What is going on with the old calendar church?

Xpycoctomos · Sep 26, 2005

Emmanuel-A said:
Anastasios,

A good friend of mine is under the Makarios of Athens synod (one of the dozens of GOC Synods that are based in Greece).
I'm a bit lost and looking for a partial story (at least as partial as possible) about the different "Auxentian" synods and the reasons why they split.
Like, why isn't your synod (the one of Chrysostom Kiousis if I understand well) in communion with the one of Makarios (Kavakidis) ?

I think you mean "impartial" (sans préjugé).

Emmanuel-A · Sep 26, 2005

Xpycoctomos said:
I think you mean "impartial" (sans préjugé).

Yes, I meant "impartial". Thanks for correcting me.

anastasios · Sep 26, 2005

Emmanuel-A said:
Anastasios,

A good friend of mine is under the Makarios of Athens synod (one of the dozens of GOC Synods that are based in Greece).
I'm a bit lost and looking for a partial story (at least as partial as possible) about the different "Auxentian" synods and the reasons why they split.
Like, why isn't your synod (the one of Chrysostom Kiousis if I understand well) in communion with the one of Makarios (Kavakidis) ?

Dear Emmanuel,

Thanks for your question. There are not really "dozens" of GOC Synods in Greece although being that there are more than one is indeed sad. I contend--and others will surely disagree--that there really is only one viable and historic GOC, that of Archbishop Chrysostomos II (Kiousis), which is why I joined that Synod over the others.

As you probably know, Archbishop Auxentios was consecrated by Archbishop Akakios (Pappas) the first GOC archbishop of Athens, and Archbishop Leonty of Chile (ROCOR). From most accounts, he was a holy man, but was not a skilled administrator. He made several blatent errors in the 1970's, which led to two results: firstly, ROCOR severed concelebrations with the GOC in 1976 (but continued to commune the GOC faithful) and in 1979 the Auxentian Synod was spilt into two, with the other faction being under Metropolitan Kallistos of Corinth. This faction saw itself as a reform movement. Most of the bishops of this synod later reunited with Auxentios, save for Metropolitans Cyprian and Giovvani of Sardinia, who formed their own Synod, based on their unique ecclesiology.

The majority of Old Calendarist bishops were united by 1985, and Auxentios was deposed for canonical infractions. Chrysostomos II was elected as his successor, although Auxentios and two or three other bishops did not accept the deposition and set up their own "synod", although numerically it was insignificant. This synod later took in the HOCNA group when it left ROCOR.

This reunited Synod of Chrysostomos II stayed united but with several canonical problems and difficulties, into 1995. In 1995, six bishops separated from the Synod; two soon returned, two later were "reordained" by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and abandoned the Old Calendar altogether (these "reordinations"--done for political reasons--were protested by His Beatitude Diodoros of Jerusalem, who had previously concelebrated with these bishops), and two formed the Synod which is now under Makarios of Athens. From every report I have from people in Greece, this is a rather small jurisidiction with no tangible membership. Perhaps your friend or others in this synod can correct my impressions.

Hence, the situation as we now have it is that Chrysostomos II is the head of the largest GOC Synod and the one that can most clearly demonstrate historical roots with the original GOC, the Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian which I personally admire for its publishing efforts but whom I lament for their separation from my Synod, the Synod of Makarios which separated from Chrysostomos II, and a basically now-defunct Church under Auxentios's successor Maximos. I am not addressing the Matthewites, which are a rather small and early schism from the GOC (undoubtedly, they will protest).

Of these divisions, only the Chrysostomos II Synod has full legal recognition from the Greek government, somewhere around 190-200 parishes, a large number of faithful, and historical connectivity with the original GOC movement. The Synod of Archbishop Chrysostomos II is in dialogue with the New Calendarist Orthodox Church of Greece and it is my sincere prayer that the divisions between the two bodies can be resolved sooner than later.

Please let me know if this answered your question and if there are any more you have.

In Christ,

Anastasios

Emmanuel-A · Sep 27, 2005

Anastasios, thanks for your long answer.

anastasios said:
There are not really "dozens" of GOC Synods in Greece

Yes, "dozens" is an exaggeration. Sorry.

