What is God required to do?

RND · Sep 22, 2008

In another thread it seems to be postulated that since there is death and destruction here on earth that somehow God isn't doing His job as He promised. Is the fact that people die an example of God not protecting those that die? Is that true?

Is God required to save any one from the catastrophes of life while we are still alive or do God's promises stem from a promise of new life?

1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Isn't it really true that it is God's abundant mercy that has given us again a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ? And that the lively hope is an inheritance that is incorruptible, undefiled that doesn't fade and which is reserved in Heaven for us?

But what about those that die without that assurance or knowledge of what God has done? Are they simply cast aside? Doesn't God care about them? Or can we trust that God knows what He is doing and that He knows who will hear His voice when He calls?

Does God's heart break from the reality of starving children in the world? Does God's heart break from the reality that there are some people that prevent necessary food stuffs to be delivered to starving children? Does God's heart only break for some and not others?

AzA · Sep 22, 2008

God is not required to do anything. Who's going to strong-arm Him? We'd stop existing if He stopped upholding.

RND · Sep 22, 2008

AzA said:
God is not required to do anything. Who's going to strong-arm Him? We'd stop existing if He stopped upholding.

Nice thoughts. Very good.

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

AzA · Sep 22, 2008

And what do you think the implications of that are?

(I'm curious about your Scottishness. Incoming message. Hold onto your tartan.)

RND · Sep 22, 2008

AzA said:
And what do you think the implications of that are?

(I'm curious about your Scottishness. Incoming message. Hold onto your tartan.)

Actually, I think it is evidence that God's love is so powerful that it's not that He can't or won't do something....I think He already has done something out of His perfect love.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

While we were still in rebellion to God and His perfect will He still poured out His love for us through Jesus Christ.

AzA · Sep 23, 2008

So to your mind, He has already done all He intends to do?
Would like to understand you before I engage you.

RND · Sep 23, 2008

AzA said:
So to your mind, He has already done all He intends to do?

He has done all that He intended to do. Past tense. God, through His Son Jesus Christ, has already reconciled the world to Himself. We are no longer enemies because through Jesus we have been brought back to the reality of what God's true love is all about. When we see the love that God has for us, clearly, through the life of Christ, we begin to reconcile ourselves to God.

Would like to understand you before I engage you.

That's probably a good idea!

Joe67 · Sep 23, 2008

Back to the physical suffering of the OP.

God is not the god of the dead. All live unto Him.

When the flesh suffers, the spirit turns to God.

When the flesh ceases, the spirit returns to God.

Nothing was said concerning soul.

The sharp Word of His mouth divides between soul and spirit.

Joe

RND · Sep 23, 2008

Joe67 said:
Back to the physical suffering of the OP.

God is not the god of the dead. All live unto Him.

When the flesh suffers, the spirit turns to God.

When the flesh ceases, the spirit returns to God.

Nothing was said concerning soul.

The sharp Word of His mouth divides between soul and spirit.

Joe

How does that address the OP?

Joe67 · Sep 23, 2008

RND said:
In another thread it seems to be postulated that since there is death and destruction here on earth that somehow God isn't doing His job as He promised. Is the fact that people die an example of God not protecting those that die? Is that true?

Is God required to save any one from the catastrophes of life while we are still alive or do God's promises stem from a promise of new life?

RND,

The purpose of God in the creation of man to bring forth a family for Him is bound up with our hearts and minds turning from the glory of the flesh to the joy of the holy Spirit in the fellowship of Jesus' sufferings.

Remember the rich man and Lazarus.

Until the heart is sprinkled from an evil conscience through the blood of Jesus, the joy of the holy Spirit in the fellowship of Jesus' sufferings is foolishness.

We are called to dwell among the devouring fire and the everlasting burnings. The resurrection will be a spiritual body.

