What is Hell? Who goes there? (moved from WWMC)

non-religious · Jul 28, 2006

[Casiopeia]We are all God's children.

What about the verse in John 1:12 that says "to all those who recieved Him and believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Doesn't sound like we are all His children to me....

Cassiopeia · Jul 28, 2006

non-religious said:
What about the verse in John 1:12 that says "to all those who recieved Him and believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Doesn't sound like we are all His children to me....

um...man wrote that not Jesus. Not only that but written long after his death. As I have said before, it is not a reliable source consistantly because you show me that and I bet if I go to the concordance of my Bible, I can find many more to contradict you.

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

Mailman Dan said:
Why do you believe that God will not punish evil in the way the bible describes?

First, because we do not have the right to determine what God actually regards as evil. Some things are pretty clear, such as genocide, and some are not. God must have his own way of dealing with mass murderers, but I do not know what that is, and neither does anyone else.

Second, because, as I have already told you several times, when we have an example of Jesus Christ standing in judgement on a person who is undoubtedly guilty, and who is not heard to express remorse or repentance (although doubtless feeling it after being caught, as we all would) is shown mercy rather than condemned out of hand.

If the behaviour of Our Lord contradicts the picture of God painted in the Bible, then, on historical principles, I take Our Lord as primary evidence, and the Bible as secondary.

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

Mailman Dan said:
John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Condemned to what exactly?

This is the problem when you start to play Bible Verse Poker. You quote the next verse, then I interpret, then you counter interpret, and we get nowhere.

You need the whole picture, from Genesis to Revelation, in order to get the context of what you ask. But you repeatedly ignore any counter evidence of God's love.

The simple answer to your question, however, is that the person is 'condemned' to not know God, but this is not meant as a literal eternal condemnation; it is a temporary state until they learn. John brings in his gospel the message of salvific incarnation; Jesus is God's own Son, come into the world to bring God's life, so that all who believe in him have eternal life, and thus are already judged. John is saying the Kingdom is with us already; those who believe are already in the kingdom, those who do not are already in hell, because they are separated from God. Behold, the Kingdom of God, it is with you.

Verses 15 - 21 spell out this message, which summarises the whole message of John, which in turn summarises the whole message of the Bible; God reconciling mankind to himself through his Son.

This is not a message of condemnation as you are trying to present it. It is a message of reconciliation and of mercy. To present the Gospels as a message of condemnation for sin, is to distort their very heart, imo.

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

Mailman Dan said:
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

How do you overlook this?

How do you? Name me one person, other than Christ and his mother, who this list would not apply to.

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

Mailman Dan said:
BTW, in another point of view, what type of bible verse do you think would be needed to prove to you that such a place is real? What exactly would it need to say?

There is no Bible verse that can take primacy over God himself, as revealed in the Gospels, the OT, the NT and in my life, through the Holy Spirit, and through the Church and its saints.

For a Bible verse to take precedent over God himself, would make the Bible into a god, and my Bible is not a god. I revere it for what it is, but I do not plate it in gold and worship it.

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

Casiopeia said:
I would also like to point out to you Danny, that just because Catherineanne doesn't parot scary scriptures, is no cause to accuse her of not reading her scriptures and particularly not in depth. I have found her to be quite lucid and well read. Her life is not fear based.

Almost. I have complex post traumatic stress disorder, which is about as fear based a condition as a person can get, and very debilitating.

But you are right in suggesting that I do not fear God. To have a God who would add fear of damnation to this mix would be to have a sadist for a God, and my God is no sadist. He has a lot of questions to answer, but not that one.

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

Gukkor said:
Just out of curiosity, any particular reason why you made "liar" bold?

I suspect he thinks the Holy Spirit told him to do it, to convict me (inter alia) of bearing false witness about the Bible. Sadly, it did not work, because I am totally blind to my sin, and will therefore continue to wallow in it. Hey ho.

Condemned to be thrown into a lake of fire for all eternity for preaching a gospel of love, mercy and reconciliation. That makes sense. I wonder if I will find Jesus there? He too was condemned by man.

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

Mailman Dan said:
I'm trying to save souls by showing them why they need Christ.

You do not have the power to save souls, nor to condemn souls. Only God can do these things. For someone who thinks he fears God, you tread some very thin ice.

You are called to love God, and to love your brothers and sisters, as Christ loves you. Nothing more, and nothing less. You are not following that call by trying to frighten people, and, far worse, by denying to them the reality of God's love.

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

non-religious said:
What about the verse in John 1:12 that says "to all those who recieved Him and believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Doesn't sound like we are all His children to me....

Racism is a function of humanity, not of divinity, imo. Ergo, any verses revealing racism or exclusivity reveal rather more of their human than of their divine author. There are plenty of other verses which contradict them, and which clearly reveal another, far more difficult path.

It is easy to be racist; it is easy to hate and condemn. Because it is easy, this is a big hint that it is the human way, not God's way. God's way is the narrow path of forgiveness, reconciliation and mercy; of loving our enemies and doing good to those who hurt us.

non-religious · Jul 28, 2006

[Casiopeia]um...man wrote that not Jesus. Not only that but written long after his death. As I have said before, it is not a reliable source consistantly because you show me that and I bet if I go to the concordance of my Bible, I can find many more to contradict you.

Um....well go for it.... I don't buy this everyone who is born is automatically a child of God. I'm more than willing to be told differently and if you have the verses that specifically illustrate the fact that every child born is therefore a child of God I'll happily eat my hat.....

Catherineanne · Jul 28, 2006

non-religious said:
Um....well go for it.... I don't buy this everyone who is born is automatically a child of God. I'm more than willing to be told differently and if you have the verses that specifically illustrate the fact that every child born is therefore a child of God I'll happily eat my hat.....

