What is hard about submission?

My husband and I submit to one another as in the Ephesians 5 passage. This is not about women maintaining their independance at all costs, because anyone who thinks marriage is about independance is crazy. Marriage is about submission to one's spouse, serving one's spouse as Christ served us. My husband and I make decisions together, or simply leave certain matters to the other's judgement as the situation calls for. I know for a fact that my husband would be very disappointed in me if I just said "whatever you think is best". We see each other as equal partners, and that is far more about submission than about an assertion of authority or indepedance.

John.

What I do have issue with in the seemingly carte blanche right to dominate one's wife that many men have accepted as divine order. That is what got me searching for biblical scholars who had more to say on all those 'proof' verses that are used to justify male leadership in the church and the home. It was seeing that all those verses had other understandings that has made me aware of just how badly Poor Paul has been labelled the oppressor of women, when he, apart from Jesus, did more to undermine patriarchy than any other ancient writer.

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Agree entirely and it's no wonder marriages suffer when men take these verses and want the power of headship without the great responsibility such a role entails. It would be easy for my husband to let me do all the decison making and initialy that's the way I would have liked it as in the corporate world I am used to manging lots of people and decision making is something I find easy.

However I believe when a husband accepts the mantle of bearing overall responsibility because he wants to serve his wife and family, God equips him to be the priest, protector and provider and bear the heavier load of responsibilty. Marriage is still a partnership and I am not a silent partner lol!! Husbands should consult their wives in desicion making and have her best interests always in mind. That is the only way it will work. It is a sacrificial leadership not a positional one with Christ as the example to follow. This is then a blessing to the family where everyone submits to one another in love.

I cannot submit if submitting is having my husband in charge of me, he is my husband, my spouse, my equal, not my father.
When I was married, our marriage was something that we went in to together, ie, we each were to give 100% of our selves to each other. No one is in charge in our marriage, we do things for each other because we love each other, not because we are "supposed" to.
We work together as a team, we come up with idea's together to do with the household, vacation or other items of importance.
Just some thoughts...Each marriage to it's own though I suppose. My apologies

PenelopePitstop2 said:

…God equips him to be the priest…

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I find this statement confusing, since I understand that the only One that is to stand between us and God is Jesus, whether we are a man or a woman (Hebrews 4:14-16).

… bear the heavier load of responsibilty.

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Why do you think husbands are to bear the heavier load of responsibility?

Husbands should consult their wives in desicion making and have her best interests always in mind. That is the only way it will work.

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The only way? If that is how you find things work in your family, that is fine, but I don’t think this is a universal foruma. My husband does not “make the decisions” for our home. I am not simply his consulting side-kick, and he is not left with the responsibility of deciding what is best for me. We make our decisions together. There is nobody “leading” the decision making process. This works very well!

Autumnleaf said:

I've been thinking about this recently and I don't understand why women have trouble with this.

As I see it, I am submissive to God by obeying the Bible. Beyond that I have to make some tough decisions which affect my family for better or worse. My wife has to let me know when I'm being stupid, other than those surprisingly regular occasions she pretty much has it good in the big decision making area. Why do so many women have trouble handing this role over to their husbands?

Is it a lack of trust in his judgement? Thinking you know better than him? Perhaps its a demand for equality if you think you are getting steamrolled by him?

If God said men should be submissive to their wives I think most men would be happy to be relieved of the responsibility. How come so many women have trouble resting in the trust of their husband's leadership?

Men and women please reply.

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I think many women confuse it with abuse or becoming a slave even t hough that's not what it is.. there's a lot of stuff out there that portrays it to be that way today. I believe in submitting to my husband and understand it. He's not abusive or doesn't treat me like a slave.. and we have good communication now.
My SIL though had a quote on her email profile and it said, "the thought that a woman should obey her husband is what has sent thousands of women to the grave"
That bothered me, I was like.. those women who went to the grave were not from submitting, it's from men who take it to believe they can abuse their wives and treat them any way they want without any respect or anything.. and they don't read past that line of "submit to your husband" It has to be read in full context and taken that way! sorry for that little rampage! lol

gopjeff said:

The flip side of your question is probably also relevant: what's so hard about loving one's wife to the extent that Christ loved the church? Many husbands don't love as they ought, so many wives don't submit as they ought.

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Amen

gopjeff said:

The flip side of your question is probably also relevant: what's so hard about loving one's wife to the extent that Christ loved the church? Many husbands don't love as they ought, so many wives don't submit as they ought.

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Amen.

Sorry for not reading other posts after this but I felt that this was the answer to the OP question.

When this doesn't happen the trust falls to the wayside, the urge to usurp the husband's decision making increases.

Lotuspetal_uk said:

Amen.

Sorry for not reading other posts after this but I felt that this was the answer to the OP question.