Joe

RND · Sep 23, 2008

Joe67 said:
RND,

The purpose of God in the creation of man to bring forth a family for Him is bound up with our hearts and minds turning from the glory of the flesh to the joy of the holy Spirit in the fellowship of Jesus' sufferings.

Remember the rich man and Lazarus.

Until the heart is sprinkled from an evil conscience through the blood of Jesus, the joy of the holy Spirit in the fellowship of Jesus' sufferings is foolishness.

We are called to dwell among the devouring fire and the everlasting burnings. The resurrection will be a spiritual body.

Joe

No doubt. Would you say then that God has met His self-imposed requirement?

Kerwin · Sep 24, 2008

RND said:
In another thread it seems to be postulated that since there is death and destruction here on earth that somehow God isn't doing His job as He promised. Is the fact that people die an example of God not protecting those that die? Is that true?

Since the death and destruction in this world is the result of sin that accusation comes from an enabling spirit that does not want to suffer the consequences of their actions. All I can say is do not do the crime if you do not want to do the crime. I also point out that some suffer for the sins of others which is one reason why Jesus was killed as he did not sin. Still the bottom line is that death and destruction is in the world because of sin and God is striving to rescue all those that are willing to be rescued though the world itself is condemned.

Avonia · Sep 24, 2008

Kerwin said:
God is striving to rescue all those that are willing to be rescued though the world itself is condemned.

Why would someone be unwilling to be rescued?

Kerwin · Sep 25, 2008

Why would someone be unwilling to be rescued?

I believe because they are foolish. God states because they love evil.

[quote="Psalms 52:1-7"(NIV)] 1 Why do you boast of evil, you mighty man?
Why do you boast all day long,
you who are a disgrace in the eyes of God?
2 Your tongue plots destruction;
it is like a sharpened razor,
you who practice deceit.
3 You love evil rather than good,
falsehood rather than speaking the truth.
Selah
4 You love every harmful word,
O you deceitful tongue!
5 Surely God will bring you down to everlasting ruin:
He will snatch you up and tear you from your tent;
he will uproot you from the land of the living.
Selah
6 The righteous will see and fear;
they will laugh at him, saying,
7 "Here now is the man
who did not make God his stronghold
but trusted in his great wealth
and grew strong by destroying others!"
[/quote]

RND · Sep 25, 2008

Kerwin said:
Since the death and destruction in this world is the result of sin that accusation comes from an enabling spirit that does not want to suffer the consequences of their actions.

How does this relate then to our inherent sin nature that is part of our DNA?

All I can say is do not do the crime if you do not want to do the crime.

Was this Christ's attitude on the cross?

I also point out that some suffer for the sins of others which is one reason why Jesus was killed as he did not sin.

Don't we all at some point suffer because of the sins of others that we didn't generate? Conversely, don't we cause suffering in the lives of others because of the sin we generate and are responsible for?

Still the bottom line is that death and destruction is in the world because of sin and God is striving to rescue all those that are willing to be rescued though the world itself is condemned.

Indeed.

RND · Sep 25, 2008

Why would someone be unwilling to be rescued?

Kerwin said:
I believe because they are foolish. God states because they love evil.

Could foolishness be a condition caused by deception? Is God able to distinguish the heart of the victim in this continuing tragedy of sin?

Kerwin · Sep 25, 2008

RND said:
How does this relate then to our inherent sin nature that is part of our DNA?

I am not quite sure what you mean so if I say the same thing while appear to think I am disagreeing then please forgive me. It is not our inherent nature to sin though perhaps some temptation comes from our body or mind. Jesus himself had a body just like ours and he was also tempted just like us but he did not give into sin. I would say that it is our spirit that is corrupt and so chases after temptation and gives birth to sin. It is for this reason God sent Jesus to die for us and give a new spirit to those who believe and are baptized.

RND said:
Was this Christ's attitude on the cross?

I am convinced that Jesus attitude is the same on and off the cross and he is very clear that he supports justice as well as mercy. I think this parable is a good example.