But I can spontaneously think of at least six of them and I'm sure I forget some, which is confusing, really.

anastasios said:
This reunited Synod of Chrysostomos II stayed united but with several canonical problems and difficulties, into 1995. In 1995, six bishops separated from the Synod; two soon returned, two later were "reordained" by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and abandoned the Old Calendar altogether (these "reordinations"--done for political reasons--were protested by His Beatitude Diodoros of Jerusalem, who had previously concelebrated with these bishops), and two formed the Synod which is now under Makarios of Athens. From every report I have from people in Greece, this is a rather small jurisidiction with no tangible membership. Perhaps your friend or others in this synod can correct my impressions.

Why did those six bishops leave ?

I ask this, because Makarios jurisdiction may be small in Greece, but in my country (France), the only significant GOC community is under his synod (they have a dozen parishes and a bishop, Philaret,that split with hocna in 2002 and joined Makarios). The only other GOC are a small Matthewite parish, lost in the Pyrrenean mountains.

Although I'm not GOC, I admit that they, at least in France, do a great work of publishing and translations of services, theological works in local language that the canonic orthodox churches have for a long time been uncapable or unwilling to do. And I'm thankful for that.

In Christ

Emmanuel

Petronius · Sep 27, 2005

ExOrienteLux said:
There's a fairly sizable difference. The Old Calendarists (Palaiomerologitai) schismed from their mother Church over this issue. There are, however, many who believe that the Old Calendar should be reinstated over the whole Orthodox world (myself included) and there are several Churches that still use the Julian Calendar (namely, Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, and Romania - there's probably more, but I don't remember).

You are wrong, Romania is using the New Calendar. As a personal opinion: there is no Divine reason to keep the old calendar, other than bigotism. If one takes into consideration the imperfection of the Old calendar, in some centuries Christmas will be in spring and Pascha in winter...

Petronius · Sep 27, 2005

Cronic said:
From what I know the Greek patriarchy has excommunicated them except for the monasteries in Mount Athos. However the people here view it as a stricter version of Orthodoxy. Does anyone know what is going on? I'd like to know more, both facts and oppinions, on the issue.

A real debate ! Let us take it systematically. I think that some fact are not known and this is fueling useless the debate.
First to make clear:

What was the reason for switching from Julian to Gregorian Calendar ?
Is this clear for evrybody ? I am waiting for some answers to make a test and see how to continue this point of view.

anastasios · Sep 27, 2005

Petronius said:
You are wrong, Romania is using the New Calendar. As a personal opinion: there is no Divine reason to keep the old calendar, other than bigotism. If one takes into consideration the imperfection of the Old calendar, in some centuries Christmas will be in spring and Pascha in winter...

I think there are reasons to use the Julian Calendar other than bigotism, and I wonder if the author intended the above statement to apply to all Old Calendar Churches such as Serbia and Russia, or just to those separated over the Calendar.

A fine treatment of the subject of the Calendar from the Old Calendarist point of view is A Scientific Examination of the Orthodox Church Calendar available here: http://users.sisqtel.net/sgpm/ctos/oldcal/ Interestingly enough, if the "Revised Julian Calendar" continues to be used in the New Calendar Orthodox Churches, in some centuries Christmas and Pascha will fall on the same day.

anastasios · Sep 27, 2005

Emmanuel-A said:
Anastasios, thanks for your long answer.
But I can spontaneously think of at least six of them and I'm sure I forget some, which is confusing, really.

Indeed.

Why did those six bishops leave ?

From the Makarian point of view, because Archbishop Chrysostomos II diverted synodal funds to a shadow corporation according to their allegations. From the Chrysostomos II point of view, because Metropolitan Euthymius of Thessalonika was to be brought up on charges of immorality. It is a rather complex issue to say the least. What is most fascinating is that of the six to split, only two remained in the split off group as noted above, and they quickly ordained others to bolster their strength.

I ask this, because Makarios jurisdiction may be small in Greece, but in my country (France), the only significant GOC community is under his synod (they have a dozen parishes and a bishop, Philaret,that split with hocna in 2002 and joined Makarios). The only other GOC are a small Matthewite parish, lost in the Pyrrenean mountains.

That is fascinating. All I can say is that I wish that our Synod were present in France. Schisms are most insidious because of the way they affect the common parish life of the faithful, causing division, confusion, and difficulties.

