we fail by our very nature. We are acting out in ways we were designed. Yes we have choice, but sin has proven more powerful. That is an objective fact, otherwise God would not have destroyed the world in the Great Flood if choice or our gifts would overcome the power of sin. We were hopeless, so God started over with a new gene pool. It is that simple.

If we were able to conquer sin by mere choice or the abilities of our reason we wouldn't need the holy spirit. We wouldn't need God to overcome our evil ways. Put your head in a wild lion's mouth you expect the lion to bite your head. You wouldn't be surprised by that? It is in that lions very nature to act violent. Now, make a human covet or need something bad enough and expect him to steal or kill for it. Mankind will utlimately use those wonderful gifts for evil and sometimes good. It is our nature to behave in this erractic way and nothing has really changed since Cain and Able.

Threedog

 

[Abiel]

I am interested in Orthodox teaching on hell- whichat the risk of hopelessly misrepresenting (forgive me) I understand to be that heaven and hell are the same thing. The brightness and firey-ness of God's presence, but whereas some thrive in it, for others it burns.

Somebody needs to post it better than that!

 

[Im_A]

I am interested in Orthodox teaching on hell- whichat the risk of hopelessly misrepresenting (forgive me) I understand to be that heaven and hell are the same thing. The brightness and firey-ness of God's presence, but whereas some thrive in it, for others it burns.

Somebody needs to post it better than that!

For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefs#Eastern_Orthodoxy

 

[I <3 Abraham]

How can we deserve hell when we were designed with a sinful nature, designed to fail. Let's agree we are a flawed species in this world. Without God's grace we fail by our very nature. We are acting out in ways we were designed. Yes we have choice, but sin has proven more powerful. That is an objective fact, otherwise God would not have destroyed the world in the Great Flood if choice or our gifts would overcome the power of sin. We were hopeless, so God started over with a new gene pool. It is that simple.

If we were able to conquer sin by mere choice or the abilities of our reason we wouldn't need the holy spirit. We wouldn't need God to overcome our evil ways. Put your head in a wild lion's mouth you expect the lion to bite your head. You wouldn't be surprised by that? It is in that lions very nature to act violent. Now, make a human covet or need something bad enough and expect him to steal or kill for it. Mankind will utlimately use those wonderful gifts for evil and sometimes good. It is our nature to behave in this erractic way and nothing has really change since Cain and Able.

Threedog

I disagree with some things you are saying and agree with other parts. Mainly my disagrement comes from my perception that you equate the aggregate actions of humanity with some sort of nature that God instilled in us. I believe you put it that we are "designed to fail".

I agree that there are many MANY things that Humanity does that are so bad that even our vile and degenerate sense of morality takes offense.

My point, however, is that one can only judge oneself. An honest look at my own life and sins CLEARLY demonstrates that I have chosen the easy, blatantly sinful path more often than not.

I don't blame God for my own actions, that is childish. I know that I dont deserve eternal life, I'm a sinner through and through. This is what makes Grace what it is: it is a gift, not a reward. The sins of Humanity are our own fault. To be convinced of this all one needs to do is examine one's own life with clarity.

 

[red77]

This is as simply as I can put it. Hell (damnation, eternal torment, fire and brimstone &C &C) is nothing less than we deserve.

Looking for one moment at the state of the world is enough to convince a rational person that Humanity is the most violent, cruel, dishonest, self aggrandizing and self indulgent creature in all of creation. We alone are truly subject to Sin's power in the world because we alone are rationally aware that violence, cruelty, dishonesty, self aggrandizement and self indulgence are purely destuctive and simply ought not be practiced. In spite of the divine gift of reason, each and every person falls victim to sin throughout their life. Indeed, there is no portion of our lives in which Sin's influence is absent.

What we deserve is God's retribution for our sin, for God to cease to hold back righteous anger and, at the very least, destroy our souls as failed experiments.

At the very least, I know that I deserve nothing less.

Edit to add:
The question of hell ought not be "Who is going to go there" but rather "Why haven't I been put there already"

Edit to add further:
Sorry to the OP, this doesn't seem like much of a liberal's viewpoint but it really is, I promise.

we are also capable of profound love, alrtuism, and selflessness as well as the negatives u describe, u do have a point in that mankind is just as capable of acts of tremendous cruelty and barbarism........its for this that I dont equate God with torment and torture of the most unimaginably horrific kind as the traditionalist view of hell.........

