What is he talking about?

[akolouthein]

Can someone please help me understand what BigNorsk is talking about here.

Calvinism does have some scriptural support for their ideas, but I'm kind of a big picture type of guy. I get really tired of these TULIP debates because out of some what is it 60,000 verses in the Bible, the debate goes around and around on a couple of hundred tops. Well, I believe it when the Bible says all scripture is useful and I don't care to make my life focused on just a few.

When you get to be a good calvinist you will believe in things like limited atonement, but you are told to live as if all can be saved. To witness to everyone. The paradoxes in other systems comes in different places, but the classic paradox in calvinism is the disjoint between the system and how people are told to live.

So after spending great effort and time condemning the armininians, telling us Luther didn't go far enough in his theology, calvinists are told to act as if they are arminians. So you see the calvinist ministers telling the people to make a choice for Jesus when their theology is that it is whether Jesus did or didn't make a choice to save them.

The weakest part of Calvinism is the application, living your life. They make explanations for it, mostly they use the commands Jesus gave his followers which are really incompatible with God decided everything and you are going to accept or reject him based on his choice. It's really like Calvinism is two systems one for theology, one for life.

The subject is found here http://www.christianforums.com/t2160011-calvin.html

I'm not well equipped yet to defend T.U.L.I.P and the truth is I have prayed and prayed about it and God just gives me a peace about it. To me it is all starting to seem simple. However, you cannot defend youself very well with just that .

Thanks much!
Rob

 

[reformedfan]

i posted there, lotta misinfo about Calvinism, imagine that, strawmen being embraced, those are so much more cuddly!

 

[akolouthein]

i posted there, lotta misinfo about Calvinism, imagine that, strawmen being embraced, those are so much more cuddly!

Lol ! So true

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

When you get to be a good calvinist you will believe in things like limited atonement, but you are told to live as if all can be saved. To witness to everyone. The paradoxes in other systems comes in different places, but the classic paradox in calvinism is the disjoint between the system and how people are told to live.

Things might be (although I personally doubt it) a whole lot easier if God marked all the elect with a neon sign for us, but that's not how He wants things done. Furthermore, salvation is offered to the world, which means there's going to be a lot of changes. Nations will be reached by the gospel. I don't see how evangelism is incompatible with Calvinism. In actuality, I think there's a discontinuity between the Arminian's theology and the way he lives (and how could there not be? Arminianism is a false worldview). He believes in universal atonement and then worries about his (and others') salvation. He believes in the sovereignty of man's will and yet tries to change the unbelieving man's mind.

So after spending great effort and time condemning the armininians, telling us Luther didn't go far enough in his theology, calvinists are told to act as if they are arminians. So you see the calvinist ministers telling the people to make a choice for Jesus when their theology is that it is whether Jesus did or didn't make a choice to save them.

The weakest part of Calvinism is the application, living your life. They make explanations for it, mostly they use the commands Jesus gave his followers which are really incompatible with God decided everything and you are going to accept or reject him based on his choice. It's really like Calvinism is two systems one for theology, one for life.

I don't know very many Calvinists who say we should act like we're Arminians. The trouble here is, I think, that BigNorsk believes Calvinism to uphold a view of man's will as incompatible with God's sovereignty. That we shouldn't tell people to choose Christ because we don't make any choices. This is incorrect. Ultimately, our salvation is God's doing, but He does this by making us willing by His grace to come to Christ.

 

[reformedfan]

ya gotta post it in the link! That's where this is being debated, the strawman brigade vs. everyone else

 

[Jon_]

Well, in addition to the strawman that this argument is (which reformedfan nailed!), it is also a pragmatic argument. Now, ordinarily, we consider pragmatism to be a good thing, but when it comes to an argument, it's bad. Appealing to the practical consequences of an argument as a justification for or against it is irrational. Saying that affirming Calvinism is bad or wrong because it has poor application to real life is no justification for anything. This is a common argument from those who have ultimately conceded that they cannot refute Calvinism's scriptural and logical arguments. They're scraping the barrel, trying to come up with a last-ditch argument, and it's usually this one.

In addition to being completely wrong about Calvinism's applicability, they are wrong to view the argument in light of its practical consequences. I'll give an example.

Let's say that a city is having a problem with theft. We'll imagine it has gone up threefold in the past three years. The city really wants to do something about it, so they ask you what they can do to reduce the theft. Your answer? Immediately shoot all thieves on sight without a trial. Moreover, issue every citizen a firearm and make it a law that all thieves must be shot on sight. If anyone sees a theft in progress and does not shoot the thief, then he too must be shot.

Now, the practical consequences of this situation will undoubtedly be a dramatic if not complete reduction in theft. But does anyone agree that this is a good thing? No, of course not. Although I have reversed the emphasis in this illustration (bad argument, but good consequences, as opposed to good argument, but "bad" consequences), it should serve its purpose in showing why practical consequences are not a valid gauge for an argument.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[akolouthein]

Well, in addition to the strawman that this argument is (which reformedfan nailed!), it is also a pragmatic argument. Now, ordinarily, we consider pragmatism to be a good thing, but when it comes to an argument, it's bad. Appealing to the practical consequences of an argument as a justification for or against it is irrational. Saying that affirming Calvinism is bad or wrong because it has poor application to real life is no justification for anything. This is a common argument from those who have ultimately conceded that they cannot refute Calvinism's scriptural and logical arguments. They're scraping the barrel, trying to come up with a last-ditch argument, and it's usually this one.

In addition to being completely wrong about Calvinism's applicability, they are wrong to view the argument in light of its practical consequences. I'll give an example.

Let's say that a city is having a problem with theft. We'll imagine it has gone up threefold in the past three years. The city really wants to do something about it, so they ask you what they can do to reduce the theft. Your answer? Immediately shoot all thieves on sight without a trial. Moreover, issue every citizen a firearm and make it a law that all thieves must be shot on sight. If anyone sees a theft in progress and does not shoot the thief, then he too must be shot.

Now, the practical consequences of this situation will undoubtedly be a dramatic if not complete reduction in theft. But does anyone agree that this is a good thing? No, of course not. Although I have reversed the emphasis in this illustration (bad argument, but good consequences, as opposed to good argument, but "bad" consequences), it should serve its purpose in showing why practical consequences are not a valid gauge for an argument.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Thanks Jon,
Its really tough trying to get my family to understand where I am coming from. Most grew up in the ELCA but we are working on it.

 

[Jon_]

Thanks Jon,
Its really tough trying to get my family to understand where I am coming from. Most grew up in the ELCA but we are working on it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon