What is Heaven actually like?

[Giberoo]

The concept of Heaven seems to be fatally undermined by simple human empathy - we care for each other. And this is the very basis of morality.

I think it's fair to assume that (according to Christians at least) only Christians make it to Heaven. Perhaps only members of a specific church, but let's just say 'Christians' for the sake of simplicity.

But I have friends from several different faiths - and none at all. If I convert, how coud I enjoy Heaven knowing my non-Christian friends were burning in Hell? And that I am spending eternity worshipping the very being that sent them there?

It seems to me Heaven won't be very nice if you care about a single person who is not also in Heaven.

If fact, you might not even need to have met or befriended a Hell-bound person. Surely just the knowledge that there are people being tortured in agony in Hell would be enough to mar the perfect happiness of a person in Heaven (and if it doesn't, then I suggest you don't really belong in Heaven at all).

It seems the only way you can enjoy Heaven is by being the selfish sort of person who thinks "Well I'm alright, screw everyone else."

Discuss

 

[AlexBP]

I think it's fair to assume that (according to Christians at least) only Christians make it to Heaven.

I don't think it's fair to say that at all. Have you actually read any statements from major church bodies concerning this issue? If not, what's your basis for this statement?

 

[Ken-1122]

I don't think it's fair to say that at all. Have you actually read any statements from major church bodies concerning this issue? If not, what's your basis for this statement?

Have you actually heard what most Christians say concerning their religion? I think he is right on point.

K

 

[ADTClone]

I don't think it's fair to say that at all. Have you actually read any statements from major church bodies concerning this issue? If not, what's your basis for this statement?

It's a valid assumption to make. Many different religions are contradictory and the mere existence of two or more religions may pose logical contradictions and inconsistencies.

Therefore he kind of has to make that assumption. Furthermore, since he is talking about the Christian heaven, he has to make that assumption.

 

[AlexBP]

Therefore he kind of has to make that assumption. Furthermore, since he is talking about the Christian heaven, he has to make that assumption.

Say what? Giberoo made an assumption.

I think it's fair to assume that (according to Christians at least) only Christians make it to Heaven.

Either this assumption is true or it is not true. We can look in the statements of doctrine by Church bodies to see whether it's true. Obviously there are an enormous number of such statements, so we can't look at them all here, but if we focus on the statements by the biggest denominations we'll know whether the statement is generally true for most Christians. So let's start with the Roman Catholic Church. Look in the Catechism. Look at the teachings of Augustine and other prominent theologians. (Here's a summary written by a knowledgeable person.) So that establishes the fact that Giberoo is wrong regarding Catholic teaching. Similarly, if I had more spare time, I could provide resources on Lutheran teaching, Episcopal teaching, Methodist teaching, &c... &c... The point is that Giberoo's statement is incorrect at least as it applies to the great majority of cases, and thus his entire argument unravels.

 

[juvenissun]

The concept of Heaven seems to be fatally undermined by simple human empathy - we care for each other. And this is the very basis of morality.

I think it's fair to assume that (according to Christians at least) only Christians make it to Heaven. Perhaps only members of a specific church, but let's just say 'Christians' for the sake of simplicity.

But I have friends from several different faiths - and none at all. If I convert, how coud I enjoy Heaven knowing my non-Christian friends were burning in Hell? And that I am spending eternity worshipping the very being that sent them there?

It seems to me Heaven won't be very nice if you care about a single person who is not also in Heaven.

If fact, you might not even need to have met or befriended a Hell-bound person. Surely just the knowledge that there are people being tortured in agony in Hell would be enough to mar the perfect happiness of a person in Heaven (and if it doesn't, then I suggest you don't really belong in Heaven at all).

It seems the only way you can enjoy Heaven is by being the selfish sort of person who thinks "Well I'm alright, screw everyone else."

Discuss

People (e.g. your good friends) who do not believe in God, SHOULD NOT expect to see God. God is in the Heaven. So your friends should not be in the Heaven.

If you want to see God, then you will not see your friends. If you want to be with your friends, then you will not see God.