Luke 13:6-8(NIV) said:
6Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'

"

As you can see God chooses to suffer the evil we do but even His anger is aroused after a time. This world is the result of God suffering our evil and frankly I am glad He chooses to do so.

RND said:
Don't we all at some point suffer because of the sins of others that we didn't generate? Conversely, don't we cause suffering in the lives of others because of the sin we generate and are responsible for?

For all but a few examples I would agree with you. Those exceptions include Jesus and possibly some children still in their mothers wombs and maybe some out as I have no idea when a human being first commits their first sin.

RND said:
Could foolishness be a condition caused by deception? Is God able to distinguish the heart of the victim in this continuing tragedy of sin?

I am not sure what you are asking for everyone, except Jesus, is deceived as points in their lives and yet there are those whose eyes will be opened because they hunger and thirst for righteousness and those who reject the truth because they love evil. God will sort them out on judgment day but He always knows His people.

Avonia · Sep 25, 2008

Kerwin said:
Why would someone be unwilling to be rescued?

I believe because they are foolish. God states because they love evil.

So the reason they refuse rescue is caused by the thing they need rescuing from?

RND · Sep 25, 2008

Kerwin said:
I am not quite sure what you mean so if I say the same thing while appear to think I am disagreeing then please forgive me. It is not our inherent nature to sin though perhaps some temptation comes from our body or mind. Jesus himself had a body just like ours and he was also tempted just like us but he did not give into sin. I would say that it is our spirit that is corrupt and so chases after temptation and gives birth to sin. It is for this reason God sent Jesus to die for us and give a new spirit to those who believe and are baptized.

Kerwin, do you have children? If so, you know that a two-year old knows how to lie and attempt to deceive without any instruction on your part. That's the "inherent" nature to sin that I was referring to. That type of sin, obviously, is hardwired into our computer.

If our "spirit" is corrupt and "chases" after sin how do you explain then the inherent nature of the human condition? If this is the sole reason that God sent Jesus to die on the cross why didn't God simply rewire the human race?

I am convinced that Jesus’ attitude is the same on and off the cross and he is very clear that he supports justice as well as mercy. I think this parable is a good example.

6Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'

As you can see God chooses to suffer the evil we do but even His anger is aroused after a time. This world is the result of God suffering our evil and frankly I am glad He chooses to do so.

Has the tree born fruit? Was it necessary to cut the tree down or was the man that treated it's roots (Jesus) eventfully successful? If Jesus' attitude is the same on and off the cross, why didn't He pick up a stone and chuck it at the woman caught in adultery - seeing He was the only one in the crowd that was without sin?

For all but a few examples I would agree with you. Those exceptions include Jesus and possibly some children still in their mother’s wombs and maybe some out as I have no idea when a human being first commits their first sin.

That's a good example. Even unborn children suffer the effects of sin at the hands of another. As for when a human being commits their first sin I think we and all agree it is before birth see that we are "conceived in sin."

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Yet, God knows this and "covers" us from the beginning.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

I am not sure what you are asking for everyone, except Jesus, is deceived as points in their lives and yet there are those whose eyes will be opened because they hunger and thirst for righteousness and those who reject the truth because they love evil. God will sort them out on judgment day but He always knows His people.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. For example, is God able to distinguish the character of someone that is deceived into an expanded life of sin, where the candle of life is burned at both ends; caused from the effects of running away from the very source of life that the sinner was told "love me or burn?"

Is God powerful enough to know the difference? Was Christ's example on the cross a sufficient enough example?

Kerwin · Sep 26, 2008

Avonia said:
So the reason they refuse rescue is caused by the thing they need rescuing from?

They refuse rescue because they love the thing they need rescuing from. Jesus made a promise in Matthew 5 to those that desired rescue and that promise is fulfilled but those who do not hunger and thirst will see not need to eat and drink.

Matthew 5(NIV) said:
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

What is God required to do?

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