I hope it is a straw hat; it might make a passable Shredded Wheat.

I invite you to consider Genesis. Mankind is made in the image of God, male and female. One species.

If every single man, woman and child is made in the image of God (as Genesis says), then every man, woman and child is a child of God, in the sense that we reflect the image of the one who made us, and carry something of him within us.

There are plenty of Bible verses which reflect this point of view.

The alternative, of saying that any human being, made by God, in the image of God, is actually not a child of God but of Satan, is very bizarre. The best Satan can hope for is (temporary) step father status, but he is barren, and has no children of his own; he can neither love nor create life.

Mailman Dan · Jul 28, 2006

I suspect he thinks the Holy Spirit told him to do it, to convict me (inter alia) of bearing false witness about the Bible. Sadly, it did not work, because I am totally blind to my sin, and will therefore continue to wallow in it. Hey ho.

Obviously, your not reading the responces. If it fact you have, then you just lied....

I stated it has to do with the gateway search engine. When I look for key words, it highlights them. For example, more scripture that counters your claim.

Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

So please read the post before slandering, ok?
(though kind of used to it here)

How do you? Name me one person, other than Christ and his mother, who this list would not apply to.

Finially! Thats exactly what the bible says. By the law, no man will be justified before God. (Romans 3:19) The bible also states that no one is "righteous." Its so important to understand that, so you can understand what Jesus did.

First, because we do not have the right to determine what God actually regards as evil. Some things are pretty clear, such as genocide, and some are not. God must have his own way of dealing with mass murderers, but I do not know what that is, and neither does anyone else.

The bible states clearly what God declears evil. It also states judgement and punishment. No, it isn't our place to judge, but warning of judgement is prefectly sound.

Heb 9:27.
For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-

[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

Dan~~~>loves the input (but wishes there was more scripture involved)
[/FONT]

Charlie V · Jul 28, 2006

non-religious said:
What about the verse in John 1:12 that says "to all those who recieved Him and believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Doesn't sound like we are all His children to me....

If you believe the Bible, "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord."

Which would make John 1:12 about everyone.

Charlie

non-religious · Jul 28, 2006

[Charlie V]If you believe the Bible, "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord."

Which would make John 1:12 about everyone.

Charlie

I fail to see the connection or relevance here....

Soul Searcher · Jul 28, 2006

Mailman Dan said:
Finially! Thats exactly what the bible says. By the law, no man will be justified before God. (Romans 3:19)

Yes but it also says, Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The bible also states that no one is "righteous." Its so important to understand that, so you can understand what Jesus did.

It seems that in this case Paul is quoting from the OT and it is my strong opinion that he is miss quoting it as are you. The verse only makes sense and fits with the rest of the bible when considered as referring to those people of the time to whom the OT prophet was directly referring to. There was no righteousness among them there good works had become tainted and they had strayed far from the path.

This passage can not apply to all people through the ages as you seem to indicate because the bible refers to the righteous many times and even calls some people righteous/ So to apply the none righteous to all people is to disregaurd scripture.

Soul Searcher · Jul 28, 2006

non-religious said:
Um....well go for it.... I don't buy this everyone who is born is automatically a child of God. I'm more than willing to be told differently and if you have the verses that specifically illustrate the fact that every child born is therefore a child of God I'll happily eat my hat.....

How's this ?

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

The way I see it is in the literal sense we are all children of God. In the figurative sense we will all become children of God at some point but not every living person at any given point and time is figuratively a child of God as there are always those who lie and cheat and steal and treat others with cruelity.

The verse referenced earlier says that it is given the power to become the children of God.. This to me is a big hint, it is not saying that they are children of God but that they have been given the power. In other words if they have heard the message, understand it and believe it then they can do the will of the Lord which is to walk in the light, honest, upright, merciful, forgiveness, compassion for thier fellow man. Those who do not obey are yet in darkness though will not always remain in this state for the Lord has sworn that unto him every knee shall bend and every tounge confess.

Vegas · Jul 28, 2006

non-religious said:
I fail to see the connection or relevance here....

Why would salvation be solely determined on a span of a human life on Earth? The implication is clear... after death at the judgement ALL will acknowledge and worship God and God can then forgive everybody.

Vegas · Jul 28, 2006

Soul Searcher said:
The verse referenced earlier says that it is given the power to become the children of God.. This to me is a big hint, it is not saying that they are children of God but that they have been given the power. In other words if they have heard the message, understand it and believe it then they can do the will of the Lord with is to walk in the light, honest, upright, merciful, forgiveness, compassion for thier fellow man. Those who do not obey are yet in darkness.

The prodigal son is a story of a son who sold away his "sonhood" and after becoming lost returned to his father and was given his "sonhood" back ... free... no questions asked.

Emmy · Jul 28, 2006

Dear Pats. What is Hell? Jesus told us Himself, " Hell is a place in outer darkness, without God`s Love or Light," Who goes there? All who do not want to spend eternity with God, and with our brothers and sisters, in Christ. What do we need to do, to live eternally with God? Jesus told us," Repent, and follow me." To repent means to get rid of our selfish and uncaring natures, and let Jesus help, and guide us, to become selflessly loving and caring, to EVERYBODY we live with, meet, or know of, by deed or with sincere prayer, for as long, as we live, or they need us. To become like that, Pats, will change not only us, but also all around us, in time. We all know, the majority of men and women, are not bad, and Christians are the salt of the Earth. From pure practical point, can God allow disloyalty, or even careless, or unloving behaviour, in His Kingdom, Heaven?? The fire and brimstone, is reserved for Satan and his followers. I say this humbly and lovingly, Pats, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

What is Hell? Who goes there? (moved from WWMC)

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