Although I'm not GOC, I admit that they, at least in France, do a great work of publishing and translations of services, theological works in local language that the canonic orthodox churches have for a long time been uncapable or unwilling to do. And I'm thankful for that.

I am happy that that is the case. HOCNA produces fine liturgical materials in the English language and the GOC uses them oftentimes.

In Christ,

Anastasios

Petronius · Sep 28, 2005

anastasios said:
I think there are reasons to use the Julian Calendar other than bigotism, and I wonder if the author intended the above statement to apply to all Old Calendar Churches such as Serbia and Russia, or just to those separated over the Calendar.

A fine treatment of the subject of the Calendar from the Old Calendarist point of view is A Scientific Examination of the Orthodox Church Calendar available here:

In this comprehensive study of the calendar issue, Father Cassian refutes the received view that the Gregorian Calendar is more precise astronomically than the Julian Calendar, proving with an abundance of scientific evidence that it is impossible, given what we know about time and space, to devise any calendar that would be entirely accurate.

There are projects of calendars that are much more accurate, but this would mean a completely different system, with decades instead of weeks etc etc etc, which will really affect the church life and also the existing social life, for this reason and many others) these calendar systems (for example the maya calendar is more precise) were not adopted although were considered at one time point.
The Revised Julian Calendar or the Gregorian Calendar or the New Calendar IS more precise.
There will be no precise calendar just becuase the definition of second and the period of the revlution of the Earth around The Sun and the period of spinning are not comensurable.

From a theological viewpoint, he shows that the Revised Julian Calendar introduced by the ecumenists of the Phanar is a veritable Trojan horse in the citadel of Orthodoxy, which has caused untold damage to the liturgical life of the Church.

This is a statement of the recenzist of the book and this speak for itself in the direction of bigotism.

If there is no precise calendar, there is no reason not to adopt a more precise calendar despite of a less precise calendar, just because the more precise Clendar was initially adopted by the Pope and the Catholic Church, inbig scism by that time.

Interestingly enough, if the "Revised Julian Calendar" continues to be used in the New Calendar Orthodox Churches, in some centuries Christmas and Pascha will fall on the same day.

Yes, this is a very good point, just because according to the Old Calendar, the Spring Equinox is not a referance for the Calendar, but the Astronomical Events (set up by our Lord) are forced to comply with the Calendar (set up by humans)... And how do you call this ? Bigotism could be an appropriate word, it can then approach heresy...

vanshan · Sep 28, 2005

anastasios said:
HOCNA produces fine liturgical materials in the English language and the GOC uses them oftentimes.

Holy Transfiguration Monastery (HOCNA), when it was part of ROCOR, did produce some good liturgical resources, such as a nice translation of the Psalter, which is own, but their history is problematic, so it's hard to purchase materials from them, for fear of supporting what is apparently a schismatic group, plagued with mulitple charges of sexual abuse and cult-like behavior. I cannot ignore the mass of information presented against them, such as can be found here: http://hocna.info

If these allegations are false, I will heartily repent, but it's hard to ignore so many charges against them, and let others, like I have done, ignorantly support them.

Basil

anastasios · Sep 28, 2005

Petronius said:
Yes, this is a very good point, just because according to the Old Calendar, the Spring Equinox is not a referance for the Calendar, but the Astronomical Events (set up by our Lord) are forced to comply with the Calendar (set up by humans)... And how do you call this ? Bigotism could be an appropriate word, it can then approach heresy...

I'm sorry, I can't follow your post because you seem to be mixing quoted material with your own comments. I don't think it's bigoted that the author shows that the Revised Julian Calendar has some problems with it; you bring up the point that the Julian Calendar has some problems with it, so why is it bigoted to point out the problems with the Revised? There is a whole chapter on that book that lists various liturgical problems that occur on the New Calendar. Anyway, as I said, I didn't really come here to debate the Calendar issue; if you want to get a viewpoint other than the one you already hold and form a more thorough understanding of the Old Calendarist point of view, please do check out that book; if you are already convinced we are "heretics" (which I am not sure you can do without reading up on our point of view) then I wish you the best.

