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What is god?

l33tspock

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I Believe god is nothing more than a means to an end. disprove please.

I am not being cynical either. I would truely love to believe in some power greater than me that truely had some plan for me. And I have been to pleanty of sermons, and have had pleanty of thoughts on the matter. I just don't see how god could possibly be real, when everything I've seen points to the oposite.

God cannot be seen, only felt personaly. Yet he is supposed to be able to create miracles. Of unkown unforseen nature. simply put, of a nature that when something goes good and we do not understand it we are allowed to say. A Miracle!

my assumation; god is not otherworldy or omnipitant. God is only in you. And by arguing this, I at least am able to free myself from my fundamentalist parents beliefs.

good day, and if you want, feel free to show me who god is.
 

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If i had about a month of free time I would explain to you in detail :)

Basics
Why could he be not possibly real? just becuase you don't believe he exists, I have never seen you, but i am sure you exist :)

Have you ever held $1.000.000 in yours hands? but that exists billions of times over.

Have you ever felt your brain with your bare hand? have you ever seen it with your naked eyes? we only have your personal testimony you have a brain, why should we believe it?

everything in this world is viewed by personal testimonies, ever person judges what they believe and adds it to what other believe.

**note i am not saying you are brainless it was an example ;) **
 
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steve_kyle

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Hey,

I can tell you that He exists, because I see Him working in my life every day. Yes, I believe I have been around some true miracles, but I am talking about regular everday stuff. God has provided for my family in so many ways. Financially, He has blessed us with a great house, 2 nice cars, and much more. For instance, we really felt like we needed a bigger vehicle for our family (a suburban), but could not find one ANYWHERE for the price we could afford. We continually prayed about it, and about a week later a salesman (who also happened to be a Christian) called and said he found us one for about $4000-5000 less than anything we had seen. When we got to the dealership, we could not believe what we saw. The entire car looked new, and it had very low miles. God found us what we wanted, and gave it to us at a price we could afford.

I work with teens everyday (I'm a youth director) and you are not alone in the way you feel. It is very important that you find out about God on your own. Your parents cannot make you a Christian. You have to seek out that relationship on your own. We could tell you story after story of how God has blessed people, changed lives, and more. However, He wants to meet with YOU personally. If you really want to find out about God, begin reading Matt., Mark, Luke, and John. Pray, and ask God to reveal Himself to you through those books. Then see what happens. I'll pray for you! Hope that helps.
 
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l33tspock

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Echuu Shen Jon remarked that the idea of god is essentially founded on personal belief.

steve_kyle - You describe god as a good deed doer. Yet there are often misdeeds to good people and believers (it rains on the just and unjust [size=-1]Matthew 5:45)[/size]. Do you disagree that god has no power other than that used through your own actions?

It seems almost wrong to try and understand god through my own logic, and some even have arguments that say we should not, much like my parents, who quote some verse about mans foolishness being gods wisdom. And using this as almost a buffer againced my attempts to understand god myself.

Indeed they would much rather I simply followed along with their beliefs. However, this isn't what is important in this discussion so lets not go to off topic. ( I know I did, sorry )

I hope this post helps keep things focused. I often find a failing in myself of getting too disorganized. : )
 
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Jody7818

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l33tspock said:
It seems almost wrong to try and understand god through my own logic, and some even have arguments that say we should not,

God is a spirit. He thinks totally different than what we (humans) do. Therefore, we don't have the ability to think like He does. Isaiah 55 verses 8 and 9 explain it like this:

v8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

v9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts.

We are talking about a Being that can make the earth with the sound of His voice. How can we (humans) try to understand God through our own logic?
 
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Rafael

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The Bible says that all men know there is God at some time in their lives, and they make a choice to replace that truth and act upon it by whatever motivation they desire to do away with the responsibility the Bible says we all have - to live according to the truth He has given us just by the witness of creation that surrounds us.
We stand in the middle of creation, and denying a Creator takes a bit of blind pride, as men cannot reproduce any of the accidents that secular humanism claims produced mankind and the world around us. Even though intelligent design seems extremely obvious in every mechanism of the universe, the obvious can be rejected along with any responsibility to live up to the great worth and purpose God has placed in His creation of man. No, we are not accidents, but each person is known even to the number of the hairs on their heads, and the learning of Agape love, God's giving love, is man's purpose here - so that we can be the family of God by choice, as true love can never be forced.

Romans 1:18-22
"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead."
 
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Jody7818

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Rafael said:
Romans 1:18-22
"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead."

That's an excellent verse. :thumbsup:
 
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visionary

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God cannot be seen, only felt personaly.
In rev 3:20 there is a promise that for those who open up their doors to their hearts, God will come and talk with them and be with them. I did and I met the Holy One of Israel.