When this doesn't happen the trust falls to the wayside, the urge to usurp the husband's decision making increases.

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I agree that the question needs to be asked... if both people are doing both things.. but even as the woman I have learned that the man doesn't always have to be the one to start the"right" ways.. so if neither are doing it, both are at fault.. and both need to start.. but someone just needs to step up to the plate and start.. and in this case if I was the one recognizing th eproblem, I'd start.. by submitting more and I could be confident that he would start loving me the way that he should. (this is just an example) My husband and I have learned how to do this.. you really have to look less at what your spouse isn't doing and look at what you aren't doing and fix yourself rather than try to fix him.

livin4christ9203 said:

I agree that the question needs to be asked... if both people are doing both things.. but even as the woman I have learned that the man doesn't always have to be the one to start the"right" ways.. so if neither are doing it, both are at fault.. and both need to start.. but someone just needs to step up to the plate and start.. and in this case if I was the one recognizing th eproblem, I'd start.. by submitting more and I could be confident that he would start loving me the way that he should. (this is just an example) My husband and I have learned how to do this.. you really have to look less at what your spouse isn't doing and look at what you aren't doing and fix yourself rather than try to fix him.

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I feel that since G-d has placed man as the head of the family, ultimately he undertakes a greater responsibility. He would have to be the forerunner in stepping up to the plate, he is divinely designed to manage that. No amount of submission on the part of the female would alleviate the very real situation of a reluctance on the part of the husband to recognise his role. What I was refering to is the fact that if - from the onset - a husband treats his wife like Christ treats the church, she'd more likely embrace the concept of submission (i.e. respect of husband) by putting all trust in him even if later on he hits periods of trials. She would voluntarily be there by his side to take up the slack if necessary.

In answer to the OP post this can become more difficult for the wife if the husband does not operate like that, if the wife's opinions are either ignored or not allowed.

I don't think it's about a woman trying to fix a man but more about a reaction to one party not carrying out their requirement as the head of the family which can result in the deterioration of the "pecking order" so to speak.

mbams said:

I find this statement confusing, since I understand that the only One that is to stand between us and God is Jesus, whether we are a man or a woman (Hebrews 4:14-16). I am not saying that a woman needs to go through her husband to have a relationship with God, I am simply explaining the spiritual leadership that the husband bears in marriage, he should take the lead in ensuring his family live lives pleasing to the Lord and bring up their children to know the Lord .

Why do you think husbands are to bear the heavier load of responsibility? Read Ephesians below, the husband was ordained the head of the home just as Christ is the head of the church. Headship and leadership is about taking overall responsibility.

The only way? If that is how you find things work in your family, that is fine, but I don’t think this is a universal foruma. My husband does not “make the decisions” for our home. I am not simply his consulting side-kick, and he is not left with the responsibility of deciding what is best for me. We make our decisions together. There is nobody “leading” the decision making process. This works very well!

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I do not base this on what works for me, I struggled with this for a long time but felt the word is my guide not the world and I have to say now I am blessed.I am not a consulting sidekick either, I am a partner that my husband respects and consults in all things, he however carries the responsibilities of our jointly made decisions. Leadership is not about doing what you think is right alone, it is about consulting the 'team' around you and then making an overall decision with their interests at the forefront of your mind

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

However I believe when a husband accepts the mantle of bearing overall responsibility because he wants to serve his wife and family, God equips him to be the priest, protector and provider and bear the heavier load of responsibilty.

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Do you have any scripture that discusses the special equipping of men?

What are we to do with the concept of thge priesthood of all belivers? "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9).

Marriage is still a partnership and I am not a silent partner lol!! Husbands should consult their wives in desicion making and have her best interests always in mind. That is the only way it will work. It is a sacrificial leadership not a positional one with Christ as the example to follow. This is then a blessing to the family where everyone submits to one another in love.

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Why should a specially equipped husband need to consult his wife when making decisions? If Christ is the example of how men are to interact with their wives, I am very confused, because I have no memory of Jesus consulting the disciples or other belivers on what decisions He should make. He discussed such matters with God, not human beings.

Try as he might, my dear husband cannot speak for me on judgement day. I will stand alone and answer to God for the decisions I have made and the actions I have taken or not taken. Husbands are unable to take the overall responsibility for anyone else's lives.

united4Peace said:

I cannot submit if submitting is having my husband in charge of me, he is my husband, my spouse, my equal, not my father.
When I was married, our marriage was something that we went in to together, ie, we each were to give 100% of our selves to each other. No one is in charge in our marriage, we do things for each other because we love each other, not because we are "supposed" to.

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How do you feel about the notion that the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the Church, or the Biblical command that wives should obey their husbands?

bliz said:

Do you have any scripture that discusses the special equipping of men?