Anastasios

anastasios · Sep 28, 2005

vanshan said:
Holy Transfiguration Monastery (HOCNA), when it was part of ROCOR, did produce some good liturgical resources, such as a nice translation of the Psalter, which is own, but their history is problematic, so it's hard to purchase materials from them, for fear of supporting what is apparently a schismatic group, plagued with mulitple charges of sexual abuse and cult-like behavior. I cannot ignore the mass of information presented against them, such as can be found here: http://hocna.info

If these allegations are false, I will heartily repent, but it's hard to ignore so many charges against them, and let others, like I have done, ignorantly support them.

Basil

I continue to use their materials despite my awareness of these charges because their materials are simply of the highest quality and there is nothing else available in English in my opinion that fits my needs like this (namely, traditional English, prosomia hymns translated to Greek metre, etc). HTM is so marginalized now that purchasing their materials is not going to have either a positive or negative impact on Orthodoxy in America, I would say.

In regards to the hocna.info site, you should be aware of the author of that site; Archbishop Gregory of Colorado, an independent bishop who has his own set of questionable credentials and who left HOCNA with an axe to grind many years before the sex scandals were alleged. I am not saying that invalidates the material presented, but it is possible that the information is being skewed. At any rate, I myself do not know enough about the HOCNA situation to make an informed judgment about the scandals, but I would agree that they are schismatic (although undoubtedly for different reasons than you!)

Anastasios

Akathist · Sep 28, 2005

The insense from Holy Transifiguration Monestary does not cause me asthmatic issues where some of the other incense is harder for me.

Xpycoctomos · Sep 28, 2005

Okay.. I'll bite.. because I have never come across a good reason for it yet. What were the reasons for instituting the New Calendar?

xristos.anesti · Sep 28, 2005

Xpycoctomos said:
Okay.. I'll bite.. because I have never come across a good reason for it yet. What were the reasons for instituting the New Calendar?

Ecumenical Patriarch wanted to get closer to Anglicans in the 1920ties.

It didnt work out with them and we got stuck with it.

Xpycoctomos · Sep 28, 2005

xristos.anesti said:
Ecumenical Patriarch wanted to get closer to Anglicans in the 1920ties.

It didnt work out with them and we got stuck with it.

Yeah, I've heard something like that. Not sure how that was supposed to bring us closer to anyone. The calendar is not intrinsic to our Faith so I cannot imagine that the fact they celebrate Christmas on the 25th could have been any stumbling block towards reunion. Oh well. So it is. And Orthodoxy still stands firm.

John

Petronius · Sep 29, 2005

xristos.anesti said:
Ecumenical Patriarch wanted to get closer to Anglicans in the 1920ties.

It didnt work out with them and we got stuck with it.

I think there is a confusion here between these two notions: instituting and accepting/introducing into practice of the calendar.

The NSC was instituted in 1582.
See below a list when the NSC was introduced in different countries. (sorry, do not have enough posts to be entitled to post an image).
By informed that Great Britain introduced the NSC in 1752
and that generally Catholic areas introduced the NSC in or immediately after 1582, Protestant areas during the first half of the 18th century and Orthodox areas in Europe during the first quarter of the 20th century.
Some orthodox Churches are since no longer in symphony with their states.

Emmanuel-A · Sep 29, 2005

vanshan said:
Holy Transfiguration Monastery (HOCNA), when it was part of ROCOR, did produce some good liturgical resources, such as a nice translation of the Psalter, which is own, but their history is problematic, so it's hard to purchase materials from them, for fear of supporting what is apparently a schismatic group, plagued with mulitple charges of sexual abuse and cult-like behavior. I cannot ignore the mass of information presented against them, such as can be found here: http://hocna.info

Basil

I understand your concern regarding the support of schismatic publishers.
But in my country, the canonic orthodox churches tremble at the idea of publishing anything that would make the almighty local catholic hierachy uneasy.
If I was able to read in my own longuage (french) authors such as Saint Photios, Justin Popovic, Nicolas Cabasilas just to name a few, it was thanks to the GOC publishers. They were also among the first that found that having services in french was vital and made a great work of services translation that a lot of canonic parishes (including mine) use today.
I in no way support the GOC schisms, but I and a lot of canonic orthodox people in my country know what we owe to some of these groups.

What is going on with the old calendar church?

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