What is grace?

Clare73 said:

Jesus was born, lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant. He did not give the full New Covenant revelation because so much of it depended on the cross at the end of his life. It is the apostles who completed the New Covenant revelation, and Jesus' teachings are to be understood in the light of that completed NT revelation.

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Sounds logical except for the fact He taught non-stop about the coming Kingdom of God, a dead giveaway of what was to come. Slaves, servants, women, all His greatest followers, already knew of their salvation in the world to come.

timothyu said:

Sounds logical except for the fact He taught non-stop about the coming Kingdom of God, a dead giveaway of what was to come. Slaves, servants, women, all His greatest followers, already knew of their salvation in the world to come.

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Scriptures?

Clare73 said:

Scriptures?

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The first four and most essential books of the NT.

timothyu said:

The first four and most essential books of the NT.

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It's all the word of God, from Ge 1:1 to Bonded Leather.

Clare73 said:

It's all the word of God, from Ge 1:1 to Bonded Leather.

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Of course it is.. God has been telling us to smarten up and put His will first right from the beginning. I just referred to what Jesus said about it. It was His gospel after all.

timothyu said:

Of course it is.. God has been telling us to smarten up and put His will first right from the beginning. I just referred to what Jesus said about it. It was His gospel after all.

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Still no Biblical demonstration.

Clare73 said:

Still no Biblical demonstration.

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You mean like God kicking A&E out of Eden for putting their will ahead of His, right down to Jesus telling us to put God's will first in His two commandments and inserting it into the Lords Prayer that His Kingdom would come and His will would be done in earth as it is in heaven? Don't forget that little incident when the people turned against the will of God while Moses was up a mountain and what was done to them for putting their will first.. You are right.. the Bible is full of those instances and Lot's wife will back me on that.

Douglas Brian McIntire said:

You used John 3:7-8 which isn’t the full context, so I added verse 6 (John 3:6-8) because you left out that important aspect of the context. The impact is clarity to the process by Which God, who is the Holy Spirit, works. The gospel of John teaches the process by which both Jew and gentile become children of God.

Many people use the Apostles teachings to define the written testimony and words of Jesus‘s when in actuality the Apostle’s teachings must solely be defined by Jesus’ spoken words and instructions which the 4 gospels have relayed.

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Actually, the way to rightly divide the NT is to do this...

All scripture found in the NT that occurs before the Cross of Christ, has to be discerned in LIGHT of the Cross.
Why?
Its becasue the New Covenant changed everything.
And..
The Apostle Paul was chosen to show us how how it all changed.

Let me give you an example, Reader.

IN Acts 2, ... You have Peter preaching water baptism, and faith, during Pentecost.

This same Peter, 10 yrs later, in Acts 10 is taught by God that Gentiles can be saved. So, Peter didnt know this in Acts 2.

And what else didn't he know about Salvation?

He didnt know this....>"The Gospel of the GRACE of God"....Is "faith is counted as righteousness"....and "Justification by faith"., because this Gospel, given in the "time of the Gentiles', came from PAUL, not from Peter or the other 11.
This is why Paul calls this Gospel...."" MY Gospel".. 3x in the NT.

If you study 2 Peter, you'll read that Peter had Paul's letters, and said they are SCRIPTURE.....= to the Torah.
He's right., as Paul's epistles became Doctrine for the Body of Christ, and most of the epistles that make up the NT are Paul's.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Is grace about delightful movements, very good manners, generosity, kindness, gifts?

How do you think of grace and what definition would you give for the word?

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I suppose it's depending on what context you're looking at. A woman can walk gracefully - which is fluid and not clunky and awkward - or you can also be gracious toward others.

But in the Bible Grace is used in a different context. God's grace is greater than your own grace, by far, and is seen most effectively in God's Grace in providing a means wherein we, though we fall short and are undeserving of it, may escape God's wrath, and become a beloved child.

When I think of God's grace I always think of salvation. My own grace is nothing in comparison.

Hazelelponi said:

When I think of God's grace I always think of salvation.

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Nicely stated.

And Salvation is : Jesus.

He's God's Grace.


"The grace by which we stand" is ...."i can do all things through Christ".


Jesus said something very interesting.
He said....>"apart from me, you can do nothing".

Yet, we are never apart from Him, if we are "in Christ", "Christ in you the Hope of Glory"....Having become a "Son/Daughter of God.... = Born again.

So, how can we be "apart", yet, "one with God'?

Its when we are tryng to do in our own power, by self effort, what can only be done by the Grace of God........is how a believer becomes "apart from ME, you can do nothing".

"do nothing" means the believer is struggling and can't get any victory or find any real power or peace, within their CHRISTianity.

Clare73 said:

Yes, flesh is born of flesh, and the new birth of God's divine eternal life within our immortal spirits (it first being given to Adam) is of God, the Holy Spirit, it being his own divine life.

Where did Jesus say anything about
the body of Christ, or
the one olive tree of God's people going all the way back to Abraham; i.e., the church (ek-klesia, called-out assembly, Ac 7:38) being the bride of Christ (Eph 5:30-32), or
sharing in Christ's own eternal inheritance (Ro 8:17), etc.?