What are we to do with the concept of thge priesthood of all belivers? "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9).

Bliz,
If it is God's calling then the bible says we are equipped
with everything good for doinf His will in Hebrews 13 20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Why should a specially equipped husband need to consult his wife when making decisions? If Christ is the example of how men are to interact with their wives, I am very confused, because I have no memory of Jesus consulting the disciples or other belivers on what decisions He should make. He discussed such matters with God, not human beings. Does not the leadership of a church consult the elders? Jesus submitted to the leadership of the Father, the Holy Spirit submits to the will of the Father and Son, yet they are all equal, the chuch submits to the leadership of Christ, we are not led like robots though, we have choices and freewill, I can submit to Christ leadership but He does consult with me in the sense that He allows me choice and decision making, I can follow Him or not, however unlike my husband Christ knows my heart and knows already my desires, my fears etc. so it is different.

Try as he might, my dear husband cannot speak for me on judgement day. I will stand alone and answer to God for the decisions I have made and the actions I have taken or not taken. Husbands are unable to take the overall responsibility for anyone else's lives.Absolutely, he is not responsible for your salvation or your actions before God, each will be judged alone

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Perhaps this makes more sense as to why a 'head' or leader is necessary in a partnership.....

Male supremacists have often attempted to interpret Paul's use of the word "head" (Gk. kephale [kefalhv]) as representing the Hebrew ro's [vaor] and therefore take "head" to mean authority. But a tribal head in Israel was no king; he was the leader of an extended family of which he was a member (Num 1:4; 17:3; Joshua 22:14). The Hebrew word ro's [vaor] carries within it the idea of being first, not of being most powerful. Headship in the Old Testament placed an emphasis on leadership, not authority. True leadership invites others to follow rather than forcing them into submission. It knows when to lay down power as well as when to take it up. It cannot operate unless the other party is willing to be led. It is probably this sort of "subjection" that is spoken of in Titus 2:5.

Radical feminists, on the other hand, have sometimes sought refuge from traditional interpretations of gender roles by urging that Paul's use of kephale [kefalhv] means not "authority" but "source" (as in 1 Cor 11:3). Paul, then, would be saying that, because woman was taken out of man, he is her "source, " just as Christ is the "source" of the church and God is the "source" of Christ. But biblical evidence fits this explanation of Paul no better than it does the other extreme. Paul's reference point is Christ as the head of the church; this does not portray the "head" as founder but as representative and leader (Col 1:18).

It is clear that the truth must lie somewhere between the two extremes cited above. The biblical pattern seems to assume that in any partnership of only two persons, there are bound to be disagreements; some plan of action must be in place to break the tie. In those cases, the options available for the partnership are limited: it can have one head, two heads, or no head. When disagreements occur, a partnership with two heads pulls in two different directions; a partnership with no head would not move in any direction. Paul says that there is to be a head to the partnership and assigns the man to be "head of the woman" as God is the head of Christ. His grounds for this are that man was created first and thereby assumes the responsibilities of the firstborn. The man, accordingly, is charged with resolving such deadlocks as may occur in a marriage, not by brute force of strength or will, but by loving, caring means, emulating Christ's example in his leadership of the church. It has been argued that marriage, by incorporating the two sexes that make up the human species, provides a microcosm of the species, the two elements that together reflect the image of God and make humankind theologically human. Marriage, therefore, should be a humanizing experience, both sociologically and theologically. If the situation becomes dehumanizing, one partner or the other has overstepped his or her boundaries.

By following the prescriptive norms of the Edenic pattern, the redeemed community strives to alleviate the fallen state of society wherein woman assumes a lesser standing. Equality does not mean that there are now two heads in the marriage, though some have tried to make it this. It does mean that now the headship is based on the "one flesh" principle. If the man is the "head, " then the woman is the "body" that gives reality to the head; her "submission" cannot be forced but must be given of her own free will to this role arrangement. To put it in other words, the nuclear family is led, not forcibly driven, by its head. A "head" without a "body" would be monstrous.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary
of Biblical Theology

If it is God's calling then the bible says we are equipped with everything good for doinf His will in Hebrews 13 20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

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So does this passage only for men? Are women not equipped with everything good for doing His will?

I can submit to Christ leadership but He does consult with me in the sense that He allows me choice and decision making, I can follow Him or not, however unlike my husband Christ knows my heart and knows already my desires, my fears etc. so it is different.

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Sorry - no sale. God giving us free will is hardly the same thing as Him discussing His decisions with us! That is an absurd stretch.

Absolutely, he is not responsible for your salvation or your actions before God, each will be judged alone

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Last time I checked, all of my actions are done before God.

Please give credit to whomever wrote the stuff you pasted into your post.