Everything that is written in the Bible is the story of the people who also met God and know that He is real and is everything the Bible says and more. Since you have not tried to find God, you have not sought Him with all your heart, with all your mind, and with the sincere heart to find Him, though God has been very near you all along, you have not recognised Him.

Everything in the Bible is those who have known God trying to explain God as He interacted in their life. My experience helped me understand the difficulty in discribing the experience and I understand the frustration of the prophets in trying to find encompassing words to discribe not only what I experience but what God said to me.

Change your dimentional thinking to infinite and then have all the evil knowledge removed so that you can see clearly. It is encredibly uplifting to be in the presence of God. He is worthy of worship. You will have to know Him to even get a glimmer of understanding. Search the scriptures, for they speak of God. Get to know this God of the Bible through the eyes of those who experience Him. By faith, talk to this God of the Bible, that you have not met, to show you what you need to know and do to meet Him. Follow His instructions.

Scripture should speak to your heart, that which is important for you to follow and know. Pray that He uses His Word to show you the Way. For once in your life, seek God like fine gold, the winning ticket of the lottery, the grand prize of your life, for that is what He is. What God is is more than what I can describe.
 
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l33tspock

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What I am hearing is that we cannot comprehend god so therefore we should not try.

Yet we always know that god exists on the inside. And to deny him you are saying we are denying our salvation.

Yes, I suppose it does in a way come down to my choice as whether or not to believe this. But I have no inclination to believe that god or the devil will be waiting to take me in when I die. I can believe that "god" is a force of power inside, and offers comfort for your actions. But I cannot believe this _part of me_ has any say over my afterlife.

Some of you say it comes to a choice of whether I choose to believe. And your only comforting offer of support is that I am too feeble as a human to understand his grand plan and power. Why does god not wan't me to know but only hopes that I will believe? If I fail some test of gods because everything inside me is telling me that something isn't right about god. Then sure, I'd rather go to hell, I would not deceive myself so well as to stop pursuing what is most important to me.

Rafael- What do you mean when you say that all men know god at some point in their lives. What if I say I never have known the god you know, and I am not just decieving myself believing this. I know a personal "god" that I am almost certain none, or very few of you know.
 
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bethdinsmore

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Hi 133tspock :)

As an atheist, I eventually believed in the existence of good and evil in the supernatural world, due to some things that happened to me. When I studied Christian evidences, I eventually chose to believe in the God of the Bible, based on the preponderance of the evidence for the Scripture's infallibility.

Perhaps you'd like to check out Christian Evidences for yourself. Here's some examples:

www.tektonics.org and www.probe.org and www.icr.org

Also: New Evidence that demands a verdict by McDowell, and
Many Infallible Proofs by Morris, and
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Archer.

33 years ago I made the decision to trust in Christ alone to be my sinbearer and to get me to Heaven, without any good works or promises of my own. Since that time, He has proved Himself to me countless times. If you care to see details, see my website on the profile page, click on Personal Testimony.

Discovering God has been a fascinating journey, and well worth it, my friend.
Please pm me if you wish.

Aloha in Jesus :wave:
 
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steve_kyle

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steve_kyle - You describe god as a good deed doer. Yet there are often misdeeds to good people and believers (it rains on the just and unjust Matthew 5:45).  Do you disagree that god has no power other than that used through your own actions?  
 
 It seems almost wrong to try and understand god through my own logic, and some even have arguments that say we should not, much like my parents, who quote some verse about mans foolishness being gods wisdom. And using this as almost a buffer againced my attempts to understand god myself.

Yes, God is a good deed doer. God's original plan for man was to live in a world without sin (garden of eden). However, He gave man something that he did not give any of the other creatures of the earth, a soul. With that soul, He also gave us free choice in whether we follow Him or not. Adam and Eve chose to bring sin into the world. God cannot be in the presence of sin, and that is why they were cast out of the garden, and forced to work the land, and bring sacrifices for their sin.

Yes, bad things happen to good people. There were some good people on those planes on 9/11, Godly people. Why did they die? The sin of man corrupted the minds of the men who hijacked those planes. That's an easy one to accept. What about a child who dies of cancer? Is it because that child sinned? No. There are some things that I do not think we can fully explain. It is based on my experiences, both good and bad, with God that I know He exists. I shared some of the good with you earlier. The Bible says that "all things work together for the glory of God." Although something may seem horribly tragic, often God shows Himself to me in the midst of the storms raging about me. It can be something small, and it can be big, but it still lets me know that He is there with me.

Can we completely understand every angle of God? NO WAY! Does that mean I should not believe in Him? I do not think I could ever understand the way a 747 is put together, works, etc., but due to the experience of other people flying in them, as well as my own, I trust them, and would fly anywhere in the world. I know, that's kind of a dumb example, but it really applies if you think about it.