Very simple logic. Nothing is wrong about it.

 

[SharonL]

The Bible says 'whosoever believes shall be saved' - there is no label on that statement for a certain church.

God does not send people to Hell - we have free choice and if a person chooses not to believe it is their choice and not God's.

 

[Forge3]

It is good.

 

[Giberoo]

Say what? Giberoo made an assumption.

Either this assumption is true or it is not true. We can look in the statements of doctrine by Church bodies to see whether it's true. Obviously there are an enormous number of such statements, so we can't look at them all here, but if we focus on the statements by the biggest denominations we'll know whether the statement is generally true for most Christians. So let's start with the Roman Catholic Church. Look in the Catechism. Look at the teachings of Augustine and other prominent theologians. So that establishes the fact that Giberoo is wrong regarding Catholic teaching. Similarly, if I had more spare time, I could provide resources on Lutheran teaching, Episcopal teaching, Methodist teaching, &c... &c... The point is that Giberoo's statement is incorrect at least as it applies to the great majority of cases, and thus his entire argument unravels.

You are saying it is untrue that only Christians get into Heaven? That seems an odd stance to take.

For one thing, the Bible itself specifically and repeatedly insists that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And for another, if what you are saying is true, then why be a Christian?

 

[Giberoo]

People (e.g. your good friends) who do not believe in God, SHOULD NOT expect to see God. God is in the Heaven. So your friends should not be in the Heaven.

If you want to see God, then you will not see your friends. If you want to be with your friends, then you will not see God.

Very simple logic. Nothing is wrong about it.

But Heaven won't be a very nice place if I am forever separated from my friends, will it?

The whole point of Heaven is that it is a blissful place of joy and happiness. Yet if I converted and made it to Heaven, how could I possibly enjoy such a place knowing I was forever removed from my friends?

 

[Giberoo]

The Bible says 'whosoever believes shall be saved' - there is no label on that statement for a certain church.

Yes, I accept that. But there is still division - between people who believe and those who do not. And as long as someone who believes cares for someone who does not, then Heaven will hardly be a nice place for them, will it?

God does not send people to Hell - we have free choice and if a person chooses not to believe it is their choice and not God's.

No, God does send people to Hell.

The choice being offered to us is "Believe in me or burn in Hell." That is not a free choice. That is a threat. It is coercion at it's most naked and sinister. It can be compared to someone with a gun dragging you into an alley and saying "Hand over your wallet or I'll shoot." Technically, yes it is your choice whether to hand over your wallet, but it's not a free choice, is it? You are obviously being threatened - coerced into making a particular choice. So it is with God's "Believe in me or burn."

 

[gracelandz]

But Heaven won't be a very nice place if I am forever separated from my friends, will it?

The whole point of Heaven is that it is a blissful place of joy and happiness. Yet if I converted and made it to Heaven, how could I possibly enjoy such a place knowing I was forever removed from my friends?

"The whole point of Heaven is that it is a blissful place of joy and happiness" is a misconception to begin with. Then you superimpose your next idea by limiting the definition of happiness as simply being where your friends are located. The same is true with your analogy about God supposedly mugging people into heaven.

You begin your arguments with a supposition, and then you discredit this same supposition with yet another one, as equally absurd.

Trying to grasp the true concept of heaven (or hell) without sincerely wanting to know the true character of God is futile.

 

[Giberoo]

"The whole point of Heaven is that it is a blissful place of joy and happiness" is a misconception to begin with.

Is it? How so?

Then you superimpose your next idea by limiting the definition of happiness as simply being where your friends are located.

Not quite. I have not defined happiness that way. However, if you genuinely care about someone who is burning in Hell while you enjoy the fruits of Heaven, how can you possibly be expected to be happy? Surely your empathy for your friend will haunt you?

The same is true with your analogy about God supposedly mugging people into heaven.

I stand by that analogy. There is no free choice to accept or reject God - it is coercion plain and simple.

You begin your arguments with a supposition, and then you discredit this same supposition with yet another one, as equally absurd.