PenelopePitstop2 said:

Radical feminists, on the other hand, have sometimes sought refuge from traditional interpretations of gender roles by urging that Paul's use of kephale [kefalhv] means not "authority" but "source" (as in 1 Cor 11:3).

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Why do people get labeled "radical feminists" just because their interpretation of the Bible is different from yours? I am sure lots of husbands of these ladies will disagree with you about calling their wives "radical feminists". Is there any male bashing involved when mutual submission is practiced? No. What is so radical about that?

My husband and I don't practice mutual submission because I am a radical feminist; we do it because it works well for our marriage. Despite our equal status in our marriage, it doesn't mean I would try to uproot him and disagree with him in everything we do because I can.. far from it. The point is to come to decisions that we are both satisfied with, and the person with more expertise in that particular area naturally has more say.

I don't go around calling people names because they don't practice mutual submission.

bliz said:

So does this passage only for men? Are women not equipped with everything good for doing His will?
Of course women and men are equipped to carry uot whatever mandate God has ordained for them, where did I suggest the equipping applied only yo males?


Sorry - no sale. God giving us free will is hardly the same thing as Him discussing His decisions with us! That is an absurd stretch.
You mean God just tells you to do something without speaking to you first? My bible says that God says let us reason together? An example of submission to leadership is Jesus discussing with His Father in the garden of Gethsemene and then submitting to the leadership of the Father is this not a parallel of the relationship between man and woman.

Also I did not write that Christ is the head of the church just as man is the head of the woman in marriage, they are God's words

Last time I checked, all of my actions are done before God. Was that not what I said, please explain

Please give credit to whomever wrote the stuff you pasted into your post.

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Apologies, I have edited it did not come out in the paste as I expected

Bliz, I am speaking about my interpretation of the bible and how I apply it to my life. I have responded to your questions because you asked. But I have to say at no point did I say thus sayeth the Lord, Bliz must follw suit. Your marriage is your business. I am sharing what has worked for me after years of searching my heart to make my marriage better. There is no need to be quite so defensive. Where did I say you are wrong and I am right. If I've offended you please explain so I can extend an apology. My original answer was in response to the OP question and state my opinion to his questions about why submission is hard for women in marriage.

Marie D said:

How do you feel about the notion that the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the Church, or the Biblical command that wives should obey their husbands?

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I dont look at my husband as being the head of me...
Im sorry.
I look at him as being my partner and my equal.
I guess as comming from Canada and being a supporter of SS marriages I look at a marriage as two persons who love each other and are each others soul mates and equals not one being the "head" of the other.
To me having one partner being the head is not a marriage, if I were to have to listen to him I would not be married to him, I would have left the marriage long ago.
Just talking to my husband right now actually and we did not have obey in our vows (Church)...we were Husband and Wife not Man and wife...
We are equals...he is not above me, nor I above him...sorry...
(Too add, he is not Christian so he does not look at Christ as the head of the Church and yes our marriage is still valid in the Church)

Xinnamon said:

Why do people get labeled "radical feminists" just because their interpretation of the Bible is different from yours? I am sure lots of husbands of these ladies will disagree with you about calling their wives "radical feminists".

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I think that by labelling people, they are trying scare others from taking on that view. I was introduced to the interpretation of Kephale meaning "source" by a male writer.

Is there any male bashing involved when mutual submission is practiced? No. What is so radical about that?

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Although I do not think it belongs to “radical feminism”, it is a radical deviation from the world’s view of women. Look around the world, and how women are often mistreated. In Paul’s time, women were treated as sub-human. I think that attitude toward the inferiority of women has been read into scripture. People read these passages with their cultural bias that women are to play a “lesser role”. I believe Paul was very radical in telling husbands to love their wives in the context of mutual submission. It was so radcical, in fact, that I think many of the men had no idea how to love a wife. So, Paul reminds them of how Christ loves us, and says, there -- live out that example of love.

Bliz, I am speaking about my interpretation of the bible and how I apply it to my life. I have responded to your questions because you asked. But I have to say at no point did I say thus sayeth the Lord, Bliz must follw suit. Your marriage is your business. I am sharing what has worked for me after years of searching my heart to make my marriage better. There is no need to be quite so defensive. Where did I say you are wrong and I am right. If I've offended you please explain so I can extend an apology. My original answer was in response to the OP question and state my opinion to his questions about why submission is hard for women in marriage.

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I do not base this on what works for me, I struggled with this for a long time but felt the word is my guide not the world and I have to say now I am blessed.

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Statements like this seem to me to say that you think that you are following the Word and you are blessed. Where does that put those of us who disagree with you?

RealityCheck said:

How about you tell me first what Christianity was based on for the first 300+ years of its existence, since the Bible did not exist in anything close to its present form until the late 4th century.

Because I was always under the impression that the religion is called Christianity, not Biblianity.

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