 

[Im_A]

I disagree with some things you are saying and agree with other parts. Mainly my disagrement comes from my perception that you equate the aggregate actions of humanity with some sort of nature that God instilled in us. I believe you put it that we are "designed to fail".

i think it may be easy to do this and i won't say it is right or wrong to say "we are designed to fall". here the story explains Adam and Eve created, then they made a choice, which leads to this sinful nature.

so an all powerful being gives free-will, but free-will in of itself makes God powerless, because of the sheer definition of free-will, because it came from a supposed omnipotent being, whom is also all knowing, which in turn must know about the fall before even creation. plus, why would God need to give any warnings, if we were designed for perfection and holiness? why would God not want His creation to become like Him? i personally think it is rather plain and clear...human beings were designed to fall, because there's no reason to give warnings to anyone that has the capability to fall. plus, the fall clearly explains why the Father has the Will of Jesus to come to earth and save it, or it could be seen that Christ is the scapegoat of the failure of the Father, but it is hard to see it as a failure, if the the verse in isaiah is right along the lines that God created evil and goodness.

I agree that there are many MANY things that Humanity does that are so bad that even our vile and degenerate sense of morality takes offense.

My point, however, is that one can only judge oneself. An honest look at my own life and sins CLEARLY demonstrates that I have chosen the easy, blatantly sinful path more often than not.

I don't blame God for my own actions, that is childish. I know that I dont deserve eternal life, I'm a sinner through and through. This is what makes Grace what it is: it is a gift, not a reward. The sins of Humanity are our own fault. To be convinced of this all one needs to do is examine one's own life with clarity.

it isn't blaming God to say we were designed to fall. some being we can't see, feel, touch, hear being blamed for mistakes is childish and i'll go further to say it is idiotic. this being giving free-will through His all powerful nature, gives the responsibility away from Himself and on to the creation.

but i think the confliction shows a reason why humanity hasn't been wiped away. how could God give anything but grace and patience?

 

[non-religious]

I occasionally dip into a Christian Think-Tank site and I found this article which I tend to agree with. It's worth taking a look:-

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part5.html

 

[Im_A]

I occasionally dip into a Christian Think-Tank site and I found this article which I tend to agree with. It's worth taking a look:-

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part5.html

so the argument is basically because of the fact that evil doesn't thrwart God's intention to bless the good, that means it's ok for God to have created us, even though He would know that suffering would befall His creation?

i agree with one part of that article. it is a huge sadistic belief to say that God shouldn't have created us because He knew we would fall and create suffering. my post was not saying that God shouldn't have created us.

and i agree with his point because evil doesn't even need to exist for God to bless the good, but i don't think it explains anything in regards to the question.

maybe i missed the point non-religious?

 

[Mailman Dan]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately, about how too many come to Christ for fear of hell rather than love of Him.

I belive fear, in a bibical sence, is a good reason to obey God.


Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 19:23[FONT=&quot]
The fear of the LORD leads to life: [/FONT]


Jude 1:23[FONT=&quot]
but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

[/FONT] Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.


I guess ones opinion of what hell is, will depend on their bibical beliefs. If you trust scripture, your beliefs will be based on something...

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Dan~~~>looking for solid foundations for beliefs

 

[Vegas]

I belive fear, in a bibical sence, is a good reason to obey God.Dan~~~>looking for solid foundations for beliefs

But do you think that any of those references to fear are about pull the covers over your head, pee your pants terror? Or are they about reverence and a uunderstanding of the complete "otherness" of God? OK that's a rhetorical question. Would you concede that fear (as used in this context) is not the same thing as terror?
vegas-----> enjoys Dan's tags

 

[threedog]

I disagree with some things you are saying and agree with other parts. Mainly my disagrement comes from my perception that you equate the aggregate actions of humanity with some sort of nature that God instilled in us. I believe you put it that we are "designed to fail".

I agree that there are many MANY things that Humanity does that are so bad that even our vile and degenerate sense of morality takes offense.

My point, however, is that one can only judge oneself. An honest look at my own life and sins CLEARLY demonstrates that I have chosen the easy, blatantly sinful path more often than not.

I don't blame God for my own actions, that is childish. I know that I dont deserve eternal life, I'm a sinner through and through. This is what makes Grace what it is: it is a gift, not a reward. The sins of Humanity are our own fault. To be convinced of this all one needs to do is examine one's own life with clarity.

I appreciate your thoughts Abraham. I pay close attention to anything you offer. I would just say you believe you're a sinner by choice, I'm strongly suggesting we are sinners by nature and that power effects our choices. That is why it is a struggle of the flesh and it consumes most of humanity. The evidence is all around us. However, The good news is through Christ we can change our core. But this is a supernatural intervention of the Holy spirit to overcome our core nature of sin. I would blame God for our plight if I didn't believe in his ultimate wisdom and redemption of mankind. He created us and I didn't create myself. By design God filled me with emotions of love, hate etc. I can express them, but i didn't create them. I wouldn't know where to begin.