Then please tell me the simple truth of the case: what is Heaven like?

 

[juvenissun]

But Heaven won't be a very nice place if I am forever separated from my friends, will it?

The whole point of Heaven is that it is a blissful place of joy and happiness. Yet if I converted and made it to Heaven, how could I possibly enjoy such a place knowing I was forever removed from my friends?

Your friends do not recognize God. If you love your friends, then you should not recognize God either. Otherwise, you do not really love your friends.

What would the Heaven be like is one question. Whether you recognize (and trust) God is another question. If you trust God more than you trust your friends, then you go to where God is regardless what would it look like.

If you like to be in the Heaven, then either persuade your friends to recognize God too, or become distant from them.

Unfortunately, there is really no compromise in this situation. You can only choose white or non-white. Gray belongs to non-white.

 

[juvenissun]

No, God does send people to Hell.

The choice being offered to us is "Believe in me or burn in Hell." That is not a free choice. That is a threat. It is coercion at it's most naked and sinister. It can be compared to someone with a gun dragging you into an alley and saying "Hand over your wallet or I'll shoot." Technically, yes it is your choice whether to hand over your wallet, but it's not a free choice, is it? You are obviously being threatened - coerced into making a particular choice. So it is with God's "Believe in me or burn."

Misconception.

The choices are: believe Me, or not believe Me.

If believed God, you go to Heaven.
If not believed God, you do not go to Heaven.

Where would the nonbeliever go? That is another deep question. God's world is bigger than just Heaven and Hell.

 

[ADTClone]

The Bible says 'whosoever believes shall be saved' - there is no label on that statement for a certain church.

God does not send people to Hell - we have free choice and if a person chooses not to believe it is their choice and not God's.

But considering God is omniscience(all knowing), he knows every move that we make and will make, therefore we don't really have free will.

Furthermore, God created hell, is that not correct? Who chooses who is worthy on "judgement day"? God of course, God makes the final decision on who goes to hell or not. God set up the rule that if you don't believe, you go to hell, and someone has to enact that law right?

So don't give this dulled down version of your religion, as that simply isn't true. People don't choose whether they go to hell, evidently God does.

 

[SharonL]

You are born - right. You are alive - right - therefore you are right in one respect - you don't have a choice in that matter - you are alive and you have a spirit - where that spirit spends eternity is now your choice.

 

[juvenissun]

But considering God is omniscience(all knowing), he knows every move that we make and will make, therefore we don't really have free will.

Furthermore, God created hell, is that not correct? Who chooses who is worthy on "judgement day"? God of course, God makes the final decision on who goes to hell or not. God set up the rule that if you don't believe, you go to hell, and someone has to enact that law right?

So don't give this dulled down version of your religion, as that simply isn't true. People don't choose whether they go to hell, evidently God does.

No. Non-believer creates hell.

 

[Giberoo]

Your friends do not recognize God. If you love your friends, then you should not recognize God either. Otherwise, you do not really love your friends.

So you're saying I should only be a Christian if everyone I care about is also a Christian?

What would the Heaven be like is one question. Whether you recognize (and trust) God is another question. If you trust God more than you trust your friends, then you go to where God is regardless what would it look like.

And if I choose God, I will forever be seperated from my non-Christian friends. As a person who cares about them, that would upset me.

If you like to be in the Heaven, then either persuade your friends to recognize God too, or become distant from them.

I do not control my friends. I could, in theory, preach to them, but it they chose not to convert then I cannot make them.

 

[Giberoo]

Misconception.

The choices are: believe Me, or not believe Me.

If believed God, you go to Heaven.
If not believed God, you do not go to Heaven.

Just like the situation with the mugger. The choice is hand over wallet or not.

Hand over wallet and live.
Do not hand over wallet and get shot.

The situations are directly comparable.

Where would the nonbeliever go? That is another deep question. God's world is bigger than just Heaven and Hell.

That's not really the point. As long as non-Christians do not go to Heaven, then I will be searated from them. That is reason enough for me to mourn their loss.