Jesus was born, lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant. He did not give the full New Covenant revelation because so much of it depended on the cross at the end of his life. It is the apostles who completed the New Covenant revelation, and Jesus' teachings are to be understood in the light of that

Clare73 said:

Yes, flesh is born of flesh, and the new birth of God's divine eternal life within our immortal spirits (it first being given to Adam) is of God, the Holy Spirit, it being his own divine life.

Where did Jesus say anything about
the body of Christ, or
the one olive tree of God's people going all the way back to Abraham; i.e., the church (ek-klesia, called-out assembly, Ac 7:38) being the bride of Christ (Eph 5:30-32), or
sharing in Christ's own eternal inheritance (Ro 8:17), etc.?

Jesus was born, lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant. He did not give the full New Covenant revelation because so much of it depended on the cross at the end of his life. It is the apostles who completed the New Covenant revelation, and Jesus' teachings are to be understood in the light of that completed NT revelation.

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​

Are you like the MAJORIETY of Christians today who believe they know more that the Writers of the New Testament?

Born of God...

Do you believe "You" know more than the Apostles Paul?

Do you believe that what Paul wrote in Acts 17:23-31 teaches us how to be born of GOD?

24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood [Man] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He [God] has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:24-31)

Do you believe Paul speaks the truth plainly without deceit and without manipulation?

Born of God...

Paul said,
"He [God] has made from one blood [Man] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him"

"So that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him" (Acts 17:27)

Do you believe "You" know more than Jesus?

Jesus said,
17 If anyone wills to do His [God's] will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority (John 7:17)

Jesus said,
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Two types of people

Type 1
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

Type 2
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” (Matthew 7:21-26)

Do you believe "You" know more than Peter?

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The Word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (Acts 10:34-44)

18 God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. (Acts 3:18-24)

The Truth to being Born of God are these words...

36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe [Obey] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

Jesus,
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:7-9)

Chaleb said:

Actually, the way to rightly divide the NT is to do this...

All scripture found in the NT that occurs before the Cross of Christ, has to be discerned in LIGHT of the Cross.
Why?
Its becasue the New Covenant changed everything.
And..
The Apostle Paul was chosen to show us how how it all changed.

Let me give you an example, Reader.

IN Acts 2, ... You have Peter preaching water baptism, and faith, during Pentecost.

This same Peter, 10 yrs later, in Acts 10 is taught by God that Gentiles can be saved. So, Peter didnt know this in Acts 2.

And what else didn't he know about Salvation?

He didnt know this....>"The Gospel of the GRACE of God"....Is "faith is counted as righteousness"....and "Justification by faith"., because this Gospel, given in the "time of the Gentiles', came from PAUL, not from Peter or the other 11.
This is why Paul calls this Gospel...."" MY Gospel".. 3x in the NT.

If you study 2 Peter, you'll read that Peter had Paul's letters, and said they are SCRIPTURE.....= to the Torah.
He's right., as Paul's epistles became Doctrine for the Body of Christ, and most of the epistles that make up the NT are Paul's.

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There is only One Way to Find understanding of the New Testament scripture, it is to turn to Jesus and learn from Him by doing what Jesus taught. Any other way is not from the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Douglas Brian McIntire said:

There is only One Way to Find understanding of the New Testament scripture, it is to turn to Jesus and learn from Him by doing what Jesus taught. Any other way is not from the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

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Let me share this with you.

After Jesus was back in Heaven, he choose the Apostle Paul.
Christ said that Paul is a "chosen vessel" unto the Lord, with a specific ministry, call, duty.


Now, if you remember, ... Jesus said to the 11..(after His Resurrection)......that "there are many things i would share with you, but you are not able to receive them now"..

So, Christ called the Apostle Paul to deliver to them and to us, all of that revelation.

Paul is the "apostle to the gentiles", and we are in the "time of the Gentiles."
Jesus personally gave to Paul, "the Gospel of the Grace of God", and Paul states that this Gospel is "my Gospel".
He stated this 3X in the NT.
Peter, who had Paul's letters, said that Paul's letters are Scripture. They are equal to the Torah., and later Paul's Epistles became church
doctrine and so much more, as they make up most of the NT Epistles.

For example, If you want to know how to create a Church and how to choose a Pastor, then you read Paul's Epistles.
If you want to understand what it means to be married then you read Paul's Epistles.
Want to know about the "Gifts of the Spirit"." Read Paul's Epistles.
How to train disciples, How to Evangelize, how to Train members..... You read Paul's Epistles.

All of this and so much more, comes from Paul, and this is that "you are not able to receive it now'" information that Christ said He could not give the 11, at that time.
He sent the information through Paul, to them and to us.

Paul is the only Apostle who told you..."be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ".
Paul is our example, our Teacher, and our Apostle.
Paul is the greatest Christian who ever lived.

Correct NT doctrine, is "Pauline Theology".

Accept no substitute.

Chaleb said:

"the Gospel of the Grace of God", and Paul states that this Gospel is "my Gospel".
He stated this 3X in the NT.