I do believe God will be just in showing us the way. What I don't understand is why we were created in the first place if mankinds ultimate destinity is hell...except a few who are saved.

Also, free will and free choice are no match for our core nature of sin. A person may choose Jesus, but the holy spirit must change you supernaturally. Free will or choice has not any consistent power over sin...Jesus does however.

God loves us, but he has to be dissapointed in how we turned out. The Great Flood is evidence of that.

I may destroy a snake because it is a snake...but I would question if the snake deserved its fate. Threedog

 

[Vegas]

God loves us, but he has to be dissapointed in how we turned out. The Great Flood is evidence of that.

I can tell you are clearly a seeker and that is a good thing! Just be clear that evidence of a world wide flood is very very sparse. If the flood story which appears in many cultures is not a world wide occurance, but a reoccurring event in limited geographical locations and it is exaggerated in tale for moral purposes... it becomes much less clear that God is dissappointed in us... AFTER ALL... God created us and said it was good. (God is neither a liar nor a shabby workman)

 

[threedog]

I can tell you are clearly a seeker and that is a good thing! Just be clear that evidence of a world wide flood is very very sparse. If the flood story which appears in many cultures is not a world wide occurance, but a reoccurring event in limited geographical locations and it is exaggerated in tale for moral purposes... it becomes much less clear that God is dissappointed in us... AFTER ALL... God created us and said it was good. (God is neither a liar nor a shabby workman)

I appreciate your caution. Threedog

 

[BillR]

I am interested in Orthodox teaching on hell- whichat the risk of hopelessly misrepresenting (forgive me) I understand to be that heaven and hell are the same thing. The brightness and firey-ness of God's presence, but whereas some thrive in it, for others it burns.

Somebody needs to post it better than that!

Many do not recognize the fact as they ought, that Satan has got men fast asleep in sin and that it is his great device to keep them so. He does not care what we do if he can do that. We may sing songs about the sweet by and by, preach sermons and say prayers until doomsday, and he will never concern himself about us, if we don't wake anybody up. But if we awake the sleeping sinner he will gnash on us with his teeth. This is our work - to wake people up."
Catherine Booth

"Can we go too fast in saving souls? If anyone still wants a reply, let him ask the lost souls in Hell."
William Booth

I'm sure they think that Heaven and hell are not the same.

 

[Vegas]

Catherine Booth
William Booth
I'm sure they think that Heaven and hell are not the same.

The founders of The Salvation Army could hardly be considered ORTHODOX in the context of the OP. (He is referring to the Eastern Orthodox Church's teachings on Heaven and Hell)

The Booths were Methodists that didn't like the poor being treated unfairly by the Methodist congregations and wanted to dedicate their lives to serving the poor.

 

[Soul Searcher]

What is Hell? the grave, the place of the dead, the unseen, the concealed.

Who goes there? Everyone.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

I appreciate your thoughts Tattedsaint.

TattedSaint and I are totally different posters. I would never have the guts to get a tattoo (hate needles) .

I pay close attention to anything you offer.

Thanks!

I would just say you believe you're a sinner by choice, I'm strongly suggesting we are sinners by nature and that power effects our choices. That is why it is a struggle of the flesh and it consumes most of humanity. The evidence is all around us. However, The good news is through Christ we can change our core. But this is a supernatural intervention of the Holy spirit to overcome our core nature of sin. I would blame God for our plight if I didn't believe in his ultimate wisdom and redemption of mankind.

I guess I'm not sure where this is coming from biblically. Off the top of my head I can only think of one example to support my view of man's sin: the lady that is about to get stoned for adultery (he who is without sin, and so forth). The part I am thinking of is that once everyone leaves, Jesus tells her "Go, and sin no more." He is rebuking the temple-dudes for their hypocrisy and entreating her to simply change her life after that point.

I do believe God will be just in showing us the way. What I don't understand is why we were created in the first place if mankinds ultimate destinity is hell...except a few who are saved.

This is the danger of denying one's own free-will. It takes a lot of study to understand what precisely is meant by the claim that man is presdestined for destruction. "Work out your own faith in Fear and Trembling", too much effort at understanding God's will drives a person nuts (or into divinity school ).

Also, free will and free choice are no match for our core nature of sin. A person may choose Jesus, but the holy spirit must change you supernaturally. Free will or choice has not any consistent power over sin...Jesus does however.

I simply disagree, I know for a fact that I myself freely choose to sin, I am not overcome by some outside force. This is the insidious power of Sin, it entices our freedom and invites us along the wide and easy road.

God loves us, but he has to be dissapointed in how we turned out. The Great Flood is evidence of that.

Heck, I'M disappointed in how we turned out and I dont know squat!