Do not just reject everything your parents have taught you, just because they taught it to you. Begin to ask God to reveal what the truth is, and read the Bible (again, the four gospels are a great place to start). I PROMISE that He will begin to reveal Himself to you. It is my guess that He has already been on your mind, or you would not have started this thread. His Word is how we find out about His character!
 
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Rafael

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l33tspock said:
I would truely love to believe in some power greater than me that truely had some plan for me. And I have been to pleanty of sermons, and have had pleanty of thoughts on the matter.
Rafael- What do you mean when you say that all men know god at some point in their lives. What if I say I never have known the god you know, and I am not just decieving myself believing this. I know a personal "god" that I am almost certain none, or very few of you know.
First, please don't be offended by me just quoting what I have learned in the Bible. Quoting the Bible verses pertaining to any subject isn't meant to be an offense by me, but the scriptures often wounds the pride in mankind. The word of God wounds the ego and pride of men by puting the finger of truth on the condition of mankind's nature of sin and death, but it brings light, truth, and healing if we humble ourselves to it and the process of life it brings. Before I could fully come to belief, I had to let those wounds of truth bring me and my pride to its knees where I would cry out for help in a world where none seemed available.
My eyes are weak, so I write in big letters just so I can read easier. So, they are not to imply yelling, as I have seen that used on the internet as a device to show emotion - but that is not my intent.
You said earlier that you would "love to believe in a greater power that truly had a plan for you". Well, the One that gives us our conscious being and the creation we stand within does have a plan of true love for our lives. The plan is for us to give up our selfish lives that lead to death for a new life where we live after the example He gave by giving His life for ours - showing us true love has a cost in giving, but is eternal. If the world would have true love for its brother and loosen the hands of greed and lust for power, there would be no poverty along with starvation, nakedness, loneliness, and homelessness. Mankind, as a race of beings, has not shown itself to be very loving, in truth, and only capable of the selfish, egotistical love that produces war and the fruit of the flesh; instead of the fruit of the Spirit of God which gives us love, patience, faith, kindness, longsuffering and self-control. God promises us a new nature that leads us into God's Agape love; if we ask for it, humbly, as He resists the proud and gives grace to those who are humble. The Bible says that He is as near as the next words that come from our mouths - either those of disbelief or those humbly asking for and receiving in life. What is more profound a language than life? And He has spoken to each man, initially, by giving that gift of life to us. It is ours to live as we please, either acknowledging Him and giving thanks for the continued life we enjoy by His hand or denying that He even exists by pushing away the truth, as that scripture I gave you from Romans does say. As a man, I had to give up my own foolish and selfish pride in order to receive the life God asks of me - to learn and practice true love as proper thanks for the life He gives - that of love; and our old nature fights against this knowledge and is offended by it till the day we receive new bodies to fit the new nature we have, as promised by God. What knowledge do we, as mankind, really have that keeps us from belieiving the truth about God and the existence we enjoy by His hand? Can we prove anything against the intelligent design of God's complex and beautiful creation or produce any life on our own that would compare to the intellect and power that He has made evident in the creation we exist in? No we can not, and if that offends the pride of man it just will have to be. Jesus is known as the "rock of offense" bringing with Him light and the sword that seperates the light from the darkenss.
The call goes out to all men and we are not forced to accept and follow. God gives us the power to believe even when we think that we cannot. I remember my first prayer said that very thing - that I did not know if I knew how to believe in Him, but I was honest when I prayed and somehow made it to this day where I am firmer in my faith, although I would not invite testing or boast in myself at all. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He gives us faith when we ask in humility. Faith in God, in Jesus, is not just another possession to be had, but is to be desired because He is the truth and the way and the life.
As Christians, we want to share, but know that it takes more than mere words to give another person a real knowledge and relationship with God. I try and share as best I can, but know that only God can give the increase. I hope you can come to know God even better than I know Him. That is my prayer for you.

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with ACTIONS and TRUTH. This then is how we KNOW that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.

Ro 10:8 Salvation that comes from trusting Christ—which is the message we preach—is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."

1Pe 2:8 And the Scriptures also say, "He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that will make them fall." They stumble because they do not listen to God’s word or obey it,
 
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fallenteardrop

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I believe that god is a greater power that was on this earth a long time ago to create ppl and make the world a better place and to help ppla and make them believe in themselves and ppl that dont believe end up doing stuip things and they get taken over by a lower power and god i s sum1 that wants us to make our lives sumthing and not a big nothing to go to school and get a good job and live in this world and not brake down and be taken outts this world by a bigger power not a less power (meaning urself)

i think god is there to make our lives a better thing and not sumthing bad....

<33Tiffy
 
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-Frank-

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l33tspock said:
"What is God?" I Believe god is nothing more than a means to an end. disprove please.
You ask us then tell us your answer?
First off, Biblically, if you look up "what" God is, you will find too much to take in in one sitting.