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Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 28: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Acts 28: 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

timothyu said:

Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 28: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Acts 28: 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

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Yes.

Let me explain what Paul is teaching.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20-21

So, this is a spiritual Kingdom, but it is a Literal place of spiritual existance also.

Here is how that works, Timothyu.

The born again.....is the SPIRIT that is born again, as your body is "dead because of sin" and the mind is not born again.

The "Son of God".....>"the New Creation" is the born again Spirit.. who exists as "seated in Heavenly Places" "in Christ".

"God is A Spirit" and when a person is born again they are born again into the Spirit of God by the Holy Spirit.
This is to enter the KOG, which is also..... "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory". (Glory is Heaven)..

So, all the born again, enter this......."Translated from Darkness (this is unbelief).....to LIGHT""" and the KOG is this Spiritual Kingdom of "Light".
Your NT teaches that God exists "in LIGHT".

See that 'Light", timothyu?

This is to become "in Christ". regarding being Born again.........as Jesus "is the LIGHT of the World", and the born again are "Children of the Light".

God exists "in Light", and so do the born again, as that is the KOG, that is also within the born again, as the born again are become "the temple of the Holy Spirit".

Here is how that exists on earth as a Believer.

"As Christ is....so are the born again.....in....this....world".

Chaleb said:

Let me share this with you.

After Jesus was back in Heaven, he choose the Apostle Paul.
Christ said that Paul is a "chosen vessel" unto the Lord, with a specific ministry, call, duty.


Now, if you remember, ... Jesus said to the 11..(after His Resurrection)......that "there are many things i would share with you, but you are not able to receive them now"..

So, Christ called the Apostle Paul to deliver to them and to us, all of that revelation.

Paul is the "apostle to the gentiles", and we are in the "time of the Gentiles."
Jesus personally gave to Paul, "the Gospel of the Grace of God", and Paul states that this Gospel is "my Gospel".
He stated this 3X in the NT.
Peter, who had Paul's letters, said that Paul's letters are Scripture. They are equal to the Torah., and later Paul's Epistles became church
doctrine and so much more, as they make up most of the NT Epistles.

For example, If you want to know how to create a Church and how to choose a Pastor, then you read Paul's Epistles.
If you want to understand what it means to be married then you read Paul's Epistles.
Want to know about the "Gifts of the Spirit"." Read Paul's Epistles.
How to train disciples, How to Evangelize, how to Train members..... You read Paul's Epistles.

All of this and so much more, comes from Paul, and this is that "you are not able to receive it now'" information that Christ said He could not give the 11, at that time.
He sent the information through Paul, to them and to us.

Paul is the only Apostle who told you..."be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ".
Paul is our example, our Teacher, and our Apostle.
Paul is the greatest Christian who ever lived.

Correct NT doctrine, is "Pauline Theology".

Accept no substitute.

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Do you believe you know better than the Apostles Paul?

Let Paul tell you who Paul is and not you distort who Paul is.

Colossians 1 according to Paul Jesus has supremacy in "ALL THINGS"

According to Paul Colossians 2:8-9 "don't let anyone deceive you... and not according to Jesus Christ."

Paul to the Corinthians...

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not [a]carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. (2 Corinthians 10:3-6)

Paul to Timothy...

3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. (1 Timothy 6:3-5)

"he is proud, knowing nothing"

Do you know more than the Apostle Paul?

This is what Paul considers about himself and about those who don't agree with the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:1-6)

1. But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

2. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

3. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The day you obey Jesus, will be the day you become like Paul understanding Paul.

Paul before King Agrippa...

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.​

Douglas Brian McIntire said:

Do you believe you know better than the Apostles Paul?

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Only Christ "knows" better then Paul.
However Paul knows "better" then anyone else.
There is a reason that Paul wrote most of the NT Epistles.., as i was explaining to you, in the previous post

So, if and when you want to learn Pauline Theology, you have to listen to someone who knows it, and teaches it.

You are welcome to read every post ive posted since i came here on 3-11, including my Thread, as everything i teach is "Pauline Theology", as is everything i will continue to teach.

Douglas Brian McIntire said:

The day you obey Jesus, will be the day you become like Paul.

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I "obeyed Jesus" the day i believed Paul's Gospel.

You can beleive that, Douglas., as thats a fact.

And, Paul told the true believers to "follow me, as i follow Christ".

This means to follow his lifestyle, his teaching, his doctrine, and walk of faith...

Xeno.of.athens said:

Does that exhaust its meaning?

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Yes. Everything in this life is unmerited favor, for example, the next breath you take.

Chaleb said:

Only Christ "knows" better then Paul.
However Paul knows "better" then anyone else.
There is a reason that Paul wrote most of the NT Epistles.., as i was explaining to you, in the previous post

So, if and when you want to learn Pauline Theology, you have to listen to someone who knows it, and teaches it.

You are welcome to read every post ive posted since i came here on 3-11, including my Thread, as everything i teach is "Pauline Theology", as is everything i will continue to teach.

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Pauline bologna is a perception from lying men who give a false testimony lifting Paul up and not lifting up Jesus Christ.

God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”