But from what you are telling us, it seems that you mean the generic "God" ie the concept of a God itself.
Just so you know, the only way this argument makes sense is if you approach it from the atheistic stand-point, so when you ask a Christian this, remember that fact. (The reason I say this is because atheists see this question as the end being before God, but the Christian sees God (the "means") before the "end". In fact, God placed the end in each of us).
God is not just an imaginary filling of this need of a thing that we call "God" in our lives. The very fact that there is a feeling that we "need" this thing is proof that there is a God. Who do you think put it there?

My $.02 after rafael's bill. :)
 
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Harlan Norris

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Ah, fudamentalist parents. I grew up in similar circumstances. Frankly I hated every minunite of it. Talk about pressure, and the constant of being judged. Looking back I realise that it was their love for me, that caused this outrageous behavior. Of course the source of my misery, just couldn't be real, in my mind at least. I denied God for most of my adult life. However just like you, the issue just wouldn't go away. My fundamentalist parents had given me a fundamental truth. That God does exist. We Christians often get it wrong. We judge, we condem, we point the finger. This more than any other trait, has caused defection in the ranks, and turned away possible converts. I honestly believe, that the purpose of Christianity, is to bring souls to Christ. When one does find his or her faith, their life will natureally change. Their behavior and attitude tward life will often be profoundly changed. The holy spirit works these miracles, not other Christians. You are on the right path. Keep searching.
 
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12volt_man

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l33tspock said:
I Believe god is nothing more than a means to an end.

What is the end?

disprove please.

When one makes such a statement, it is up to that person to demonstrate the validity of his statement, not up to the opposition to disprove it.

I just don't see how god could possibly be real, when everything I've seen points to the oposite.

What are these things that you've seen?

God cannot be seen, only felt personaly. Yet he is supposed to be able to create miracles. Of unkown unforseen nature. simply put, of a nature that when something goes good and we do not understand it we are allowed to say. A Miracle!

To say that God can "only [be] felt personally" implies that God's presence is subjective.

It's not. We can know God. We can see the effects of God's presence.

my assumation; god is not otherworldy or omnipitant. God is only in you.

What are you basing the assumption on?

If God is in us, then why is our nature to act in an Ungodly way?

If God is in us, then can we know God?
 
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PhilosopherDave

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l33tspock said:
What I am hearing is that we cannot comprehend god so therefore we should not try.

Yet we always know that god exists on the inside. And to deny him you are saying we are denying our salvation.

Yes, I suppose it does in a way come down to my choice as whether or not to believe this. But I have no inclination to believe that god or the devil will be waiting to take me in when I die. I can believe that "god" is a force of power inside, and offers comfort for your actions. But I cannot believe this _part of me_ has any say over my afterlife.

Some of you say it comes to a choice of whether I choose to believe. And your only comforting offer of support is that I am too feeble as a human to understand his grand plan and power. Why does god not wan't me to know but only hopes that I will believe? If I fail some test of gods because everything inside me is telling me that something isn't right about god. Then sure, I'd rather go to hell, I would not deceive myself so well as to stop pursuing what is most important to me.

Rafael- What do you mean when you say that all men know god at some point in their lives. What if I say I never have known the god you know, and I am not just decieving myself believing this. I know a personal "god" that I am almost certain none, or very few of you know.

Spock,

I was asking the same questions a few years ago. Fortunately, I've studied philosophy at a formal level, read many views on this subject and have come to the conclusion that it is up to God to 'draw' you/us to Himself. This 'drawing' process, however, is usually not by some empirical manifestation. (Even if it was, you could always counter by asking whether or not you thought your experience was a hallucination, Cartesian style.)

What you have to do is ask yourself, such as Aristotle might have done, as to what kind of person you want to become existentially. Putting myself into this context, I asked myself, and found that of all the philosophies and religions out there, Christianity appoximated most closely the ideals and values that I wanted to assimilate. More importantly, I see these ideals embodied in the conceptual figure of Jesus Christ, who in turn is described as divine by the Christian scriptures. I like Christ MORE than any other figure, such as Lao Tzu, or Buddha, or Krishna, etc. I choose to worship Him by my lifestyle.

Like you, I have a difficult time 'worshipping' an entity that I cannot cognitively engage, so I worship Him in my potential for the future and in my lifestlye.

As far as logic...well, philosophers such as Immanuel Kant, Soren Kierkagaard, and Blaise Pascal make a good case as to why human logic will fail to prove the existence of God...and from a non-biblical standpoint.

I think you are wanting a God who 'intervenes' in your life. I believe that He does, but it won't by necessity be in the way that gratifies you intellectually. God doesn't seem to be concerned as to how much He gratifies us in order to see us respond in a 'postive' way. So...if that is what you are waiting for, you be old and gray before you realize you are waiting for a train that just likely won't come in.
 
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